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lampalm
Guest
This sounds like being born again. God loves us, we love God.
I guess if someone believed that once God declares them righteous they can now hate God and love sin, that I would object to.
What do Catholics believe imputed righteousness is?
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Carlan
Guest
Christian Baptism is performed by the pouring of water in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Peace, Carlan
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Carlan
Guest
Lampalm, Catholics believe Christians must be Baptised by the Trinity Formula, In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Peace, Carlan
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PRmerger
Guest
Catholics believe imputed righteousness is legal fiction on God’s part.
Rather, Catholics profess that God sees things as they truly are: we* are* righteous because God actually infuses Christ to us, in baptism and through faith (faith and baptism are usually mentioned together in the Scriptures).
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PRmerger
Guest
God is Truth, thus God cannot “declare” anything that is not so. Thus, if God “declares” us righteous, we are righteous.
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Carlan
Guest
In Baptism the Holy Spirit is infused into our soul. That is when Justification is conferred .Our sins are removed we are made righteous as Christ is righteous and we arefilled with sanctifying grace and we are on our way to living our life in Christ.
Peace, Carlan
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James224
Guest
No. We believe in infused righteousness. The best of the best books on Justification is Robert Sungenis’ book, “Not By Faith Alone”. It’s about 700 pages and covers just about everything. There is so much to cover - many verses and commentary. If you have a very specific question in this, I’ll try to answer.
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guanophore
Guest
No, the Apostles did not teach that the HS is “in” the water, but working through the water.
1 Peter 3:20-22
God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.
In baptism we are saved through the water, which washes the conscience clean of both original and personal sins.
Also, Jesus is not so much “in” the bread of the Eucharist as the bread becomes Jesus. He held up the Bread, saying “this IS my body”
The Apostles taught that we become members of Christ in baptism.
Of course, Jesus is able to join persons to HImself any way He chooses. The normative means is baptism.
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guanophore
Guest
As you have correctly pointed out, all the scriptures are consistent with one another. Those scriptures also tell us that humans are made in the image and likeness of God. That means we are free to choose.
Deut 30:19
19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life…
Once a person chooses life, their ability to choose does not vanish. They do not become less human after they are in Christ. They can still choose death if they wish.
Yes. This is what the Apostles taught.
This is what you have been taught to believe, but let’s look at the passage.
Rom 8:29-30
29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.
It is easy to see that you have changed the tense of the verbs here to fit it with Calvanistic thought. The Apostle is using the past tense throughout the verse. He is speaking of those saints who have gone on before him. Yes, God does glorify the saved, and yes, they will never perish, but we are not saved until the end of this life. While we are here on earth, we are working out our salvation with fear and trembling.
I think, even with your difficulties in reasoning, you will be able to see that this is in the past tense. However, maybe not.
Fortunately, I don’t have to be concerned about this, since my faith is not extracted from the pages of the Scripture.
My dear, misguided young lady. You appear to be getting defensive. I have quoted a scripture, and made comments on it. Instead of responding to the scripture, or my comments, this is all you have to say? May I recommend that you spend some time in this chapter, read it, and pray about it? Maybe if you do this, the HS will work in your heart, and you will be able to muster a more mature response?
Indeed, and He is the Light of the World. We know, however, that not everyone becomes enlightened by His Light. Some prefer to live in darkness.
Is your bible missing some pages?
Heb 6:3-4
those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit
Or are you really going to try to defend the position that the people being written about are not Christians?
Yes, indeed, believers are indwelt by the HS. To be a partaker is to have a share in HIm.
Eph 3:6
6 that is, how the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
A share or partnership in the promise.
Phil 1:7
for you are all partakers with me of grace…
You still think that believers are not referred to as partakers?
2 Peter 1:4
4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature.
The Apostle affirms that believers are able to have a share in the divine nature! What an inexpressible gift.
And neither do I have any need to do so, since it is part of the once for all divine deposit of faith handed down to us from the Apostles.
I am curious, though, what you have been taught about what it means. Since you seem to think the subjects are not Christian, what type of “heavenly gift” is referred to here?
Our salvation is not completed in this lifetime. It begins now, and if we persevere until the end, it will be completed.
Heb 6:11-12
11 And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness in realizing the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
Our full assurance of hope is realized at the end of this life. It is inherited through faith and patience.
Rev 3:4-6
5 He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. 6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’
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guanophore
Guest
No, WCH. None of the verses of Scripture “negate” any others. I guess it is difficult for you to grasp that both things are true.
I recommend that you read the letters of Jesus to the Churches in Revelation. It think this will help clarify that saved persons can fall away from the faith.
For us, there is no contradiction, WCH. Both things are true.
Yes, and those who persevere until the end will be saved. They will be united with their heavenly inheritance. There are many, though, who were justified, and then refused to be sanctified, and therefore will not be glorified. They will not be united with the imperishable inheritance kept in heaven for them.
Even if I was not aware of any sins, I would not by that fail to practice confession. Catholics do this daily at the Mass. There are secret sins of the heart that only God can reveal, that is why we do not presume to judge ourselves before God.
Phil 3:12-16
12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us who are mature be thus minded; and if in anything you are otherwise minded, God will reveal that also to you. 16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.
Even Paul, who Calvanists believe is the champion of OSAS, does not believe in OSAS.
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Carlan
Guest
Thanks for this Guan,
Peace, Carlan
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lampalm
Guest
What does working through the water mean?
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PRmerger
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Carlan
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WCH
Guest
You’re misusing one passage to defeat a passage you don’t like…
Jesus says His sheep WILL NEVER PERISH; therefore, you’re misunderstanding what Jesus says in Revelation.
You’re theology creates contradictions; your denial doesn’t change that.
Yep.
Anyone God justifies, God also glorifies (Rom 8:30).
Stop dodging my question. Are you free from sin, or not?
In Phil 3:20, Paul says this:
**For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; **Therefore, we’ve found another passage of scripture you don’t understand.
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WCH
Guest
In spite of all you’ve said, the definition of NO ONE is still NO ONE!
No, he’s not. Paul’s using the “past tense” because all of the events that occur in that passage of Scripture occurred in “eternity” (cf Eph 1:3ff).
They’re a done deal.
As has been pointed out to, that’s because those events occurred in eternity (cf Eph 1:3).
Then you have no way of knowing what the truth is, and you have no way of checking whether or not what you’re being told is true, is true.
As I said, my sweet and matronly old woman, you can’t prove any of that, or you would’ve at least tried…
Already answered.
Well then, that’s good, because you can’t.
There are many things in scripture that are gifts from God, and the writer doesn’t specify to which he is referring. Nevertheless, those to whom Christ gives eternal life…Jesus says so.
Salvation is complete in eternity, guanophore, and realized in time. It’s one of those “mysterious” things.
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guanophore
Guest
And the same as working through handkerchiefs, bones, and other inanimate objects of that kind.
2 Kings 13:21
21 And as a man was being buried, lo, a marauding band was seen and the man was cast into the grave of Eli’sha; and as soon as the man touched the bones of Eli’sha, he revived, and stood on his feet.
Acts 19:11-12
11 And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, 12 so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.
It is a mystery!
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guanophore
Guest
Indubitably.
John 10:25-30
The works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness to me; 26 but you do not believe, because you do not belong to my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; 28 and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one."
No one can “snatch” His sheep from Him. However, He created His sheep with free will, and He allows them to walk away from Him.
John 6:66-68
66 After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him. 67 Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also wish to go away?”
Becoming HIs disciple does not make our free will disappear. Disciples are still free to go away from Him.
Well, here is the problem. An "event’, by definition, occurs within the space time continuum.
event: the fundamental entity of observed physical reality represented by a point designated by three coordinates of place and one of time** in the space-time continuum **postulated by the theory of relativity
If this were true, WCH, then how did the Christians who lived before 382 AD when the canon was closed know what was truth?
How did they know for the first 20 years of the Church, before any of the NT was written?
You see, Catholics recognize that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, so we can know the Truth, even if we don’t have a Bible, because He is not confined to the pages of it.
We also believe His promises, that He would never leave or orphan His Church, and that He would lead her into “all Truth”. He entrusted His Truth to His chosen:
Mark 4:11-13
11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables;.”
Mark 4:33-34
33 With many such parables he spoke the word to them, as they were able to hear it; 34 he did not speak to them without a parable, but privately to his own disciples he explained everything.
2 Tim 2:1-2
You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, 2 and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also
The Apostles, to whom Jesus explained everything, committed the faith to their successors, the Bishops. These, in turn, chose faithful men, who were able to teach others also. This is called the Apostolic Succession. It is through this succession that the One Faith has been handed down (paradosis). In this way, the infallible Word of God is preserved in the Church, as well as in the Scriptures.
Besides, the fact that our faith comes from Jesus, and not extracted from the pages of the books does not mean that the books are not also valuable, and useful as a standard by which to judge the Truth. Using them as you do, though, in isolation from the One Faith that produced them, leads to many errors.
You are making a couple erroneous assumptions here, WCH. The first is that these matters are subject to “proof”, which they are not. They belong to the “once for all” divine deposit of faith given by Jesus to His One Body, the Church. Since they are divine revelation, they are far above the puny scientific methods of “proof” devised by humans to better understand their also limited universe.
Second, your assumption is mistaken that I “would have tried”. Despite the fact that divine revelation is above the realm of science, there do exist many “proofs” that are worthy of discussion. But your posts have made it clear that you are not interested in having an intelligent discussion. You have “proved” this by putting people on “ignore” who have attempted in good faith to have one with you.
You have also demonstrated that you are unwilling and unable to grasp certain concepts that are essential to understand Christian mysteries, for example, the soul being transformed in justification.
You have stated that the Catholic Church has no authority, and that your theology is comfortable and sufficient for you. In fact, it is unclear why you are here at CAF at all.
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guanophore
Guest
It would be a gross error to assume that because a person does not do a thing, it means they cannot.
This is a rather clumsy dodge, WCH. You claimed that believers were never referred to as “partakers” of the Holy Spirit. I gave you several examples in Scripture where they are. I asked you what you were taught about the meaning of the phrase “partakers of the heavenly gift”.
Obviously, you believe the “partakers of the heavenly gift” referenced in this passage are not Christian. I am wondering what you think they were. What gifts might one partake of that are heavenly who is unregenerate? Are you unaware that Calvin taught the unregenerate were unable to receive the gifts of God?
Indeed mysterious. However, those who are justified, yet walk away from the River of Life, failing to follow it to the end, are never united with the heavenly inheritance that is being kept imperishable for them.
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