Do Catholics believe in Freedom of Religion?

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I really don’t think it is appropriate for Catholics to berate Muslims for the actions of a few of their more militant members…considering the history of the Catholic church when it comes to trying to forcibly impose their faith onto others.

I know you will say the official church usually did not do this, but Catholic monarchs did.

Is this not similar to the current Muslim situation, in which not ALL Muslims are doing the crimes, but SOME of them are?
 
Shalom

I just read the links in your signature and found them very interesting and useful! Thanks for posting them. 👍
 
This is from your post. I want to answer, because it’s simple. Such people are obviously NOT God-fearing “religionists.” They are acting contradictory to Islam.

That is the answer.

If I were to redirect a similar question to you, I would say how could God-fearing priests sexually abuse innocent little children? How could they even think of such things?

How about if I answered by saying it’s because that is Catholicism?

Frankly it doesn’t make sense, and neither does the original argument.
Do you have to resort to more tu quoques? Why do you never give a straight answer? Where is the justice you speak of? Even the book that you call the Word of God can qualify as hate propaganda.

These are the elements that define hate speech:
  • Drawing a distinction between one’s own identity group and those outside it
  • Moral comparison based on this distinction
  • Devaluation or dehumanization of other groups and the insistence of personal superiority
  • The advocating of different standards of treatment based on identity group membership
  • A call to violence against members of other groups
    The Qur’an Distinguishes Muslims from Non-Muslims
and Establishes a Hierarchy of Relative Worth

The Qur’an Distinguishes Muslims from Non-Muslims
and Establishes a Hierarchy of Relative Worth
The Qur’an Dehumanizes Non-Muslims
and Says that They are Vile Animals
The Qur’an Says that Allah does NOT love unbelievers
The Qur’an Says that Non-Muslims are
Destined for Eternal Torture in Hell
Allah Himself Prevents Non-Muslims from Understanding
Allah Actually Causes Non-Muslims to Sin
The Qur’an Says that Non-Muslims should Not be Taken as Friends
The Qur’an Says that Other Religions are Cursed by Allah
The Qur’an Says that People of Other Religions
are to be Punished in This World

Cont.

Vickie
 
cont.

Conclusion

The pattern of violence and aggressive disregard for human suffering that is persistent in Muslim history and contemporary attitude toward non-believers reflects the message of the Qur’an, which is one of personal superiority and arrogance.
In our modern world, Muslim dominance is characterized by the oppression and discrimination of non-Muslims, while Muslim minorities within larger societies are distinguished by varying degrees of petulant demand, discord and armed rebellion. Few Muslims are uncomfortable with this blatant double standard, in which Islam either plays the victim or unapologetically victimizes others, depending on its position - and the reason is obvious.
Islam is a supremacist ideology in which the role of non-believers is subordinate to the position of Muslims. Those who resist Islamic rule are to be fought until they are fully humiliated and forced to acknowledge their inferior status either by converting to Islam or by paying a poll-tax and otherwise accepting the subjugation of their own beliefs.
There is simply no other religion on earth that draws such sharp distinction between its own members and others, or spends as much time condemning and dehumanizing those who merely choose not to follow its dogma.
So much about Islamic terrorism and the general indifference of the broader Muslim community toward the violence makes sense only against this dual nature of Islam. Yes, the apologists are correct in saying that Islam teaches love and kindness, but they fail to add that this applies only within the Muslim community. Loyalty to one’s own identity group is valued above all else and empathy for those outside the faith is optional at best and even discouraged.
The Qur’an meets every criterion by which we define hate speech. Not only does the message inspire loathing and disregard for others, but the Qur’an mandates the superiority of Islam, even if the means of establishment are by force.
If this is a “misunderstanding” of Islam by modern-day “radicals,” then it is an error that the founder of Islam made as well. In his later years, Muhammad directed military campaigns to subjugate other tribes and religions, “inviting” them to Islam at the point of a sword and forcing them to pay tribute nonetheless. He set in motion the aggressive military campaigns that made war against all five major world religions in just the first few decades following his death.
Islam incorporates the ultimate devaluation of non-Muslims by teaching that while a Muslim may be punished with death for murdering a fellow Muslim (Bukhari 83:17), no Muslim can be put to death for killing a non-Muslim (Bukhari 83:50). The Qur’an’s “Law of Equality,” which assigns human value and rights based on gender, religion and status, is the polar opposite of equality in the Western liberal tradition, which ideally respects no such distinction.
One can always find apologists willing to dismiss the harsh rhetoric of the Qur’an with creative interpretation, torturous explanation or outright denial, but their words and deeds almost always belie a concern for Islam’s image that does not extend to Islam’s victims - at least not with the same sense of urgency - thus proving the point.
Of course, there are also exceptional Muslims who do not agree with Islamic supremacy and sincerely champion secularism and respect for all people. Some even find verses or fragments of such to support their independent beliefs. But, for these people, the Qur’an as a whole will always be a constant challenge, since it explicitly teaches the distinct and inferior status of non-Muslims.

See here.

Vickie
 
Hi Vickie,

I’m sorry that you and others feel this way. For what it’s worth, I agree with you that comparisons to misbehaving Catholics are probably not a good way to make a point, valid or not. There are evil people in all religions.

In any event, I have a copy of Al-Qur’an right here. When read in context, I can’t find anything offensive in it. It seems to be a very articulate moral code, and an interesting historical journal written from the perspective of early Muslims.

Certainly we can take things out of context, and paint little snippets of even the most benign book as scary or threatening. This is neither wise nor useful.

It has also been interesting for me to experience talking to Muslims, as an Atheist who is very open about the fact that I believe Islam to be another flavor of the opium of the people. They seem, at least in my experience, to be far more tolerant of this than Catholics.

In any event, Muslims do not believe that non-Muslims are cursed, subhuman or doomed to Hell. I have yet to be analogized to an animal by Muslims. All of these things have happened here to me, by Catholics. No Muslim has ever said anything of the sort. Only Catholics have behaved this way.

How do you explain this?
 
Hi Vickie,

I’m sorry that you and others feel this way. For what it’s worth, I agree with you that comparisons to misbehaving Catholics are probably not a good way to make a point, valid or not. There are evil people in all religions.

In any event, I have a copy of Al-Qur’an right here. When read in context, I can’t find anything offensive in it. It seems to be a very articulate moral code, and an interesting historical journal written from the perspective of early Muslims.

Certainly we can take things out of context, and paint little snippets of even the most benign book as scary or threatening. This is neither wise nor useful.

It has also been interesting for me to experience talking to Muslims, as an Atheist who is very open about the fact that I believe Islam to be another flavor of the opium of the people. They seem, at least in my experience, to be far more tolerant of this than Catholics.

In any event, Muslims do not believe that non-Muslims are cursed, subhuman or doomed to Hell. I have yet to be analogized to an animal by Muslims. All of these things have happened here to me, by Catholics. No Muslim has ever said anything of the sort. Only Catholics have behaved this way.

How do you explain this?
By someCatholics, I take it?
 
Or by some people who claimed to be Catholics
That’s a good point. Just so I’m clear, I don’t consider most of the Catholics on this forum to be representative of the Catholic faith. The Catholics I know personally, in my neighborhood, would never treat Muslims the way they are treated on this forum, under any circumstances whatever. That goes for Jews and Mormons too, but Muslims seem to be at the very bottom of the hierarchy here.

It’s fortunate that this forum is not my only experience with Catholics and how they behave. I’d hate to think some curious soul would read this forum and base his opinion on Catholics solely upon the dismal antics that are prevalent on this forum.
 
It’s fortunate that this forum is not my only experience with Catholics and how they behave. I’d hate to think some curious soul would read this forum and base his opinion on Catholics solely upon the dismal antics that are prevalent on this forum.
Well, being a Catholic myself, I’d hate that, too!
Had 9/11/2001 not happened, I’d hope a few things might have been different…
 
Hi Vickie,

I’m sorry that you and others feel this way. For what it’s worth, I agree with you that comparisons to misbehaving Catholics are probably not a good way to make a point, valid or not. There are evil people in all religions.

In any event, I have a copy of Al-Qur’an right here. When read in context, I can’t find anything offensive in it. It seems to be a very articulate moral code, and an interesting historical journal written from the perspective of early Muslims.

Certainly we can take things out of context, and paint little snippets of even the most benign book as scary or threatening. This is neither wise nor useful.

It has also been interesting for me to experience talking to Muslims, as an Atheist who is very open about the fact that I believe Islam to be another flavor of the opium of the people. They seem, at least in my experience, to be far more tolerant of this than Catholics.

In any event, Muslims do not believe that non-Muslims are cursed, subhuman or doomed to Hell. I have yet to be analogized to an animal by Muslims. All of these things have happened here to me, by Catholics. No Muslim has ever said anything of the sort. Only Catholics have behaved this way.

How do you explain this?
How can I explain anything when you fail to see anything offensive in the Quran? You obviously consider Islam to be benign, I do not. You don’t consider it and its teachings a threat, I do.

In that case, there is nothing more to say!

Vickie
 
How can I explain anything when you fail to see anything offensive in the Quran? You obviously consider Islam to be benign, I do not. You don’t consider it and its teachings a threat, I do.

In that case, there is nothing more to say!

Vickie
Vickie, I don’t want you to take my word for it.

Why don’t you read it for yourself? There are good English translations available online. You don’t have to take it literally. I don’t take it literally, and I don’t agree with everything in it either.

It’s not frightening. It’s just literature. I think it’s worth reading at least once.

In any event, you seem frightened and I’m sorry about that. I mean that sincerely. I don’t think the Muslims are going to be able to take over North America very soon, so I don’t think you should worry too much about them. Concentrate on the joy your own faith brings you, and leave the Muslims to themselves.
 
This whole thread has veered way off topic.

It is now closed.

God bless-

Rachel
 
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