Do Catholics believe in imputed righteousness?

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As always, Carlan, you are far too kind. I enjoy my class and teaching indeed. Today was our sixth grade promotion ceremony. I had to give a big speech in front of roughly 400 people. No pressure! 😃
Carlan said:
Thank you Gurney for this most common sense Catholic explanation of infused righteousness.The kids must love you! :D:thumbsup:
Peace, Carlan
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gurneyhalleck1 said:
Already saved? No. Being saved? Yes. Final salvation? Only God knows, literally. Hopefully with sanctifying grace, the sacraments, and walking with Christ, yes, one will be saved. It is a mystery who is and who isn’t, from the Catholic standpoint. Once saved always saved is not Catholic thinking at all.
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When the Apostle Paul says, “by grace you have been saved” (past tense). What is the Catholic understanding of this?

Ephesians 2:5

Ephesians 2:8
 
Honestly if you’d like a really good explanation of this from a Catholic point of view I’d read “The Salvation Controversy” by James Akin. I have it. I’ll look it up for you when I get home from work. It talks about that very question. Paul uses the past tense in several situations and so do other Biblical scribes and it often means a future event. I’ll look into it for you when I get home. I recommend the book if you’re trying to understand Catholic theology on this topic. I’m not an Akin fan but he does a decent job on that issue.
lampalm said:
When the Apostle Paul says, “by grace you have been saved” (past tense). What is the Catholic understanding of this?

Ephesians 2:5

Ephesians 2:8
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1 Peter 1:8-9 says “Without having seen him you love him; though you do not now see him and rejoice with unutterable and exalted joy. As the outcome of your faith you obtain the salvation of your souls.” The word for “obtain” in Greek is a present progressive verb meaning it is still happening, a continuance.

Philippians 2:12 says “Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling” This indicates an ongoing journey, a process

1 Corinthians 3:15 says “If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames” again in the future tense

1 Corinthians 5:5 says “hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh,[a]** so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord” which shows a future tense situation as well

The Catholic Church looks at justification as a process. When one first enters into justification, Catholic theologians, many at least, call that initial justification, when the relationship and grace-filled life begins. But it culminates at death with final justification when sanctification through a holy life, use of the sacraments, and faith come together.

Does this help?
lampalm said:
When the Apostle Paul says, “by grace you have been saved” (past tense). What is the Catholic understanding of this?

Ephesians 2:5

Ephesians 2:8
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lampalm said:
When the Apostle Paul says, “by grace you have been saved” (past tense). What is the Catholic understanding of this?

Ephesians 2:5

Ephesians 2:8
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Lampalm,as Catholics we believe by grace we have been saved in faith working through love.
In Baptism we have been newly created in Christ and with God’s supernatural gift of this new life we are given the power to become holy as Christ is holy.(Ephesians 2:10) It is a life long process and if we persevere in this state, sanctifying grace, our hope in the end is salvation.
Peace, Carlan
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lampalm said:
Not to take this too far off topic.

Do Catholics believe that a person can be, “righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord” without Jesus death on the cross?
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No, not without Jesus’ atoning death on the cross.

However, those who were “righteous in the sight of God” (to wit: The Blessed Mother, the Good Thief, Moses, Elijah et al) were saved by a pre-emptive grace by Jesus’ atoning death on the cross.
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
Does this help?
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Being present and future makes sense.
I’m still surprised that you don’t believe in past, and unless I misunderstood the poster after you it sounds like Catholics might believe in past salvation. :confused:
 
PRmerger said:
No, not without Jesus’ atoning death on the cross.

However, those who were “righteous in the sight of God” (to wit: The Blessed Mother, the Good Thief, Moses, Elijah et al) were saved by a pre-emptive grace by Jesus’ atoning death on the cross.
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When a believer comes to Christ they enter into INITIAL justificatoin, that is, the spark. Think of it like a huge flame that starts to kindle a greater fire. With a continual partaking in the divine life of the Church with the sacraments, the Word, adoration, sacramentals like the rosary and the stations of the cross, holy water, and prayer as well as the deep mysteries of the Eucharist and the Mass, a person grows in their journey. Baptism and faith are initially what get the fire burning.

But Paul tells us that we are running a marathon, a race. We are on a course and we have to fight the good fight, run the race and can’t stop. When we fall along the circuit, we go to Confession and get our flame re-lit. That’s how I think of it.
lampalm said:
Being present and future makes sense.
I’m still surprised that you don’t believe in past, and unless I misunderstood the poster after you it sounds like Catholics might believe in past salvation. :confused:
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lampalm said:
Being present and future makes sense.
I’m still surprised that you don’t believe in past, and unless I misunderstood the poster after you it sounds like Catholics might believe in past salvation. :confused:
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Lampalm, Catholics believe Christ redeemed all men for their sins by His death on the cross, and if, as individuals, we accept that we are saved.
However, as Catholics we do not believe, as some Protestants do,that it is a once saved always saved happening.
It is as Gurney said, and all Catholics believe, our growth toward salvation is a life long process of growing in holiness with the help of sanctifying grace through God’s gifts of the Seven Sacraments. (We have been saved, we are being saved, and we hope to be saved.👍)
Hope that helps, Peace , Carlan
 
lampalm said:
Being present and future makes sense.
I’m still surprised that you don’t believe in past, and unless I misunderstood the poster after you it sounds like Catholics might believe in past salvation. :confused:
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Perhaps this article will help

a quote from that article:
“Are you saved?” asks the Fundamentalist. The Catholic should reply: “As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).”
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lampalm said:
I agree with this quote. So I assume it would be the same situation?
Like Noah, Abraham, Moses and Job. Right?
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My post was a response to the query of whether it ws possible to follow the commandments of God. These persons, as well all those listed in Heb. 11, did indeed follow the commandments of God.

It is a heresy of the Reformation that this is not possible.
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
Catholics and Orthodox Christians do not believe one can be made righteous without the Cross. The Cross is salvation itself. And sanctifying grace begins at baptism, is increased through the sacramental life with confession, the Eucharist, marriage, confirmation, prayer, the sacramentals, and an ever-increasing faith in the Lord. Catholics put more stress on works than Protestants do of course. The stress is really different. Protestants believe that human beings get baptized and salvation takes place at that moment as Christ’s righteousness is imputed to us. Then they begin to grow in grace and get sanctified. So really with the Protestant thinking salvation comes first, sanctification second. With Catholicism baptism is the beginning of the divine life. Sanctification must take place before salvation. Salvation isn’t assured or the beginning. It is the end game. Sanctification is a must for salvation whereas in Protestantism sanctification is the outcome or benefit but not the requirement.
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I agreed with most of your post, Gurney, except this part. On the contrary, the Catholic and Orthodox communions have always taught that baptism is completely efficacious for the cleansing of original and personal sin. This pure state of sanctification is what was sought in the early Church when many wanted to delay baptism until they were near death (like Constantine). Salvation of the newly baptized is always “assurred”, which is why the baptism of blood - those martyrd for their faith, and even the martyrdom of a catechumenate was understood to be salvific.

Baptism is most certainly “the beginning”. The Church has always treated it in the rite of christian initiation.
 
You know what I meant, Guano. Salvation isn’t assured just because one is baptized. I can be baptized then go and knock over a liquor store and blow up city hall and I’m not necessarily saved just on account of faith and baptism. You added the word “newly” to baptized. I never said newly-baptized, just baptized.
guanophore said:
I agreed with most of your post, Gurney, except this part. On the contrary, the Catholic and Orthodox communions have always taught that baptism is completely efficacious for the cleansing of original and personal sin. This pure state of sanctification is what was sought in the early Church when many wanted to delay baptism until they were near death (like Constantine). Salvation of the newly baptized is always “assurred”, which is why the baptism of blood - those martyrd for their faith, and even the martyrdom of a catechumenate was understood to be salvific.

Baptism is most certainly “the beginning”. The Church has always treated it in the rite of christian initiation.
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Carlan said:
Lampalm, Catholics believe Christ redeemed all men for their sins by His death on the cross, and if, as individuals, we accept that we are saved.
However, as Catholics we do not believe, as some Protestants do,that it is a once saved always saved happening.
It is as Gurney said, and all Catholics believe, our growth toward salvation is a life long process of growing in holiness with the help of sanctifying grace through God’s gifts of the Seven Sacraments. (We have been saved, we are being saved, and we hope to be saved.👍)
Hope that helps, Peace , Carlan
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I don’t believe in OSAS
 
FidesSpesCarita said:
“Are you saved?” asks the Fundamentalist. The Catholic should reply: “As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).”
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Sounds exactly like what I believe.
👍
 
If you don’t mind me asking, lampalm, to which denomination do you belong? Are you looking into Catholicism or are you just studying it out of interest? Have you also studied Orthodoxy? God bless.
lampalm said:
Sounds exactly like what I believe.
👍
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