Do Catholics and other Christians have to obey the Old Testament law?

[meltzerboy2]

All very good; however, let’s be clear that the rejection of the New Covenant by some Jews did not lead to Jesus’ Passion, as you appear to suggest. Jesus’ Passion was a necessary event, so essential in fact that without it, the religion of Christianity and Salvation history as we know it today would not have occurred. And the Passion predated the biblical New Covenant.

 

[BartholomewB]

A Catholic can be a Christian but a Christian cannot be a Catholic.

That’s a contradiction.
Start with the question, “Can there be a person who is both Christian and Catholic?”
You are answering “Yes” and “No” at the same time.
In the first half of your statement, you answer “Yes, there can be such a person”.
In the second half, you answer “No, there can’t be such a person.”

The truth of the matter is that all Catholics are Christians but not all Christians are Catholics.

 

[EndTimes]

" let’s be clear that the rejection of the New Covenant by some Jews did not lead to Jesus’ Passion, as you appear to suggest. Jesus’ Passion was a necessary event… "

Necessary or not does not eradicate the fact that the Jewish Leadership Sentenced Jesus to Death - which in turn, yes, led to his death…

Nostre Aetate My bold for emphasis

As Holy Scripture testifies, Jerusalem did not recognize the time of her visitation,(9) nor did the Jews in large number, accept the Gospel; indeed not a few opposed its spreading.(10) Nevertheless, God holds the Jews most dear for the sake of their Fathers; He does not repent of the gifts He makes or of the calls He issues-such is the witness of the Apostle.(11) In company with the Prophets and the same Apostle, the Church awaits that day, known to God alone, on which all peoples will address the Lord in a single voice and “serve him shoulder to shoulder” (Soph. 3:9).(12)

Since the spiritual patrimony common to Christians and Jews is thus so great, this sacred synod wants to foster and recommend that mutual understanding and respect which is the fruit, above all, of biblical and theological studies as well as of fraternal dialogues.

True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ;(13) still, what happened in His passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today. Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures. All should see to it, then, that in catechetical work or in the preaching of the word of God they do not teach anything that does not conform to the truth of the Gospel and the spirit of Christ.

REF: http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...ts/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

 

[francisca.chapter3]

The Mosaic Law was Law for those who followed Moses…

Jesus fulfilled them… And now - and for Everyone - Faith in Jesus with the Guidance of God’s Holy Spirit - is the Way to Salvation…

This is a good answer.

I’d like to quote St. Paul in his epistle to the romans. In this passage, St. Paul compare our adherence to moses law to an analogy of married woman.

Romans 7

1 Do you not know, brothers and sisters for I am speaking to those who know the law, that the law is binding on a person only during that person’s lifetime?
2 Thus a married woman is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives; but if her husband dies, she is discharged from the law concerning the husband.
3 Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man, she is not an adulteress.
4 In the same way, my friends, you have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God.
5 While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we are slaves not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit.

Our secular law still use some of moses law principles. For example an eye for an eye: if one owe somebody $100 he need to return the same amount. But moses religuous observance, we no longer need to adhere to those.

 

[fhansen]

Am I wrong to think the Old Testament Laws are only guidelines for Catholic’s?

From the catechism:

121 The Old Testament is an indispensable part of Sacred Scripture. Its books are divinely inspired and retain a permanent value,92 for the Old Covenant has never been revoked.

1963 According to Christian tradition, the Law is holy, spiritual, and good,14 yet still imperfect. Like a tutor15 it shows what must be done, but does not of itself give the strength, the grace of the Spirit, to fulfill it. Because of sin, which it cannot remove, it remains a law of bondage. According to St. Paul, its special function is to denounce and disclose sin , which constitutes a “law of concupiscence” in the human heart.16 However, the Law remains the first stage on the way to the kingdom. It prepares and disposes the chosen people and each Christian for conversion and faith in the Savior God. It provides a teaching which endures for ever, like the Word of God.

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."

2072 Since they express man’s fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations. They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. The Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.

The New Covenant, which places man “under grace” rather than “under the law”, is meant to allow us to fulfill the law by the Spirit, with the grace of God as we enter communion with Him. This is the authentic means to obedience.

 

[Elf01]

A Catholic can be a Christian but a Christian cannot be a Catholic. That’s not to mean any disrespect.

A Catholic is a Christian but a Christian may not be a Catholic is what I hope you were trying to say.

 

[Dan_Defender]

But we are allowed to eat bacon now.

Yes. We also do not have to ritually slaughter a lamb on the eve of Passover

 

[meltzerboy2]

This is incorrect because the Jewish leadership did not have the authority to sentence Jesus to death. It is statements like this, initially promulgated by the Church, that have led to centuries of antisemitism and persecution of Jews for the worst possible crime imaginable, namely, deicide. Too many people even today believe this. Further, as noted previously, the Gospel of the New Testament was written by the Apostles many years after the Passion of Jesus, not before. Thus, the rejection of the Gospel by Jews cannot have led to the Passion, as you previously stated.

While mutual respect between Christianity and Judaism is the ideal (and I would expand that to mutual respect between all religions as well as atheism), Jews have nothing to apologize for in regard to the Passion of Jesus. Let’s start with that premise for the sake of good will between future generations of Christians and Jews.

 

[Justin_Mary]

Am I wrong to think the Old Testament Laws are only guidelines for Catholic’s?

Yes. You’re wrong, they aren’t guidelines. They are the way to true life in the spirit.

Don’t think of the 10 commandments as blocking you from living, but as the path to true living.

 

[EndTimes]

“This is incorrect because the Jewish leadership did not have the authority to sentence Jesus to death.”

In Brief…

No. Not according to Sacred Scriptures/NT/Gospel…

And Catholic Teaching teaches that Scriptures are the very WORD/Jesus Christ - of God, whose Scribes were inspired by God’s Holy Spirit and connect w/the initial Oral Teachings

REF: CCC - ARTICLE 3 - SACRED SCRIPTURE
I. CHRIST - THE UNIQUE WORD OF SACRED SCRIPTURE
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a3.htm

========

“It is statements like this, initially promulgated by the Church, that have led to centuries of antisemitism.”

That’s a very serious allegation being leveled against The Teachings of The Church aka The Church… and therefore, although very understandable within our context, it’s unacceptable

Please… Nothing in my words demand that Jews apologize for Jesus’ Passion.

The Church and I have made it very clear … and I’ll repost it again from Nostre Aetate…

what happened in His passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today.

REF: DECLARATION ON THE RELATION OF THE CHURCH TO NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS
NOSTRA AETATE PROCLAIMED BY HIS HOLINESS POPE PAUL VI
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...ts/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

…

Perhaps we should agree that we probably agree on many things but not everything

 

[meltzerboy2]

I apologize if I was too harsh against the Church and you.

 

[De_Maria]

All very good; however, let’s be clear that the rejection of the New Covenant by some Jews did not lead to Jesus’ Passion,

Yes. I’m afraid it did.

as you appear to suggest. Jesus’ Passion was a necessary event,

No, it wasn’t. I believe that had the Jews recognized the Divinity of Christ, we would be living in an unimaginably beautiful world, today.

But, there’s no way to know.

so essential in fact that without it, the religion of Christianity and Salvation history as we know it today would not have occurred.

“As we know it” are the key words in that phrase.

And the Passion predated the biblical New Covenant.

No. The Passion was prophecied. But prophecy has a purpose. Remember that the destruction of Nineveh was prophecied by Jonah. But the Ninevites repented.

What might have happened had the Jews done the same?

 

[meltzerboy2]

Are you saying that Jesus did not have to suffer and die to redeem mankind for its sins? If the Jews had accepted the divinity of Jesus (since you believe they were instrumental in His Passion), He would not have been crucified and resurrected, so, in that case, what would have been the essential purpose of Christianity as distinct from Judaism? Moreover, without the Resurrection, would Jesus have even been regarded as G-d, or “merely” as the Messiah?

 

[De_Maria]

Am I wrong to think the Old Testament Laws are only guidelines for Catholic’s?

The Ten Commandments are the foundation upon which Jesus built the New Covenant.

John 14:21 Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. And whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him.”

Those who keep the Commandments receive the gift of eternal life:

Matthew 19:17 He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Through participation in the Sacraments:

Titus 3:5 not because of any righteous deeds we had done
but because of his mercy,
he saved us through the bath of rebirth
and renewal by the holy Spirit,

Romans 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.

 

[EndTimes]

Shalom! …
Again… We should agree that we probably agree on many things but not everything
Agreed?

 

[meltzerboy2]

Yes, I agree.

 

[Justin_Mary]

In Brief…

No. Not according to Sacred Scriptures/NT/Gospel…

The Christian thing would be to start another thread & not continue this squibble here.

 

[EndTimes]

“”"Are you saying that Jesus did not have to suffer and die to redeem mankind for its sins? If the Jews had accepted the divinity of Jesus (since you believe they were instrumental in His Passion), He would not have been crucified and resurrected, so, in that case, what would have been the essential purpose of Christianity as distinct from Judaism? Moreover, without the Resurrection, would Jesus have even been regarded as G-d, or “merely” as the Messiah?""

From the Christian POV, The Son of God had to be the Atonement Sacrifice…

Not just a few Jews accepted Jesus as Messiah… Some Jews fully rejected Him.

“Without the Resurrection”, and also, “Merely the Messiah” - remains speculative “What Ifs?” Not really Applicable. …

The Father and His Son/ The Messiah - have a relationship very akin to Like Father, Like Son - yet even much more so.

That said, They are two distinct Persons who share the same Spirit… That said, and perhaps as a surprise to many, in my NT . virtually always, when “God” is mentioned… it is God the Father and not Jesus who is being referred to. There are Many Examples throughout the NT. For Example from EyeWitness John

, THIS IS THE REVELATION given by God to Jesus Christ. It was given to him so that he might show his servants what must shortly happen. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who, in telling all that he saw, has borne witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ.

… Happy is the man who reads, and happy those who listen to the words of this prophecy and heed what is written in it. For the hour of fulfilment is near.

==

Speaking of 'hour of fulfillment is near, Both some Christians and non-Christian Jews are getting more Vocal wrt a heightened sense/belief that the End of Days // EndTimes - are beginning to draw close…

That said, their respective theologies vary in some important manners

 

[De_Maria]

Are you saying that Jesus did not have to suffer and die to redeem mankind for its sins?

Yes.

If the Jews had accepted the divinity of Jesus

Correct. Remember that point. It is very important.

since you believe they were instrumental in His Passion), He would not have been crucified and resurrected,

Correct.

so, in that case, what would have been the essential purpose of Christianity as distinct from Judaism?

Are you assuming that if Jesus had been recognized as God, that is what it means to recognize His Divinity, are you assuming that if He had been recognized as God by the Jews, that the Trinity would no longer be true?

The truth is true whether the Jews believe it or not. The attitude of the Jews does not determine the Trinity.

Moreover, without the Resurrection, would Jesus have even been regarded as G-d, or “merely” as the Messiah?

If the Jews had recognized Jesus’ Divinity without the Resurrection, why would His death and resurrection then be any longer necessary in order to prove that He is God?

 

[St.Bede]

“This is a Catholic forum not a Christian forum”.

The statement above reminds me of the meme below:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)