Do Catholic priests have the authority to forgive sins on earth?

[david_ruiz]

Yes, you are “in union with His flesh” when you do corporal works of mercy, in the same way that I am “in union with my husband” when I serve him. But I am not intimately joined to him when I do this. It is only through this magnificent One Flesh Union that we are able to achieve the sublime union that was meant for us. And meant for man and God, too.

Got it ,thanks.

 

[david_ruiz]

JL: [Psalm69: I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother’s children.] Christ has become a stranger and an alien, to his mother=Israel’s children. Christ’s brothers the sons of Israel, from whom he is estranged as they rejected him making him an alien. Ps69:8 is a messianic prophecy that Israel will reject Christ. Jn1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Mary had no other natural children as this prophecy tells us. Ezek 44:1 Then the man brought me back to THE OUTER GATE OF THE SANCTUARY, the one FACING EAST, and it was shut. 2 THE LORD SAID to me, THIS GATE IS TO REMAIN SHUT. IT MUST NOT BE OPENED; NO ONE MAY ENTER THROUGH IT. It is to remain shut BECAUSE THE LORD, THE GOD OF ISRAEL, HAS ENTERED THROUGH IT. [The Lord God has entered through Mary the gate of heaven and no one else is to enter thru that gate. Just as no one was to enter into the OT Ark of the Covenant, so no one is to enter Mary the Ark of the NT. The Fathers called Mary the gate of heaven and the ark of the covenant.

Thank-you .I agree it is Israel but you have not answered the progression of rejection so clear in scripture ,from Israel ,to brethren .to his own house .“House” must be answered. He had a “house” and people knew of His house , of His mother and brethren -they knew their names.
[/QUOTE]

 

[david_ruiz]

There is only one priesthood in the NT.

 

[david_ruiz]

I think this is a separation that exists in your mind, David.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Maybe the person that ask this question can not read or does not understand what the bible is saying have him/her read Jn20-23 and Jn 20-23…So yes the priest haas the power from God to forgive sin,Jesus breathed two time in all the bible

 

[david_ruiz]

Maybe the person that ask this question can not read or does not understand what the bible is saying have him/her read Jn20-23 and Jn 20-23…So yes the priest haas the power from God to forgive sin,Jesus breathed two time in all the bible

Thank-you .The question is how ? There is no evidence they held confession, or were confessors. There is evidence for remission of sins (also a commission) thru the preaching of the gospel -much evidence.The rest evolved.

 

[jlhargus]

Thank-you .I agree it is Israel but you have not answered the progression of rejection so clear in scripture ,from Israel ,to brethren .to his own house .“House” must be answered. He had a “house” and people knew of His house , of His mother and brethren -they knew their names.

JL: Your so called so clear progression does not mean Mary had other children. Even his kin didn’t reject him and Mary (house) certainly didn’t. James was later bishop of Jerusalem, hardly a position for a real son who rejected his own Mother. Allowing another to take care of her. We find them all in the upper room at Pentecost. [Acts1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.] Do you suppose Jesus on the cross didn’t know they would be in the upper room? Israel his mother’s children as a nation did reject him and still do.

Mary had no other natural children as this prophecy tells us. Ezek 44:1 Then the man brought me back to THE OUTER GATE OF THE SANCTUARY, the one FACING EAST, and it was shut. 2 THE LORD SAID to me, THIS GATE IS TO REMAIN SHUT. IT MUST NOT BE OPENED; NO ONE MAY ENTER THROUGH IT. It is to remain shut BECAUSE THE LORD, THE GOD OF ISRAEL, HAS ENTERED THROUGH IT. The Lord God has entered through Mary the gate of heaven and no one else is to enter thru that gate. Just as no one was to enter into the OT Ark of the Covenant, so no one is to enter Mary the Ark of the NT. The Fathers called Mary the gate of heaven and the ark of the covenant.

 

[jlhargus]

Thank-you .The question is how ?

JL: The HOW is known thru Apostolic Tradition and how confession was lived out in the Church. The Church was up and running, preaching, converting, baptizing, forgiving sins, at lest twenty years, before the first word of the NT was penned. Not to mention three hundred years before the NT canon was recognized, so there goes sola scriptura. The how of the sacraments are left to the Church. The elements, signs cannot be changed. By the way can you give me evidence from scripture telling us exactly HOW to baptize?

There is no evidence they held confession, or were confessors.There is evidence for remission of sins (also a commission) thru the preaching of the gospel -much evidence.The rest evolved.

JL: I notice you didn’t present ANY EVIDENCE for that much evidence. Yes there is evidence for remissions of sins thru baptism, however the sacrament of confess is for sins commited after baptism.

Not even the apostles, given the power to bind and loose, with the breathed power of the Holy Spirit, to give life to a dead sinful soul, could forgive sins before one is BORN AGAIN thru baptism. All they or we can do is give the gospel, the rest is up to the Holy Spirit and the individual to repent, be baptized for remission of sins and receive the Holy Spirit, Acts2:37-39. It is the sacrament of baptism and the action of the Holy Spirit, which washes away sin, giving remission and new BIRTH to a child of God. The sacrament of confession remits sins committed after one is BORN AGAIN thru baptism.

In the beginning confession was made publically, for grave sins publicly known, in the assembly and the apostles passed judgement. We see Peter doing this, remember Ananias and his wife Sapphira in Acts5:1-11. They both agreed to lie to the Church about how much they sold their land for and kept some of the money saying they gave it all to the Church. They were both given a change to confess their sins, but instead repeated the lie.

Notice who did they lie to, [Acts5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart **to LIE TO THE HOLY GHOST, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not LIED unto men, but UNTO GOD.] They lied to the Holy Ghost who IS GOD. Also Peter said they did not lie to men but to God, yet they confessed that lie to the Church. So when we confess our sins to the priest we are confessing to God. Peter makes the judgement on each person their sins were RETAINED.

Acts5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? THOU HAST NOT LIED UNTO MEN, BUT UNTO GOD.

Acts5:9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that YE HAVE AGREED together TO TEMPT THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD? behold, THE FEET of them WHICH have BURIED THY HUSBAND are at the door, and SHALL CARRY THEE OUT.

[Jms5:14 **Is any sick among you? let him CALL FOR THE ELDERS OF THE CHURCH and LET THEM PRAY OVER HIM ANOINTING HIM WITH OIL in the name of the Lord 15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick and the Lord shall raise him up and IF HE HAVE COMMITTED SINS THEY SHALL BE FORGIVEN HIM] This sacrament is called Anointing of the Sick. We see sins are also forgiven here. It is the elders=priest who anoint and forgive sins that is a function of a priest.

Even in the OT confessION to a priest was done.

Lv 5:4 Or if a person thoughtlessly takes an oath to do anything, whether good or evil in any matter one might carelessly swear about even though he is unaware of it, in any case when he learns of it he will be guilty. 5 When anyone is guilty in any of these ways, he must confess in what way he has sinned 6 and, as a penalty for the sin he has committed, he must bring to the LORD a female lamb or goat from the flock as a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin.

 

[jlhargus]

Thank-you .The question is how ?

JL: The HOW is known thru Apostolic Tradition and how confession was lived out in the Church. The Church was up and running, preaching, converting, baptizing, forgiving sins, at lest twenty years, before the first word of the NT was penned. Not to mention three hundred years before the NT canon was recognized, so there goes sola scriptura. The how of the sacraments are left to the Church. The elements, signs cannot be changed. By the way can you give me evidence from scripture telling us exactly HOW to baptize?

There is no evidence they held confession, or were confessors.There is evidence for remission of sins (also a commission) thru the preaching of the gospel -much evidence.The rest evolved.

JL: I notice you didn’t present ANY EVIDENCE for that much evidence. Yes there is evidence for remissions of sins thru baptism, however the sacrament of confess is for sins commited after baptism.

Not even the apostles, given the power to bind and loose, with the breathed power of the Holy Spirit, to give life to a dead sinful soul, could forgive sins before one is BORN AGAIN thru baptism. All they or we can do is give the gospel, the rest is up to the Holy Spirit and the individual to repent, be baptized for remission of sins and receive the Holy Spirit, Acts2:37-39. It is the sacrament of baptism and the action of the Holy Spirit, which washes away sin, giving remission and new BIRTH to a child of God. The sacrament of confession remits sins committed after one is BORN AGAIN thru baptism.

In the beginning confession was made publically, for grave sin publically known, in the assembly and the apostles passed judgement. We see Peter doing this, remember Ananias and his wife Sapphira in Acts5:1-11. They both agreed to lie to the Church about how much they sold their land for and kept some of the money saying they gave it all to the Church. They were both given a change to confess their sins, but instead repeated the lie.

Notice who did they lie to, [Acts5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart **to LIE TO THE HOLY GHOST, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not LIED unto men, but UNTO GOD.] They lied to the Holy Ghost who IS GOD. Also Peter said they did not lie to men but to God, yet they confessed that lie to the Church. So when we confess our sins to the priest we are confessing to God. Peter makes the judgement on each person their sins were RETAINED.

[Jms5:14 **Is any sick among you? let him CALL FOR THE ELDERS OF THE CHURCH and LET THEM PRAY OVER HIM ANOINTING HIM WITH OIL in the name of the Lord 15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick and the Lord shall raise him up and IF HE HAVE COMMITTED SINS THEY SHALL BE FORGIVEN HIM] This sacrament is called Anointing of the Sick. We see sins are also forgiven here. It is the elders=priest who anoint and forgive sins that is a function of a priest.

Even in the OT confessION to a priest was done.

Lv 5:4 Or if a person thoughtlessly takes an oath to do anything, whether good or evil in any matter one might carelessly swear about even though he is unaware of it, in any case when he learns of it he will be guilty. 5 When anyone is guilty in any of these ways, he must confess in what way he has sinned 6 and, as a penalty for the sin he has committed, he must bring to the LORD a female lamb or goat from the flock as a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin.

 

[PRmerger]

Thank-you .The question is how ? There is no evidence they held confession, or were confessors. There is evidence for remission of sins (also a commission) thru the preaching of the gospel -much evidence.The rest evolved.

Jesus told his apostles “whose sins you forgive they are forgiven; whose sins you retain they are retained.”

How do they know someone’s sins unless someone *confesses *them to the apostles?

 

[1beleevr]

guanophore;7398393:

I said it precisely because I know it is Catholic dogma .and would wish it would have stopped there -universal priesthood 'I have not erred one bit on what Catholicism is.

Sorry ,I was not specific enough for you.When I grew up He was placed in a tabernacle which had a door and then a veil. 99% of the time the priest brought Him out if needed at Mass and back in again.From my point of view , that was a very special thing ,like going into the holy of holies (another name for tabernacle). I believe I am not in error . Again,you push me to specifics ,which is good ,though you give none,but someone else charitably did. For the most part the priest goes into the tabernacle .I have never seen anyone else do it.I knew the consecrated host could be administered by trained laity ,and now I know can also go into the tabernacle for the host per priests oversight /deputizing etc.

So are you saying a Mass and my sunday service with communion are just like yours as far as the role and attitude of laity and pastor/priest relationships ? So true ,but we have been discussing just what the roles are and for whom and by whom . Listening to you ,one would think there is no difference across Christendom on these issues.

Again ,are you church’s ministers role identical to my church’s ?

Don’t tire so fast .You know I have mentioned them countless times ,and you keep forgetting .My views can be held together and can “compute”. In fact, you are reacting to my citing of historical evidence for a ministerial role -that of presidents over a church service.

Guan probably needs to read Hebrews 4:16 again!

 

[1beleevr]

Maybe the person that ask this question can not read or does not understand what the bible is saying have him/her read Jn20-23 and Jn 20-23…So yes the priest haas the power from God to forgive sin,Jesus breathed two time in all the bible

The answer to this worn out argument is: No, the priests do not have the authority to forgive sins, even if the apostles did! They can listen to them, but that’s the extent of it! God forgives sin!

 

[1beleevr]

Mary had no other natural children as this prophecy tells us. Ezek 44:1 Then the man brought me back to THE OUTER GATE OF THE SANCTUARY, the one FACING EAST, and it was shut. 2 THE LORD SAID to me, THIS GATE IS TO REMAIN SHUT. IT MUST NOT BE OPENED; NO ONE MAY ENTER THROUGH IT. It is to remain shut BECAUSE THE LORD, THE GOD OF ISRAEL, HAS ENTERED THROUGH IT. [The Lord God has entered through Mary the gate of heaven and no one else is to enter thru that gate. Just as no one was to enter into the OT Ark of the Covenant, so no one is to enter Mary the Ark of the NT. The Father called Mary the gate of heaven and the ark of the covenant. Jn1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Hb9:4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ARK CONTAINED the gold jar of MANNA, AARON’S STAFF that had budded, and the stone TABLETS OF THE COVENANT.

Mary the living ark would contain, in her womb, the real living Word of God, CHRIST, the real living Bread of Life, CHRIST, and the real living High Priest, CHRIST. Not just symbols as the ark made by hands contained, but the actual realities. As our Lord says in Ex25:22 THERE, ABOVE THE COVER BETWEEN THE TWO CHERUBIM THAT ARE OVER THE ARK OF THE TESTIMONY, I WILL MEET WITH YOU AND GIVE YOU ALL MY COMMANDS FOR THE ISRAELITES.

2 MCABS 2:5 And when Jeremy came thither he found an hollow cave wherein he laid the tabernacle and the ark and the altar of incense and so stopped the door 6 And some of those that followed him came to mark the way but they could not find it 7 Which when Jeremy perceived he blamed them saying As for THAT PLACE IT SHALL BE UNKNOWN UNTILL THE TIME THAT GOD GATHER HIS PEOPLE again TOGETHER AND RECEIVE THEM UNTO MERCY. 8 THEN SHALL THE LORD SHEW THEM THESE THINGS AND THE GLORY OF THE LORD SHALL APPEAR AND THE CLOUD ALSO as it was shewed under Moses and as when Solomon desired that the place might be honourably sanctified

EX 40:34 Then** a cloud covered the tent of the congregation and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle

35 And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation because the cloud abode thereon and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle

LK 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her** The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee** therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God

2 SAM 6:2 And David arose and went with all the people that were with him from Baale of Judah to bring up from thence the ark of God whose name is called by the name of the LORD of hosts that dwelleth between the cherubims

LK 1:39 **And Mary arose **in those days **and went **into the hill country with haste **into a city of Juda **

2 SAM 6:9 **And David was afraid **of the LORD that day and said How shall the ark of the LORD come to me?

LK 1:30 And the angel said unto her **Fear not Mary **for thou hast found favour with God

2 SAM 6:9 And David was afraid of the LORD that day and said How shall the ark of the LORD come to me?
LK 1:43 And whence is this to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

2 SAM 6:16 And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David Michal Saul’s daughter looked through a window and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD and she despised him in her heart

LK 1:44 For lo as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears** the babe leaped in my womb for joy **

2 SAM 6:18 And as soon as David had made an end of offering burnt offerings and peace offerings** he blessed the people in the name of the LORD** of hosts

LK 1:45 And** blessed is she that believed **for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord

2 SAM 6:11 And the ark of the LORD continued in the house of Obededom the Gittite three months: and the LORD blessed Obededom and all his household

LK 1:56 **And Mary abode with her about three months **and returned to her own house

Hb10:1 For the law having a SHADOW of good things to come, and NOT THE VERY IMAGE OF THINGS, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

This is such a broad analogy for Mary not having other children, it borders on ludicrous! Of course she was a virgin before Christ’s birth, and Joseph did not have relations with her until AFTER the birth(amount of time afterwards not clear)of Christ. But using this verse, ad nauseum is grasping at straws! It is the East Gate of the Temple, for crying out loud! Isn’t this the one Christ will return through when He comes back?

 

[1beleevr]

I respect ALL clergy, even the ones I disagree with! Still doesn’t mean they can forgive sins. Respect is a two way street!

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Beleevr,
Apparently, Scripture does not convince you too much. What is YOUR personal interpretation of John 20:23 and Matthew 16:19 (in light of Isaiah 22:22) and what the keys ACTUALLY mean?

And nice “argument” against his proof. “You are wrong” is the BEST grabbing-at-straws argument. In any case, I would hardly consider a post of that size with biblical foreshadowings, reasonable parallels and a logical conclusion to be “grabbing at straws” especially when the argument is directed towards. Sola Scriptura advocates (I am guessing that is the case here). Nor would anybody else if they actually understood the argument.

Is it just by chance that there are that many parallels as Mary being the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament? Do you really think that it is “ludicrous” when all the evidence WE need to believe it is right there AND we cite it for you? If you think it is all by chance that there ARE parallels, then that is fine. You actually have a legitimate reason to call us ludicrous. Be like atheists… But do not call us ludicrous if you provide no argument or think it is NOT by chance. Just say, “I do not agree and here is why…” And you are wrong about the “until AFTER” part because all it says is “until” which means just that. You added the “after” part. According to the modern assumption of “until” that she DID, then you are saying that it happened AT THAT POINT where the event marked “until” is. And I felt ridiculously blasphemous just saying that so you better get my point. You Sola Scriptura advocates get furious when we say stuff that “is not in the Bible” but you all do the same things. It does not say she sinned but you believe it. It does not say she had other sons but you believe it. It does not say “Mother of God” but you do NOT believe it. PICK ONE! Makes me think that you do not believe these things BECAUSE they are Catholic doctrine.

Anyway, a person does not understand the graces received from the Sacrament of Reconciliation (not to mention the other Sacraments especially the Eucharist) unless they have done it.

Jesus gave the Apostles the authority. Not sure what the confusion is here. Either Jesus can give them the authority or He cannot. In light of Him being GOD, we say He can. Now, either He DID give it to them or He did not. According to John and Matthew (see cited verse above), He did. So, He can and He did. This is why we believe in the authority of the Church. Among other things, but Jesus breathing the Holy Spirit on them and apostolic succession are the two big ones. Any other proof you need?

 

[Cat_Herder]

O.K. but I disagree, for Paul says a priest is for sacrifices ,and we are done with sacrifices.A presbyter is not associated with "sacrifices ,but for other church administrations. .

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 12:1[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Philippians 4:18[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Peter 2:5[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Col 1:24[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[guanophore]

Who are the elders?

They elders (presbyteros) were the faithful men appointed by the bishops that were able to teach others also.

Were the early church fathers the authority for what we believe today?

Clearly not for those who have departed from the Apostolic faith, as you have. They are authoritative for us because they demonstrate how the Scriptures were understood, and faithfully preserve the Teachings as they were handed down by the Apostles. They create significant problems to "bible christians’ because they are proof that the Apostles believed and taught differently than bible christians do today.

Do non-catholic elders have the same God given authority as catholic elders?

In some matters, yes. However, there is a difference of duties in the Church of God, as the NT clearly states. Not all have the same gift, or the same calling, or the same responsibility. For example, teachers are judged with greater strictness, and shepherds must give an account of the souls under their care.

Am I righteous because of Christ’s work on the Cross? Are you?

Yes, we are all made righteous by the shed blood of Christ. But this passage references a state of sanctity (holiness). We are all cleansed by His blood, but some have been transformed into His image and likeness more than others. Those who walk closer to the Lord have their prayers heard better. Their prayers are not hindered by various sins and shortcomings in their life.

Can Protestant pastors forgive sins?

Yes, of course! We are all called upon to forgive sins, as is clear in the Lord’s prayer. However, only those who are properly ordained can forgive sins in God’s name,a nd represent the Church in that role of reconciliation.

I don’t believe that anyone can glean from James 5:14-17, that we are to go to a priest for confession; sorry!

You are quite right, and this demonstrates one of the main differences between Bible Christians and those who receive the Apostolic faith that is handed down through the paradosis. We receive our faith from those to whom it was entrusted, and through whom God promised to preserve it infallibly.

We are not at liberty or saddled with the limitations of “gleaning” the faith from various scriptures. This method is a modern evangelical innovation, and is not the means by which God intended the faith to be transmitted.

 

[Cat_Herder]

This is such a broad analogy for Mary not having other children, it borders on ludicrous! Of course she was a virgin before Christ’s birth, and Joseph did not have relations with her until AFTER the birth(amount of time afterwards not clear)of Christ. But using this verse, ad nauseum is grasping at straws! It is the East Gate of the Temple, for crying out loud! Isn’t this the one Christ will return through when He comes back?

Many, many people passed through the East Gate during its existence. That (and the fact it no longer exists) disqualifies it from being the one Ezekiel is referring to.

[BIBLEDRB]Ezekiel 44:2[/BIBLEDRB]

The East Gate was a mere shadow of the true gate, Mary’s womb; just as the Ark was a mere shadow of Mary Herself, and Moses a mere shadow of Jesus. The OT speaks only in terms of types, not fulfillments.

[BIBLEDRB]Hebrews 10:1[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[PRmerger]

God forgives sin!

Yes, indeed, God forgives sins, but he uses human beings as his agents.

Just like God creates babies, but he uses human beings as his agents. Babies just don’t appear without human activity to re-produce them.

Just like God makes miracles, but he uses human being as his agents. See Acts 19.

[BIBLEDRB]Acts 19:12[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[guanophore]

The proper Greek is not “sins” but “faults” , "Confess your faults one to another " .

Nice try, David, but this won’t work. The Gk is tas hamartias

This is the same word Jesus used in John 8:24
24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for you will die in your sins unless you believe that I am he."

These are more than “faults” or “problems”. They are deadly sins, that, if unconfessed, will cause eternal death.

It does not say confess to a priest , but I suppose it could include him also

I agree with you, this passage does not say one must confess to a priest. This passage indicates that, when one is sick, one should call for the priests, and that the priest will annoint him, so he can be healed. The Apostles taught that confession is the way that our sins are healed.

And since God gave the power on earth to these men to forgive sins in His name, why would one want to confess to someone else, who did not have this power? I agree with you, it is helpful to tell your problems to others, and to confess your faults (this is what most of modern day psychotherapy is about) but if a person has the opportunity to confess these potentially deadly matters to the one commissioned by God to annoint and heal him, why would you not take advantage of such a gift? For me, it was pride, and shame.

Again , there is no instance in scripture of an officer/priest being confessor (Paul does forgive a personal offence).

You are right, Paul did forgive sins that were personal offenses against himself, but he also forgave sins “in the person of Christ”. In this way, Apostle discerns whether to forgive or retain the sin on behalf of God, and the Church. This is something quite different than the everyday sins we forgive one another for when we are in prayer.

There is historical evidence that James 5:16 was followed more closely in the early church than today’s Catholic practice of the confessional.

Perhaps you are not willing to look at the evidence, or accept it, but your refusal to acknowledge it does not make it go away. The Apostolic authority given to the bishops to forgive and retain sins has been observed in the Church since apostolic times.

You are right that there was not a “confessional”. In the beginning, confession was public. Soon, the Church learned that it could be damaging for people to confess their sins in front of the whole assembly, so more private means were provided to the faithful.