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4James2Belushi0
Guest
I’m chuck bass.
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john_aurelius
Guest
I’ve always like Romans 8, wonderful expression of God’s love for His elect but it all has to be read in context.
verses 23-25 preceed the list of predestined, justified, glorified… (yes it is in the aorist tense)
…waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. For in hope we were saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one also hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.
verses 23-25 preceed the list of predestined, justified, glorified… (yes it is in the aorist tense)
…waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. For in hope we were saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one also hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.
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PJM
Guest
=WCH;7936313]The point I’m making is, regardless of how justification is “delivered,” be it “infused,” or “imputed,” both Catholics and Protestants continue to sin.
YEP! That is VERY CORRECTIsn’t that correct?
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PJM
Guest
ACTUALLY FRIEND:
You’re leaving out the most signifiant word: "IF: If you do as I teach [completely].
“MY SHEEP KNOW ME”
Which IS SAYING: Know, Love, Serve, OBEY Me. Salvation is always conditional on the human responce.
God Bless,
Pat
WCH,
In Mark 10, we read about the rich man.
The rich man clearly has faith, and in fact Jesus loved him. But he cannot bring himself to respond to faith. My view of this is, this rich man was one of the sheep, but rejected Jesus as shepherd. As guano said, this sheep “wandered off”.
How do you respond to this, considering your view, which appears to be “irrisistable grace”?
Jon
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WCH
Guest
Help me out Jon. First, why do you think He’s one of Jesus’ sheep?
Second, if He’s one of Jesus’ Sheep, he will believe; therefore, Jesus either has given him eternal life, or will give him eternal life at some future point in time; isn’t that correct (cf Jn 10:26-29)?
When he falls at Jesus’ feet, and calls him “Good Teacher”, Jesus replies, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone."
There seems here a recognition on the part of the rich man who Jesus was, and Jesus calls him out on it. This man has faith.
He does believe, when he calls Jesus “Good Teacher”, but the price of obedience is too great for him. Now, he does have every opportunity to return to repentence, but I’m not aware of any point where scripture says this actually happened. He came to faith via grace, but he still has intact his free will, to walk away from saving faith.
Jon
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guanophore
Guest
You have rightly pointed out that all of the verses in Scripture must harmonize with one another. We cannot extract a doctrine from a single verse in such a way that contradicts what other verses have to say.
John 15:1-7
15:1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6*** If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. ***
Irresistable grace is a false doctrine, WCH, invented during the Reformation by a lawyer who decided to rejec tthe apostolic faith.
Do you think it is possible to be a disciple of Christ, yet not one of His sheep? Can one be connected to Him as the Vine, yet not belong to Him?
What does it mean to be a parktaker of the Heavenly gift?
Calvanists have to really twist and turn the Scirptures to come oup with answers to these questions, and in my time here, I can tell you, I have heard a lot of amazing efforts.
Perhaps you will entertain us with yours?
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Matorin
Guest
Sheesh, everyone’s remarks are so condescending and snarky…
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Matorin
Guest
Jon excluded
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guanophore
Guest
It would help if you could attach this feedback to a particular message, or send a PM containing the remark you found offensive. I do not wish to come across this way, but the feedback does not help me when it is generalized this way.
In addition, some people find the naked Truth condescending and “snarky”, and changing the way I express things will not help in that case.
For example, many of my separated brethren here find it condescending for Catholics to say we have the “fullness of faith”. I don’t think there is anything I can do about that.
Thanks, but gee, Windfish, prmerger, po18guy, PJM, and lots of others. Guano is one of the best here. WCH has been a pretty good sport.
You should see the really snarky threads.
Jon
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Monica4316
Guest
no we believe in infused righteousness - that God actually makes us righteous, not that we just appear to be so. That is because if we are truly in union with God, we share in His divine life and become righteous - in actuality, through grace. And we don’t sin any more.
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WesleyF
Guest
WCH,
Scripture does not contradict itself. It is God’s word. Scripture must always be read as a whole and not in isolation. Let me illustrate by giving an example:
When Satan attempted to make Jesus fall into sin, he quoted scripture! He said, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down; for it is written,
This was a direct quote from Psalm 91:11-12.
What is interesting to note is the way Jesus responds. Jesus did not say, “You’re quoting Psalm 91 out of context!” Satan did quote Psalm 91 correctly and in context! There was nothing in the context of Psalm 91 which indicated that Jesus shouldn’t throw himself down.
However, in replying to Satan, Jesus taught us a very important principle - the principle of the unity of scripture. He taught us that scripture must be read as a whole and not in isolation. Jesus quoted another completely different verse, “Do not put the Lord your God to the test.” (Matthew 4:7). This was a quote from Deut 6:16.
A lot of times, to make sense of a passage of scripture, we have to read it in the light of other passages. For example, Jesus said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask anything of the Father, he will give it to you in my name.” (John 16:23) But John adds a corrective lens to that verse by saying “And this is the confidence which we have in him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us.” (1 John 5:14)
You quote John 10:26-29 in isolation and do not read it in the light of John 15:1-7. That, I am afraid, is the devil’s way of interpreting scripture! Jesus’ way is to read them together and not in isolation. We follow the way of Jesus, how about you?
Here is how I read them together.
“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.” (John 10:27-28)
What is eternal life?** Eternal life is Jesus himself**. This was explained by John -
“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life; the life was made manifest, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life which was with the Father and was made manifest to us.” (1 John 1:1-2)
Not perishing is the direct consequence of having Jesus abiding in you, i.e. eternal life abiding in you. As long as eternal life (Jesus himself) is abiding in you, you shall never perish. But scripture indicates that your actions can cause the Father to cut you off from Jesus. This is explained in John 15:1-6
“I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser.** Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away**, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.”
If you note carefully, the branches were cut off. The branches are those that initially did abide in the vine, but they bore no fruit and so they were cut off. In the same way, if we do not bear fruit, the Father will cut us off from Christ and then we shall perish.
So there is no contradiction between John 15:1-6 and John 10:27-28 and I have shown you how a Catholic can read them in harmony. Now I would like to know how you read the two in harmony and not in isolation, as the devil likes to do.
Scripture does not contradict itself. It is God’s word. Scripture must always be read as a whole and not in isolation. Let me illustrate by giving an example:
When Satan attempted to make Jesus fall into sin, he quoted scripture! He said, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down; for it is written,
He will give his angels charge of you,' and On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.’” (Matthew 4:6)This was a direct quote from Psalm 91:11-12.
What is interesting to note is the way Jesus responds. Jesus did not say, “You’re quoting Psalm 91 out of context!” Satan did quote Psalm 91 correctly and in context! There was nothing in the context of Psalm 91 which indicated that Jesus shouldn’t throw himself down.
However, in replying to Satan, Jesus taught us a very important principle - the principle of the unity of scripture. He taught us that scripture must be read as a whole and not in isolation. Jesus quoted another completely different verse, “Do not put the Lord your God to the test.” (Matthew 4:7). This was a quote from Deut 6:16.
A lot of times, to make sense of a passage of scripture, we have to read it in the light of other passages. For example, Jesus said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask anything of the Father, he will give it to you in my name.” (John 16:23) But John adds a corrective lens to that verse by saying “And this is the confidence which we have in him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us.” (1 John 5:14)
You quote John 10:26-29 in isolation and do not read it in the light of John 15:1-7. That, I am afraid, is the devil’s way of interpreting scripture!
Jesus’ way is to read them together and not in isolation. We follow the way of Jesus, how about you?Here is how I read them together.
“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.” (John 10:27-28)
What is eternal life?** Eternal life is Jesus himself**. This was explained by John -
“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life; the life was made manifest, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life which was with the Father and was made manifest to us.” (1 John 1:1-2)
Not perishing is the direct consequence of having Jesus abiding in you, i.e. eternal life abiding in you. As long as eternal life (Jesus himself) is abiding in you, you shall never perish. But scripture indicates that your actions can cause the Father to cut you off from Jesus. This is explained in John 15:1-6
“I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser.** Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away**, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.”
If you note carefully, the branches were cut off. The branches are those that initially did abide in the vine, but they bore no fruit and so they were cut off. In the same way, if we do not bear fruit, the Father will cut us off from Christ and then we shall perish.
So there is no contradiction between John 15:1-6 and John 10:27-28 and I have shown you how a Catholic can read them in harmony. Now I would like to know how you read the two in harmony and not in isolation, as the devil likes to do.
G
guanophore
Guest
You talkin’ bout my dishin’ out o’ the snarky? :ehh:
Oh, I think she is having GREAT sport with all of us misled Catholics.
It is becoming increasingly clear that she has very little understanding of Catholic faith.
Not the best at dishin out the snarky, guano.
One of the best at charitable dialogue!!!
Oh, I think she is having GREAT sport with all of us misled Catholics.
I didn’t say she understood Catholicism. And the Catholics here have been pretty charitable on this thread, I think.
Jon
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WCH
Guest
Faith in what Jon?
What does he believe, Jon, and ***in what ***does he believe?
In a scant moment he asked Jesus a question, heard Jesus’ answer, and walked away, grieving.
And Jesus stated at that point: *And Jesus, looking around, said to His disciples, “How hard it will be for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God!” The disciples were amazed at His words. But Jesus answered again and said to them, “**Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” ***
Why is it so hard for the wealthy to enter the kingdom, I wonder?
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