Do Catholics believe our reason is fallen?

[LatinRight]

Hi, LatinRight!

Excellent post!

I love the way you presented both measure and countermeasure… it is by employing all of God’s Revelation (both the Oral and Written Word) that we can make the correct exegesis.

Yes, the Fall made man useless/corrupt; yet, God’s Grace is Above and Beyond man’s limitations and unrighteousness; it is through God’s Free Gift of Grace that man can be extracted/rescued from his corrupt state. But, as the Church has correctly Taught throughout the ages, man’s freewill must respond to God’s Call to Life.

We don’t see a Command, in Scriptures, to Abel; but we know from his response to God that the Holy Spirit Compelled him to seek and honor Yahweh God.

…notice St. John’s 1:5:

The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

…the corruption that engulfed man cannot overpower God’s Grace!

(Thank you for your Blessings; may the Holy Spirit Bless you abundantly, as well!)

Maran atha!

Angel

**God bless Jcrichton and every readers of the CAF. **

There is an extremely important sentence in your post as follows:

But, as the Church has correctly Taught throughout the ages, man’s freewill must respond to God’s Call to Life.

Yes, man’s free will must respond to God’s Call to Life.

The knowledge of Predestination and salvation is start when we know, where is the exact point, in the sequence of events of our salvation, when we are in THE POSITION, when we are ABLE to freely and positively respond to God’s Call to life.

If a Christian doesn’t know the above exact point of his POSITION, when he is ABLE to freely and positively respond to God’s Call to life, he does not understand Predestination and Salvation.

THE DEPRAVITY OF A NATURAL/CARNAL MAN CAUSED BY THE FALL

Rom.8:6-8;
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

1 cor.2:14;
But the natural man does not receives the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

THE WAY TO SPIRITUAL LIFE THROUGH INITIAL JUSTIFICATION

Rom.5:18;
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

Rom.15:22;
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

Ez.36:25-27;
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; **I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. **

26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my Spirit in you and CAUSE YOU (our cooperation is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation) TO FOLLOW MY DECREES and be careful to keep my laws. – In the brackets added.

**WE SEE ABOVE THERE ARE TWO POSITIONS **

Every member of the entire human race is in Adam or in Christ, there is no in between position.

1. The natural/carnal/condemned POSITION IN ADAM – Before Initial Justification/Ez.36:25-27.
2. The spiritual/Initially Justified/being in the state of grace POSITION IN CHRIST – After Initial Justification/Ez.36:25-27.

**The bridge from Adam to Christ is Initial Justification, described in Ez.36:25-27; etc.
**

At our Initial Justification, God washed us clean, recreated is in Christ by heart transplant, taken us into the state of grace, we have received God’s gift of Everlasting Life and His grace The Gift of Final Perseverance which is an Eternal Protection of our Salvation/Everlasting Life. – This was an INSTANT EVENT by solely the works of God called monergism.

Our Initial Justification is our FIRST STAGE of our salvation. – It is God’s free gift for us.

From our Initial Justification until we die is the SECOND STAGE of our salvation, called Progressive Justification. – This stage is synergism, it is done by Faith + Works of love.

TO MAKE IT CLEAR!!!

We get God’s gift OF heaven by Grace alone, by Faith alone.

We get rewards IN heaven by Works of love.

To mix the two together is the Pollution of the Gospel in it’s heart!!!

As God’s children/elect, our salvation is irrevocable. – DE FIDE Dogma.

In the SECOND STAGE of our salvation: God gives us His gift of Formed Faith and we are able to positively respond to it, because we are ALREADY in Christ and we are ALREADY in the state of grace, as God’s elect, we are ALREADY have God’s IRREVACABLE gift of Salvation/Everlasting Life and now at the first time, we are able to co-operate with the grace of God.

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

**You said Jcrichton **
But, as the Church has correctly Taught throughout the ages, man’s freewill must respond to God’s Call to Life.

Your above statement is correct.

At the beginning of our second stage of salvation, which is our Progressive Justification, we are all freely respond to God’s Call to life.

STRICTLY SPEAKING as God’s elect, by at this time, we ALREADY have Spiritual Life, we ALREADY have God’s gift of IRREVOCABLE Salvation/Everlasting Life, we are ALREADY in Christ, we are ALREADY in the State of Grace as the benefit of our Initial Justification, which was SOLELY the works of God without our consent and without our cooperation. – DE FIDE Dogma. + Infallible teachings of the Trent.

**Some Christians wrongly believe: **
Our say yes PRECEDES our Initial Justification.

The truth is:
Our Initial Justification PRECEDES our say yes to it.

When God calls and draws an un-regenerated/carnal man/elect into His service/salvation WITHOUT stimulus, merit, or condition. and without regard to any future supernatural merits, His calling is backed up with an ABSOLUTE DECREE and in consequence of this DECREE, God gives them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment. – Furthermore this ABSOLUTE DECREE includes the INFALLIBLE entrance to heaven.

Our initial justification is an instant event, we don’t even realize it and in this work for three reasons we cannot co-operate with the grace of God.

First reason: In our fallen state, we are spiritually dead and we accept nothing from the Spirit of God. – This is our spiritual resurrection from spiritual death.

Second reason: Our initial justification and born again at our Initial Justification is an instant event.

Third reason: The above work of God takes us to the state of grace.
Until we are in the state of grace we cannot make supernatural decisions or do supernatural merit.

Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582).

John 15:5; “… for without Me you can do nothing.”

**COUNCIL OF TRENT Session 6 Chapter 8 **
. . . None of those things which precede justification - whether faith or works - merit the grace itself of justification.

CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”

In other words, when God commands, He capacitates the hearer to respond.

Our cooperation is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation.

Yet the ability to respond is also His gift.

God bless Jcrichton and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

 

[jcrichton]

**God bless Jcrichton and every readers of the CAF. **

There is an extremely important sentence in your post as follows:

But, as the Church has correctly Taught throughout the ages, man’s freewill must respond to God’s Call to Life.

Yes, man’s free will must respond to God’s Call to Life.

The knowledge of Predestination and salvation is start when we know, where is the exact point, in the sequence of events of our salvation, when we are in THE POSITION, when we are ABLE to freely and positively respond to God’s Call to life.

If a Christian doesn’t know the above exact point of his POSITION, when he is ABLE to freely and positively respond to God’s Call to life, he does not understand Predestination and Salvation.

THE DEPRAVITY OF A NATURAL/CARNAL MAN CAUSED BY THE FALL

Rom.8:6-8;
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

1 cor.2:14;
But the natural man does not receives the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

THE WAY TO SPIRITUAL LIFE THROUGH INITIAL JUSTIFICATION

Rom.5:18;
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

Rom.15:22;
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

Ez.36:25-27;
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; **I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. **

26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my Spirit in you and CAUSE YOU (our cooperation is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation) TO FOLLOW MY DECREES and be careful to keep my laws. – In the brackets added.

**WE SEE ABOVE THERE ARE TWO POSITIONS **

Every member of the entire human race is in Adam or in Christ, there is no in between position.

1. The natural/carnal/condemned POSITION IN ADAM – Before Initial Justification/Ez.36:25-27.
2. The spiritual/Initially Justified/being in the state of grace POSITION IN CHRIST – After Initial Justification/Ez.36:25-27.

**The bridge from Adam to Christ is Initial Justification, described in Ez.36:25-27; etc.
**

At our Initial Justification, God washed us clean, recreated is in Christ by heart transplant, taken us into the state of grace, we have received God’s gift of Everlasting Life and His grace The Gift of Final Perseverance which is an Eternal Protection of our Salvation/Everlasting Life. – This was an INSTANT EVENT by solely the works of God called monergism.

Our Initial Justification is our FIRST STAGE of our salvation. – It is God’s free gift for us.

From our Initial Justification until we die is the SECOND STAGE of our salvation, called Progressive Justification. – This stage is synergism, it is done by Faith + Works of love.

TO MAKE IT CLEAR!!!

We get God’s gift OF heaven by Grace alone, by Faith alone.

We get rewards IN heaven by Works of love.

To mix the two together is the Pollution of the Gospel in it’s heart!!!

As God’s children/elect, our salvation is irrevocable. – DE FIDE Dogma.

In the SECOND STAGE of our salvation: God gives us His gift of Formed Faith and we are able to positively respond to it, because we are ALREADY in Christ and we are ALREADY in the state of grace, as God’s elect, we are ALREADY have God’s IRREVACABLE gift of Salvation/Everlasting Life and now at the first time, we are able to co-operate with the grace of God.

Continue

Hi, LatinRight!

It seems that you are well versed… some of what you’ve stated lend to jumping into wrong conclusions; I wonder if you could expand on some of the definitions/meanings (on a separate thread, if the OP or the censors feel the theme is being high jacked):

• Predestination and Salvation–some Christians believe that God has predestine some people into Salvation; others that God has predestined some to Salvation and all others to damnation. Could you clarify this as much of it has to do with monergism, which places God at dispensing Salvation against man’s will and damnation against man’s potential desire to be in God.
• …which brings us to synergism–why is this the correct understanding of man’s relationship to Salvation? …what is missing from the rest of humanity that refrains from searching for God or from obeying God’s initial Grace (monergism)?

Thank you for your patience and assistance.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[LatinRight]

Hi, LatinRight!

It seems that you are well versed… some of what you’ve stated lend to jumping into wrong conclusions; I wonder if you could expand on some of the definitions/meanings (on a separate thread, if the OP or the censors feel the theme is being high jacked):

• Predestination and Salvation–some Christians believe that God has predestine some people into Salvation; others that God has predestined some to Salvation and all others to damnation. Could you clarify this as much of it has to do with monergism, which places God at dispensing Salvation against man’s will and damnation against man’s potential desire to be in God.
• …which brings us to synergism–why is this the correct understanding of man’s relationship to Salvation? …what is missing from the rest of humanity that refrains from searching for God or from obeying God’s initial Grace (monergism)?

Thank you for your patience and assistance.

Maran atha!

Angel

**God bless Jcrichton and every readers of the CAF.

A SHORT EXPLANATION OF MONERGISM AND SYNERGISM**

An example of monergism:
**Monergism is the position in Christian theology that God, through the Holy Spirit works to bring about the Initial Justification of a spiritually dead (Col.2:13) individual ** through spiritual resurrection and recreation, without the individual could resist it, and without the individual could give consent to it and without the individual could cooperate with it. – Ez.36:25-27; etc.

INITIAL JUSTIFICATION IS AN INSTANT EVENT
**No human can resist or cooperate with an instant event, **when the brain could act on it, Initial Justification is already over.

Our initial justification start when we are still spiritually dead (Col.2:13), it is **an **instant event and an IRREVOCABLE (Rom.11:29; etc.) THE GIFT OF GOD. **

WE CANNOT RESIST IT AND WE CANNOT GIVE CONSENT TO IT, we don’t even realise it, we only know the results of it at our Progressive Justification, **which is the second stage of our salvation, in this stage we are actively cooperating with the grace of God. **

God’s work of our initial justification for three reasons we CANNOT resist it and we CANNOT give consent to it and we CANNOT cooperate with the grace of God.

First reason: In our fallen state, we are spiritually dead and we accept nothing from the Spirit of God. – This is our spiritual resurrection from spiritual death.

Second reason: Our initial justification and born again at our Initial Justification is an instant event.

Third reason: The above work of God takes us to the state of grace.
Until we are in the state of grace we cannot make supernatural decisions or do supernatural merit.

Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582).

John 15:5; “… for without Me you can do nothing.”

**COUNCIL OF TRENT Session 6 Chapter 8 **
. . . None of those things which precede justification - whether faith or works - merit the grace itself of justification.

**FR. WILLIAM MOST TEACHES THE SAME ABOVE THEOLOGICAL FACTS
**
Tuesday, April 2, 2013 Fr. William Most
What does the Catholic Church teach on Predestination?

Predestination is gratuitous: For even before God considers human merits, He predestines, and because the sole and total cause of predestination is the goodness and love of the Father which moves spontaneously WITHOUT stimulus, merit, or condition.

MEANING man does NOTHING, to enter a state of justification. End quote.

As we see above our Initial Justification is solely the works of God called monergism, it is God’s irrevocable gift, paid by Christ on the cross.
As God’s children/elect, we can do NOTHING to get God’s grace the gift of Initial Justification, we can do NOTHING to resist it, it is Eternally Protected by God’s other grace The Gift of Final Perseverance. – DE FIDE Dogma. + Infallible teachings of the Trent.

This is an instant event, this is our first stage of our salvation, from this point on follows the second stage of our salvation until we die, called Progressive Justification.

SOME EXAMPLES OF THE BENEFITS OF OUR INITIAL JUSTIFICATION

At our Initial Justification God recreated us, made us 100 % righteous, declared us righteous and adopted us, as God’s children/elect.

One is saved the moment one is Initially Justified.

Our Progressive Justification is synergism, we actively cooperate with the grace of God, not because we have to, but because we want to.

Synergism. = God and man working together, by man cooperating with the grace of God.

Our Progressive Justification is (synergism) from the Instant Event of our Initial Justification until we die. – Our Works of Love done by our cooperation with actual grace.

Heaven is God’s free gift, paid by Christ on the Cross.

We will get reward in heaven for our Works of Love.

This is above of a very short and simple explanation of moergism and synergism through examples.

Continue**

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

**MY POSTS BASED ON THE FOLLOWING CATHOLIC TEACHINGS

The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a *DE FIDE *Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect.**

Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful

figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which

contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES.

(2) The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,

follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the

predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be

UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to

CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of

certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience.

**THE THEORY OF PREDESTINATION prævisa merita

THIS THEORY, CHAMPIONED BY all Thomists and a few Molinists (as Bellarmine, Francisco Suárez, Francis de Lugo):**

Asserts that God, by an absolute decree and without regard to any future supernatural merits, predestined from all eternity certain men to the glory of heaven, and then, in consequence of this decree, decided to give them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment. End quote.

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[LatinRight]

Continuation

THE SCRIPTURE IS IN HARMONY WITH THE THEORY OF PREDESTINATION prævisa merita

2 Tim.1:9; “God who saved us and called us with holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS, but ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE …”

Eph.1:11; “… being predestined ACCORDING TO THE PURPOSE of Him …”

Acts 13:48;
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.

The above teachings of the Church and the Scripture is in perfect harmony with each other.

You did not chose Me, but I chose you, it is the most clear teachings and no room for to misunderstand!!!

The election/ordination to the Bride of Christ is 100 % God’s choice and 0 % man’s choice.

I’m sure many Christians who doesn’t know God’s plan of salvation** rejects the above statement by saying:**

1. The above statement is incorrect.

2. Or if it is correct, then God is unjust.

**The truth is: **
God is just, even God decided whom He has elected to be members of the Bride of Christ, WITHOUT stimulus, merit, or condition. and WITHOUT regard to any future supernatural merits.

John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you. – It is clear, 100 % God’s choice and 0 % our choice.

1 Pet.2:9;
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

If only the Bride of Christ would be saved, then God would be the unjust.

The members of the Bride of Christ are God’s choice, but God saves not only the Bride of Christ, His will is that everyone saved.

God saves all nations and every members of it, God saves the whole human race, this is where God’s justice is.

CCC 677 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.
God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.

Dan.7:27;
27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High.
His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.

Is.2:4;
He will judge between the nations
and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.

God saves every member of the entire human race, but the election of the members of the Bride of Christ is God’s choice and it is very clear.

Christ cannot be more clearer: You did not chose Me, but I chose you.

Did you noticed also in Acts 13:48?
As many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

**WHY THEY DID NOT RESIST GAD’S CALL INTO THE BRIDE OF CHRIST? **

1. Because by at this time they all had earlier Initial Justification.
2. At this time they all were in the second stage of their salvation, called Progressive Justification.
3. At this time they all had God’s gift of Salvation/Everlasting life and God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance (received at initial Justification), which is an Eternal and Infallible Protection of their Salvation/Everlasting life.
4. At this time they all were in Christ and in the state of grace, so they all made supernatural decisions** not to resist the call of God.**
5. And also God drew them to Christ. – John 6:44

CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”

In other words, when God commands, He capacitates the hearer to respond.

Our cooperation is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation.

Yet the ability to respond is also His gift.

SUMMARY OF THE ABOVE TEACHINGS

When God calls and draws an Initially Justified/elect into His service/salvation WITHOUT stimulus, merit, or condition. and without regard to any future supernatural merits, His calling is backed up with an ABSOLUTE DECREE and in consequence of this DECREE, God gives them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment. – Furthermore this ABSOLUTE DECREE includes the INFALLIBLE entrance to heaven.

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[LatinRight]

Continuation

GOD’S GRACE THE GIFT OF FINAL PERSEVERANCE IS AN INFALLIBLE PROTECTION OF EVERY INITIALLY JUSTIFIED

THE GIFT OF FINAL PERSEVERANCE

Quote: **St. Thomas Aquinas, In his Summa Theologiae he wrote: **

[P]erseverance is called he abiding in good TO the end of life.

And in order to have this perseverance man . . . needs the divine assistance guiding him and guarding him against the attacks of the passions . . . that he may be kept from evil TILL the end of his life (ST IIa:109:10)

This same teaching was infallibly taught by the Council of Trent after the Protestant Reformation.

A Tiptoe Through TULIP by James Akin

Quote: Trent’s Decree of Justification, canon 16, speaks of “That Great and Special Gift of Final Perseverance,” and chapter 13 of the decree speaks of "the gift of perseverance of which it is written:

‘He who perseveres to the end shall be saved [Matt. 10:22, 24:13],’ Which cannot be obtained from anyone except from Him who is able to make him who stands to stand [Rom. 14:4]."

Aquinas said it always saves a person because of the kind of grace it is; The gift of final perseverance always works.

Catholics even have a special name for the GRACE God gives these people: “The Gift of Final Perseverance.”

The Church formally teaches that there is a Gift of Final Perseverance.

Aquinas (and even Molina) said this grace always ensures that a person will persevere.

Aquinas said, “Predestination [to final salvation] most certainly and infallibly takes effect.”

In order to have this perseverance man…needs the divine assistance guiding and guarding him against the attacks of the passions…” End quote

THREE THEOLOGICAL FACT ACCORDING TO THE ABOVE TEACHINGS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

1. WITHOUT God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance everyone would positively end up in hell. – INFALLIBLE teachings of the Trent.
2. WITH God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance every members of the Bride of Christ end up in heaven. – DE FIDE Dogma of the Catholic Church.
3. If even one elect would/could reject/resist God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance would end up in hell and God would lose His omniscience. – DE FIDE Dogma of the Catholic Church.

As we see above, if anyone say: An elect can reject/resist the grace of Initial Justification or the grace The Gift of Final Perseverance that means, an elect has the power to destroy God’s omniscience.

Of course NO ONE can reject/resist the above graces, so God’s omniscience is safe.

**If an elect would has the power to reject/resist the grace of Initial Justification or the grace The Gift of Final Perseverance ** God would lost His omniscience about 2000 years ago.

So, ONE WAY OR ANOTHER, God made sure no one rejects/resists the grace of Initial Justification or the grace The Gift of Final Perseverance.

CONCLUSION

1. It is God’s sole responsibility to give every member of the entire human race His free gift of Initial Justification.
2. Furthermore, it is God’s sole responsibility to give every member of the entire human race His free gift of His grace The Gift of Final Perseverance at their Initial Justification.
3. God’s gift of Initial Justification saves the/elect Initially Justified and His grace The Gift of Final Perseverance keeps saved every/elect Initially Justified and infallible makes sure every Initially Justified dies in the state of Grace. – DE FIDE Dogma. + Infallible teachings of the Trent.

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[LatinRight]

Continuation

** RIGHTEOUSNESS AND MERIT by James Akin**

Quote: Protestants who say, … Catholics believe we must do good works in order to become justified — a position which was explicitly condemned at Trent, which taught “nothing that precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification” (Decree on Justification 8).

Justification is the cause, not the consequence, of good works.

The Church teaches that we are made totally righteous — **we receive 100% pure righteousness — in justification. **

You don’t have to do a diddly-do-da thing after being justified by God in baptism in order to go to heaven.

There is no magic level of works one needs to achieve in order to go to heaven.

One is saved the moment one is initially justified.

Of course, a Calvinist can say (as a Thomistic Catholic would say) that both cooperations in the giving and the embracing of the eternal call are themselves produced (not just enabled) by God’s grace, and this is perfectly fine.

A Calvinist and a Catholic alike can say that our cooperation is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation. No problem at all. End quote.

THE SCRIPTURE CONFIRMS JAMES AKIN’S ABOVE TEACHINGS

Ez.36:25-27;
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; **I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. **

26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my Spirit in you and CAUSE YOU (our cooperation is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation) TO FOLLOW MY DECREES and be careful to keep my laws. – In the brackets added.

Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you BOTH TO WILL and TO ACT for His good pleasure.”

Similarly, the Council of Orange Canon 25 states, “In every good work, it is not we who begin … but He (God) first inspires us.” (#329.2)

Aquinas said, “God changes the will without forcing it.
But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.

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[LatinRight]

Continuation

THE EXAMPLE OF THE UNIVERSAL SALVATION OF NINEVEH

**1. GOD’S PROMISE TO NINEVEH: **

Jonah 3:4; Jonah began by going a day’s journey into the city, proclaiming, “Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown.”

1. GOD’S PROMISE TO THE HUMAN RACE:

Apart from a few people** I will throw everyone to hell.**

2. GOD HAS CHANGED HIS MIND and didn’t bring on the destruction on Nineveh.

Jonah 3:10; When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened.

Of course, God saved the more then hundred and twenty thousand persons in Nineveh as it is described below.

**2. GOD WILL CHANGE HIS MIND in the same way as in Nineveh and will don’t bring destruction/hell on the human race. **

Ez.36:25-28;
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; **I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. **

26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my Spirit in you and CAUSE YOU (our cooperation is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation) TO FOLLOW MY DECREES and be careful to keep my laws. – In the brackets added.

28 Then “you will live in the land,” I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God.

Did you notice in v. 28: (Addressed to the Nation of Israel) “you will live in the land,” not in heaven, the same principles applies to all the nations as well.

Of course some members of the Nation of Israel are members of the Bride of Christ.

CCC 677; “… which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.”

At Christ’s second coming, His Bride will come down from heaven with Christ, and they will rule over the nations.

The way God saved Nineveh, the same way He will save the human race.

It is His will that everyone saved, only He can do it, apart from Him (we are in Christ and He is acting in us) we can do nothing.

3. GOD’S CONCERN FOR NINEVEH:

Jonah 4:11; And should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left—and also many animals?

3. GOD’S CONCERN FOR THE HUMAN RACE:

John 12:32; And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

1 Cor.15:22; For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.

Eph.1:10; In the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.

Col.1:20;
And through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

The following early Fathers of the Church are said to have taught that all will finally be saved.

Pantaenus; Clement of Alexandria; Origen; Athanasius; Didymus the Blind; Macarius of Egypt; Gregory Thaumaturgus; Ambrose; Ephraim; John Chrysostum; Gregory of Nyssa; Gregory of Nazianzus; Jerome of Bethlehem; Evagrius Ponticus; Titus of Bastra; Asterius of Amasea; Cyril; Methodius of Tyre; Pamphilius Eusibius; Hillary of Poitiers; Victorinus; Macrina the Younger; Dionysius the Areopagite; John Cassian; Maximus the Confessor; Proclus of Constantinople; Peter Chrysologus; Diodorus of Tarsus; Stephen bar Sudaili.

The doctrine of universal salvation has become very popular in the modern Roman Catholic Church.

**There is also a very good book on Universal Salvation:

Jesus Christ Salvation of All by Luis F. Ladaria SJ (Author)

EDITORIAL REVIEWS**
“Luis F. Ladaria SJ presents a powerful statement openly advocating the doctrine of universal salvation.
His advocacy of universal salvation is openly and undeniably proclaimed.” – David Sielaff, Associates for Scriptural Knowledge, ASK " David Sielaff, Associates for Scriptural Knowledge, ASK"

Archbishop Ladaria has been secretary, the second in command, of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith since 2008 until 02/07/2017 and from this date on Pope Francis appointed Ladaria SJ. to the position of the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

Archbishop Ladaria SJ. teaching Universal Salvation since many years.

Excerpt from: Jesus Christ Salvation of All by Luis F. Ladaria SJ.

Quote: Jesus includes everyone and excludes no one, and all of us have received his fullness (cfr. John 1:16).
The universality of salvation and unity of Christ’s mediation mutually affirm each other [p. 144].

Yet by dying, he gave us life, that is the life of his resurrection.

Even those who do not know him are called to this divine vocation, that is, to the perfect son-ship in and through Christ.

Christians and non-Christians reach this goal by virtue of the gift of the Spirit that associates us with the unique paschal ministry of Christ even if it is through diverse paths known only to God [p. 148-149]. End quote.

Without going into the fine details:
The whole creation (Eph.1:10; Col.1:20) will be restored by recreation including every member of the entire human race.

Christ will rule aver the nations with the Saints/Body of Christ/Church.

Dan.7:13-14;
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven.
He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.

14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Dan.7:21-22;
21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them,

22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.

CCC 677 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.
God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.

Dan.7:27;
27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High.
His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.

Is.2:4;
He will judge between the nations
and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.

**UNIVERSAL SALVATION IS PART OF GOD’S ETERNAL PLAN **

John 15:5; “… for without Me you can do nothing.”

Matthew 19:25-26;
25. When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”

1. Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Nothing happen in the world without the authorisation of God.

God authorised the fall with all related evils in the world to bring out from a greater good from the evils of the world, which is the salvation of the whole human race, this is God’s will and plan from all eternity.

God bless Jcrichton and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

 

[richardwy]

Does Catholic theology hold that we can reason our way to faith? Does it teach that grace is required for spiritual understanding?

CCC ¶ 50 By natural reason man can know God with certainty, on the basis of his works. But there is another order of knowledge, which man cannot possibly arrive at by his own powers: the order of divine Revelation.

¶ 156 What moves us to believe is not the fact that revealed truths appear as true and intelligible in the light of our natural reason: we believe “because of the authority of God himself who reveals them, who can neither deceive nor be deceived.” So "that the submission of our faith might nevertheless be in accordance with reason, God willed that external proofs of his Revelation should be joined to the internal helps of the Holy Spirit.

¶ 27 Once our reason has grasped the idea of God’s almighty power, it will easily and without any hesitation admit everything that [the Creed] will afterwards propose for us to believe - even if they be great and marvelous things, far above the ordinary laws of nature."

¶ 36" Our holy mother, the Church, holds and teaches that God, the first principle and last end of all things, can be known with certainty from the created world by the natural light of human reason." Without this capacity, man would not be able to welcome God’s revelation. Man has this capacity because he is created “in the image of God.”

¶ 37 In the historical conditions in which he finds himself, however, man experiences many difficulties in coming to know God by the light of reason alone: ¶ 38 This is why man stands in need of being enlightened by God’s revelation, not only about those things that exceed his understanding, but also “about those religious and moral truths which of themselves are not beyond the grasp of human reason, so that even in the present condition of the human race, they can be known by all men with ease, with firm certainty and with no admixture of error.”

¶ 286 Human intelligence is surely already capable of finding a response to the question of origins. The existence of God the Creator can be known with certainty through his works, by the light of human reason, even if this knowledge is often obscured and disfigured by error. This is why faith comes to confirm and enlighten reason in the correct understanding of this truth: “By faith we understand that the world was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was made out of things which do not appear.”

¶ Faith is a grace: ¶ 153 When St. Peter confessed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, Jesus declared to him that this revelation did not come “from flesh and blood”, but from “my Father who is in heaven.” Faith is a gift of God, a supernatural virtue infused by him. “Before this faith can be exercised, man must have the grace of God to move and assist him; he must have the interior helps of the Holy Spirit, who moves the heart and converts it to God, who opens the eyes of the mind and ‘makes it easy for all to accept and believe the truth.’”

 

[jcrichton]

Continuation

The following early Fathers of the Church are said to have taught that all will finally be saved.

Pantaenus; Clement of Alexandria… Diodorus of Tarsus; Stephen bar Sudaili.

The doctrine of universal salvation has become very popular in the modern Roman Catholic Church.

**There is also a very good book on Universal Salvation:

Jesus Christ Salvation of All by Luis F. Ladaria SJ (Author)

EDITORIAL REVIEWS**
“Luis F. Ladaria SJ presents a powerful statement openly advocating the doctrine of universal salvation.
His advocacy of universal salvation is openly and undeniably proclaimed.” – David Sielaff, Associates for Scriptural Knowledge, ASK " David Sielaff, Associates for Scriptural Knowledge, ASK"

Archbishop Ladaria has been secretary, the second in command, of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith since 2008 until 02/07/2017 and from this date on Pope Francis appointed Ladaria SJ. to the position of the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

Archbishop Ladaria SJ. teaching Universal Salvation since many years.

Excerpt from: Jesus Christ Salvation of All by Luis F. Ladaria SJ.

Quote: Jesus includes everyone and excludes no one, and all of us have received his fullness (cfr. John 1:16).
The universality of salvation and unity of Christ’s mediation mutually affirm each other [p. 144].

Yet by dying, he gave us life, that is the life of his resurrection.

Even those who do not know him are called to this divine vocation, that is, to the perfect son-ship in and through Christ.

Christians and non-Christians reach this goal by virtue of the gift of the Spirit that associates us with the unique paschal ministry of Christ even if it is through diverse paths known only to God [p. 148-149]. End quote.

Without going into the fine details:
The whole creation (Eph.1:10; Col.1:20) will be restored by recreation including every member of the entire human race.

Christ will rule aver the nations with the Saints/Body of Christ/Church.

Dan.7:13-14;
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven.
He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.

14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Dan.7:21-22;
21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them,

22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.

CCC 677 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.
God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.

Dan.7:27;
27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High.
His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.

Is.2:4;
He will judge between the nations
and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.

**UNIVERSAL SALVATION IS PART OF GOD’S ETERNAL PLAN **

John 15:5; “… for without Me you can do nothing.”

Matthew 19:25-26;
25. When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”

1. Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Nothing happen in the world without the authorisation of God.

God authorised the fall with all related evils in the world to bring out from a greater good from the evils of the world, which is the salvation of the whole human race, this is God’s will and plan from all eternity.

God bless Jcrichton and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

Hi, Latin Right!

Firstly, I commend you for your efforts on the thread and I thank you for all of the work you’ve have contributed…

There are two things that stand out (I’m quite pedestrian, lacking most knowledge on most things, so please bear with me); it seems that there is double predestination since man can do nothing to save himself but also nothing to detract from God’s irrevocable Gift of Justification and Salvation… so how does this differ from Reformed Theology or OSAS… also, if there’s Universal Salvation (everyone no matter what is “Saved”) why will it matter if humanity would follow in the footsteps of Hitler, Mother Teresa of Calcutta, St. Francis of Assisi or Mao Tse-tung or Vlad the Impaler or strives to “be holy?”

Thank you again for your contribution.

God Bless!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Wesrock]

I have my disagreements with LatinRite, but I disagree that is “double predestination.” My understanding of double predestination is that man requires help from God to go to both heaven and hell, whereas acceptable prededtination is that man if left to his own devices merits to hell through his own works and needs no special “gift” to go there, but does need special election from God to go to Heaven.

So in both cases, God always knows who are the elect and who are the reprobate, and He knows this from all eternity, but in double predestination people go to hell because of some special anti-gift of God, but in acceptable predestination people go to hell of their own free will after having been offered graces. And of course the predestination of the elect is also in cooperation with man’s free will and response, such that man does have an active role in his salvation, not passive.

 

[jcrichton]

I have my disagreements with LatinRite, but I disagree that is “double predestination.” My understanding of double predestination is that man requires help from God to go to both heaven and hell, whereas acceptable prededtination is that man if left to his own devices merits to hell through his own works and needs no special “gift” to go there, but does need special election from God to go to Heaven.

So in both cases, God always knows who are the elect and who are the reprobate, and He knows this from all eternity, but in double predestination people go to hell because of some special anti-gift of God, but in acceptable predestination people go to hell of their own free will after having been offered graces. And of course the predestination of the elect is also in cooperation with man’s free will and response, such that man does have an active role in his salvation, not passive.

Hi, Wesrock!

It was I that introduced the double predestination argument… from what was offered it seemed to me that if God both elects some to Salvation and rejects all others then there’s double predestination since man cannot “Save” himself nor will himself to seek God (this by God’s choice) making him the exact creature of Luther’s and Calvin’s arguments.

…interestingly enough, Latin Right also offered the “universal salvation” argument which, to my comprehension, makes void all predestination arguments and all of Jesus’ Teaching–along with all of Christianity; thus Jesus is made void by God’s “universal salvation.”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[LatinRight]

Hi, Latin Right!

Firstly, I commend you for your efforts on the thread and I thank you for all of the work you’ve have contributed…

There are two things that stand out (I’m quite pedestrian, lacking most knowledge on most things, so please bear with me); it seems that there is double predestination since man can do nothing to save himself but also nothing to detract from God’s irrevocable Gift of Justification and Salvation… so how does this differ from Reformed Theology or OSAS… also, if there’s Universal Salvation (everyone no matter what is “Saved”) why will it matter if humanity would follow in the footsteps of Hitler, Mother Teresa of Calcutta, St. Francis of Assisi or Mao Tse-tung or Vlad the Impaler or strives to “be holy?”

Thank you again for your contribution.

God Bless!

Maran atha!

Angel

**God bless you Jcrichton and every readers of the CAF.

Thank you for your post.

You said Jcrichton:**
It seems that there is double predestination since man can do nothing to save himself but also nothing to detract from God’s irrevocable Gift of Justification and Salvation.

Your above statement and your conclusions are both correct, because if there is no Universal Salvation (man can do nothing to save himself), then double predestination is an Absolute Necessity!!!

First group of theological facts that shows:
MAN CAN DO NOTHING TO SAVE HIMSELF

Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582).

**COUNCIL OF TRENT Session 6 Chapter 8 **
. . . None of those things which precede justification - whether faith or works - merit the grace itself of justification.

John 15:5; “… for without Me you can do nothing.”

Matthew 19:25-26;
25. When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”

1. Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Excerpt from the Catholic Encyclopedia Predestination.

“How can that will to save (God’s will that everyone saved, if there is no Universal Salvation) be called serious and sincere which has decreed from all eternity the metaphysical impossibility of salvation?” In the brackets added.

The above excerpt later will comes in context.

Acts 13:48;
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

When God calls and draws an Initially Justified/elect into His service/salvation WITHOUT stimulus, merit, or condition. and without regard to any future supernatural merits, His calling is backed up with an ABSOLUTE DECREE and in consequence of this DECREE, God gives them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment. – Furthermore this ABSOLUTE DECREE includes the INFALLIBLE entrance to heaven.

John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you. It is clear, God’s election into the Bride of Christ/Church is 100 % His choice and 0 % man’s choice.

Did you notice also in Acts 13:48?
As many as were ordained to eternal life believed, no one resisted God’s call into the Bride of Christ.

The above Theological Facts more then enough proof:
Man can do nothing to save himself.

Second groups of theological facts that shows:
NOTHING TO DETRACT FROM GOD’S CALL AND PREDESTINATION TO HEAVEN / INTO THE BRIDE OF CHRIST / SALVATION

John 5:24;
Most assuredly I say to you, he who hears my word and believes Him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
(Only their works will be judged. – 1 Cor.3:12-15.)

Ez.36:25-27;
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; **I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. **

26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my Spirit in you and CAUSE YOU (our cooperation is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation) TO FOLLOW MY DECREES and be careful to keep my laws. – In the brackets added.

Rom.11:29;
For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

GOD’S PREDESTINATION TO HEAVEN / INTO THE BRIDE OF CHRIST

**The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a *DE FIDE *Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect.**

Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

**THE THEORY OF PREDESTINATION prævisa merita

THIS THEORY, CHAMPIONED BY all Thomists and a few Molinists (as Bellarmine, Francisco Suárez, Francis de Lugo):**

Asserts that God, by an absolute decree and without regard to any future supernatural merits, predestined from all eternity certain men to the glory of heaven, and then, in consequence of this decree, decided to give them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment. End quote.

The above Theological Facts in the Scripture and the above DE FIDE Dogma more then enough proof:

Nothing to detract from God’s call and predestination to heaven/into the Bride of Christ/Salvation.

SUMMARY

**In above we have far more then enough proof: **

If there is no universal salvation, then there is double predestination since man can do nothing to save himself but also nothing to detract from God’s irrevocable Gift of Justification and Salvation.

**CONTINUATION OF THE CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: PREDESTINATION

EXCERPT**
Considering that not all men reach their supernatural end in heaven, but that many are eternally lost, there MUST EXIST a twofold predestination:

(a) one to heaven …

(b) one to the pains of hell …

However, according to present usages to which we shall adhere in the course of the article, it is better to call the latter decree the Divine “reprobation,” so that the term predestination is reserved for the Divine decree of the happiness of the elect.

The COUNTERPART of the predestination of the good is the decree the Divine "reprobation."

This plan of Divine reprobation may be conceived either as absolute and unconditional or conditional.

The conceptual difference between the two kinds of reprobation lies in this:

(a) **NEGATIVE REPROBATION **merely implies the absolute will not to grant the bliss of heaven, though not positively predestined to hell, yet they are absolutely predestined not to go to heaven (cf. above, I, B).

(b) **POSITIVE REPROBATION **means the absolute will to condemn to hell.

Whatever view one may take regarding the internal probability of negative reprobation, it cannot be harmonized with the dogmatically certain universality and sincerity of God’s salvific will.

For the absolute predestination of the blessed is at the same time the absolute will of God “not to elect” a priori the rest of mankind (Suarez), or which comes to the same, “to exclude them from heaven” (Gonet), in other words, not to save them.

How can that will to save be called serious and sincere which has decreed from all eternity the metaphysical impossibility of salvation?

He who has been reprobated negatively, may exhaust all his efforts to attain salvation: it avail’s him nothing.

Moreover, in order to realize infallibly his decree, God is compelled to frustrate the eternal welfare of all excluded a priori from heaven, and to take care that they die in their sins.

**Is this the language in which Holy Writ speaks to us? **

No; there we meet an anxious, loving father, who wills not “that any should perish, but that all should return to penance” (2 Peter 3:9).

Lessius rightly says that it would be indifferent to him whether he was numbered among those reprobated positively or negatively; for, in either case, his eternal damnation would be certain.

The reason for this is that in the present economy exclusion from heaven means for adults practically the same thing as damnation.

A middle state, a merely natural happiness, does not exist. End quote.

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

SUMMARY

1. Whatever view one may take regarding the internal probability of negative reprobation, it cannot be harmonized with the dogmatically certain universality and sincerity of God’s salvific will.
2. For the absolute predestination of the blessed is at the same time the absolute will of God “not to elect” a priori the rest of mankind (Suarez), or which comes to the same, “to exclude them from heaven” (Gonet), in other words, not to save them.
3. How can that will to save be called serious and sincere which has decreed from all eternity the metaphysical impossibility of salvation?
4. He who has been reprobated negatively, may exhaust all his efforts to attain salvation: it avail’s him nothing.
5. Moreover, in order to realize infallibly his decree, God is compelled to frustrate the eternal welfare of all excluded a priori from heaven, and to take care that they die in their sins.

The above 5 points says it all, reprobation (anyone end up in hell), cannot be harmonized with the dogmatically certain universality and sincerity of God’s salvific will.

Christ sacrifice on the cross opened up the reality of Universal Salvation and as the human race CAN NOT save themselves, only God can save the human race, God’s Justice demands Universal Salvation, which is the will and the plan of God from all Eternity.

1 John 2:2;
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

In the light of the above theological facts, we cannot be surprised that many early Church Fathers knew the above theological facts and they have taught that all will finally be saved.

The doctrine of universal salvation has become very popular in the modern Roman Catholic Church and these days more and more Priests teaching Universal Salvation.

The following early Fathers of the Church are said to have taught that all will finally be saved.

Pantaenus; Clement of Alexandria; Origen; Athanasius; Didymus the Blind; Macarius of Egypt; Gregory Thaumaturgus; Ambrose; Ephraim; John Chrysostum; Gregory of Nyssa; Gregory of Nazianzus; Jerome of Bethlehem; Evagrius Ponticus; Titus of Bastra; Asterius of Amasea; Cyril; Methodius of Tyre; Pamphilius Eusibius; Hillary of Poitiers; Victorinus; Macrina the Younger; Dionysius the Areopagite; John Cassian; Maximus the Confessor; Proclus of Constantinople; Peter Chrysologus; Diodorus of Tarsus; Stephen bar Sudaili.

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

Your other two questions Jcrichton:

So how does this differ from Reformed Theology or OSAS… also, if there’s Universal Salvation (everyone no matter what is “Saved”) why will it matter if humanity would follow in the footsteps of Hitler, Mother Teresa of Calcutta, St. Francis of Assisi or Mao Tse-tung or Vlad the Impaler or strives to “be holy?”

Answer of the first question:

As far as I know, the Catholic Predestination of the elect and the Reform Theology or OSAS practically the same.

Answer of the second question:

I don’t think (of course only God knows) Hitler or Mao Tse-tung elected and predestined to be members of the Bride of Christ/Church whom Christ will rule over the nations.

Christ will rule over the Nations with His Bride.

Hitler and Mao Tse-tung and others will be RECREATED by God like everyone else and they will become members of the Nations and Christ will rule over them with His Bride/The Church **as it is described below. **

Dan.7:14;
He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

CCC 677 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.
God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.

Dan.7:21-22;
21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them,

22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.

Dan.7:27;
27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High.
His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.

Is.2:4;
He will judge between the nations
and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.

THE NEW EARTH AND THE NEW HEAVEN WILL BECOME ONE IN CHRIST

Revelation 21:2, 10, 24, 26;
2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.

24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it.

26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.

1 Cor.2:9;
However, as it is written:
“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”
the things God has prepared for those who love Him.”

Did you consider Jcrichton, if there is no Universal Salvation, the Nations condemned to hell, and only the Church/Bride of Christ saved?

Christ will come down from heaven with His Bride to rule over all the Nations, no Universal Salvation, no Nations, then Christ will rules with His Bride over whom???

IT IS CRUCIALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE DO OUR BEST DURING OUR PROGRESSIVE JUSTIFICATION!!!

At our Initial Justification God irrevocably set us up to Heaven, to the Bride of Christ, of course with Christ we will come down from heaven for rule over all the Nations with Christ CCC 677; Dan.7:21-22; etc.

During our Progressive Justification, as we are members of the Bride of Christ/Church, by our Works of Love, we set up our position and glory in Heaven/In the Bride of Christ by our cooperation with the grace of God.

Christ will rule over the Nations with us, our future positions depends on the way we are acting today.

God bless you Jcrichton and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

 

[e_c]

One of the reasons I felt drawn to Calvinist theology is the idea of total depravity. That’s not the idea that people are all bad, or as bad as they could possibly be, but that every part of our nature is fallen: our bodies are fallen, our minds are fallen, our wills are fallen, our emotions are fallen. And, our reason is fallen, so we cannot simply reason our way to God.

This resonated with me because I know that things that had seemed silly or wrong to me before my conversion made sense after. God absolutely gave me the grace to receive the truth of the gospel.

The more extreme consequences of total depravity I’m not sure I agree with–I don’t know that God actually sees our best work as filthy rags because they are tainted by our sin. However, I definitely believe that, absent God’s grace in our lives and work in our hearts, we cannot come to accept spiritual truth.

Does Catholic theology hold that we can reason our way to faith? Does it teach that grace is required for spiritual understanding?

John runs to the empty tomb. Peter is the first to enter.

Adam had a special infused knowledge of things, as a product of his special state of grace. We do not recover that kind of knowledge in this life except by something extraordinary (prophecy, etc.).

Faith is also an infusion of knowledge whereby we trust God, the Author of Grace, as a revelator of particular truths about Himself and His activity.

We can, however, “know Him from the things He has created,” as St. Paul says (Romans 1:20). But this is as in a “darkened mirror,” not face to face. Etc. We can’t, for example, know that God is three Persons without His help. We can know that He is not essentially a body.

 

[jcrichton]

Continuation

Your other two questions Jcrichton:

So how does this differ from Reformed Theology or OSAS… also, if there’s Universal Salvation (everyone no matter what is “Saved”) why will it matter if humanity would follow in the footsteps of Hitler, Mother Teresa of Calcutta, St. Francis of Assisi or Mao Tse-tung or Vlad the Impaler or strives to “be holy?”

Answer of the first question:

As far as I know, the Catholic Predestination of the elect and the Reform Theology or OSAS practically the same.

Answer of the second question:

I don’t think (of course only God knows) Hitler or Mao Tse-tung elected and predestined to be members of the Bride of Christ/Church whom Christ will rule over the nations.

Christ will rule over the Nations with His Bride.

Dan.7:14;
He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

CCC 677 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.
God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.

Dan.7:21-22;
21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them,

22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.

Dan.7:27;
27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High.
His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.

Is.2:4;
He will judge between the nations
and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.

THE NEW EARTH AND THE NEW HEAVEN WILL BECOME ONE IN CHRIST

Revelation 21:2, 10, 24, 26;
2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.

24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it.

26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.

1 Cor.2:9;
However, as it is written:
“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”
the things God has prepared for those who love Him.”

Did you consider Jcrichton, if there is no Universal Salvation, the Nations condemned to hell, and only the Church/Bride of Christ saved?

Christ will come down from heaven with His Bride to rule over all the Nations, no Universal Salvation, no Nations, then Christ will rules with His Bride over whom???

IT IS CRUCIALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE DO OUR BEST DURING OUR PROGRESSIVE JUSTIFICATION!!!

At our Initial Justification God irrevocably set us up to Heaven, to the Bride of Christ, of course with Christ we will come down from heaven for rule over all the Nations with Christ CCC 677; Dan.7:21-22; etc.

During our Progressive Justification, as we are members of the Bride of Christ/Church, by our Works of Love, we set up our position and glory in Heaven/In the Bride of Christ by our cooperation with the grace of God.

Christ will rule over the Nations with us, our future positions depends on the way we are acting today.

God bless you Jcrichton and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

Hi, Latin Right!

Please understand, I do not mean any disrespect… however, the premise of God’s Salvific Plan is not that there is “universal salvation” as ‘every single human being will go to Heaven no matter what.’

Universal Salvation is guaranteed by Christ but only to the extent that is set by the Word of God (St. John 3:14-21; 1:1-13); if all of humanity would be “saved” regardless of their unrighteousness and determination to reject God then all Scriptures that demand that man turn from sin to God is void. Further, double predestination, where God both “Wills” some to Salvation and “Wills” others to damnation goes empirically against God’s own Revelation:

30 House of Israel, in future I mean to judge each of you by what he does – it is the Lord Yahweh who speaks. Repent, renounce all your sins, avoid all occasions of sin! 31 Shake off all the sins you have committed against me, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why are you so anxious to die, House of Israel? 32 I take no pleasure in the death of anyone – it is the Lord Yahweh who speaks. Repent and live!

(Ezekiel 18:30-32)
If the wicked and the righteous enjoy the same wages then Scriptures that demand to put on Christ (Be Holy) are void, null, and superfluous.

Maran atha!

Angel