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Brian_Culliton
Guest
From one former Catholic to another, you are a good witness for Christ’s truth Priscilla Ann!!
God bless you!
- Status
God bless you!
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Priscilla_Ann
Guest
Hi, Brian!
It’s good to meet another former Catholic. It is sometimes difficult, but we were never promised that this path would be easy. This journey can be difficult, but we have put our faith in the truth of God’s Word. We do not boast of our religion; we boast only of our Lord.
I am reminded of 1 John 5:11-13:
“And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life”.
God bless you, Brian!
Priscilla
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brb3
Guest
Perhaps you might share your reasons for leaving the Church of the Apostles.
Yes, we boast of our Lord. But, he is head of his Church too. He tells us in scripture he wants his flock unified. How are you building unity by your actions ? Don’t you long for the True Eucharist ? Isn’t your body/soul so starved for the grace thereof ?
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Priscilla_Ann
Guest
“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast.” Ephesians 2:8-9
I have been saved by grace through faith in Christ. He is my Lord and my Savior – how can I be starved for more?
My intent is not to divide; and if I have been less than kind, I am so sorry. My only desire is for people to know that salvation is through trusting in Christ alone. He alone paid the price for our sins. Let God’s Word penetrate your heart.
“For the wages of sin is dath, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
Romans 6:23
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paul_c
Guest
Do you honestly think its helpful to preach to Catholics that they must trust in Christ? As a former Catholic, how do you think Catholics are deficient in this regard? Can you name one thing you have done as a separated Catholic that you couldn’t do as a Catholic? I"ll bet not. But I’ll bet you can name some things you no onger have to do as a non-Catholic that was expected of you as a Catholic, like going to mass and partaking of the sacraments .
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brb3
Guest
Perhaps you never received Rebirth as a Catholic, but did later in life. Catholics acknowledge that Protestants are justified by faith & their Protestant Trinitarian Baptisms. But, we know they are separated from the FULL graces available thru the Catholic Church.
Just because you may have been redeemed in a Protestant setting, doesn’t mean that there is no redemption in the Catholic Church, or that you have discovered the true Church in your Protestant group. Many reborn Protestants have come to the Catholic Church later in their Christian lives. God gave us the grace to discover the Church of the Apostles. And, the Eucharist is the Proof of this FACT, along with the other sacraments.
Without receiving the Eucharist on regular basis … you are experiencing a degree of grace deficiency, and putting your ability to persevere ‘in faith’ at risk. Christ feeds his flock thru the Eucharist. You are being starved … physically and spiritually.
If you were baptized as Catholic, return at once, make full confession and receive the Eucharist again. Any church you might now attend, that does not provide you with a valid Eucharist, is not a Church Christ is fully happy with. Remember, the churches described in Revelation by John. Most had big error. There was ONE that Christ was generally pleased with. Which one was that ?
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whatischarity
Guest
I sometimes wonder why Catholics are not noticeably morally better than others. Why the common Catholic, with all the access to the truth and the sacraments, isn’t obviosly holier than others. Seems like Catholics are getting divorced at about the same rate as others. Aren’t a lot of Catholics questioning their church on topics like divorce, artificial birth control, illegal immigration, the death penalty. I accept that all who are saved are saved through faith in Jesus through the church He founded for this explicit purpose, but I wonder why Catholics continue to drink and cuss and swear and carouse.
I guess it is the allegory to “There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church” which would be what? “You don’t get saved by attending a Catholic Church either unless you unite yourself with Jesus.”
I believe the Chruch made great strides with the more recent clarifications about salvation in that belonging to the Church founded by Jesus is not a club or weapon or threat but rather an opportunity or benefit or a pearl of great price.
I guess it is the allegory to “There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church” which would be what? “You don’t get saved by attending a Catholic Church either unless you unite yourself with Jesus.”
I believe the Chruch made great strides with the more recent clarifications about salvation in that belonging to the Church founded by Jesus is not a club or weapon or threat but rather an opportunity or benefit or a pearl of great price.
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whatischarity
Guest
I have read a lot of this thread and you have written many many really long responses. At times I feel you go too far. An example is in your last line when you relate what is in the hearts on non-Catholics. Be careful. It would be one thing if every Catholic were saved since they were in the Church. We know this is not the case.
The thread is “Do Catholics believe Protestants are going to hell?” There have been posts of what the Church explicitly teaches. Let the protestant read that. Let the protestant also understand that Catholics believe Catholics are going to hell. Thus, the Protestant will realize they are not being singled out by Catholics.drive them to the truth or drive them crazy trying to reject what they know in their hearts is true.
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rinnie
Guest
Bluelake I am pleased to admit we are in agreement. We are never to judge anothers soul, Thats Gods work, We do not know anothers heart. I agree!aspirant,
Judging the salvation of others , especially if you are a christian?? Pray for others instead, We don’t know their heart, but the Lord does.
Mt.7:1-2 reads “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the same measure you use, it will be measured to you.”
The Bible also speaks of the sin of pride. it’s in Proverbs.
God bless you,
bluelake
But are we not to stand up to sin, are we not to confront sin head on and not accept sin, Is seeing a brother or sister living in complete conflict with Gods word judgeing anothers soul. I think not. Is it not our duty to see a brother or sister in trouble to try to help them and bring them back to the goodness of the Church.
Did the Protical Son not do wrong, we he not judged for his sin and forgiven? Was his sin ignored. I think not. His Father prayed for him to come home and forgave him. And did the son not confess his sin and repent.
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rinnie
Guest
Excuse me! How can anyone be a good witness for Christs truth when they cannot acknowledge that Jesus Christ is the CC. Prisicilla Ann not only separated herself from the CC she is spreading false truths and saying that Jesus Christ is separate from the CC.
THis is nothing but bearing false witness.
SauL Saul why are you persecuting me. who are you. IT IS I JESUS. Everyone knows Saul was persecuting the CC. Jesus and his Church are one. To deny otherwise would be dishonest. Alone in direct conflict with the word of God.
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rinnie
Guest
What does quoting scripture have to do with you rejecting the CC the CC that was started by Jesus Christ and led by the power of the HS by the Apostles?
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Brian, I am very disappointed. I though you were a notch above the mores of non-Catholic apologists we typically see in these forums. Just because I presented you with Catholic teachings and gave you some solid Catholic arguments in this OP that you can’t refute you now see fit to attack me personally for some links in my signature profile? Wow - I can feel the love here. You must be desperate to try to discredit me.
How ironic that in a few other OPs threads I have participated in I have heard Protestants recommencing Billy Graham’s “How to be Born Again” book and the “Rapture - left behind books” as if they were inspired works of the Holy Spirit. Would you be inclined to attack them personally too?
This link about praying for those in purgatory comes from a highly regarded Benedictine nun saint named St. Gertrude - considered a saint but not officially beatified. She was an orphan left at the convent and grew up to become one of the most intellectual and highly educated woman in all the middle ages. This prayer pertains to what we call “private revelation” that came to her from an encounter with Jesus. It is not a required belief but is held safe to believe by the faithful and bears the imprimatur of a bishop.
Given that you yourself have used the early church Catholic father’s historical writings in some of your dialog why are you being inconsistent and trying to claim that you only accept bible alone teaching when you don’t? You can’t have it both ways.
Tell you what - if you can find a single verse in the Bible that tells us the bible is the sole rule of faith or that anything but The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth or that tradition is to be ignored I will remove the links if they offend you. Deal? I’ll be waiting for your comments…
Please show me in the bible where Jesus or an apostles taught us that the bible contains all that was ever taught by Jesus or the apostles.
The Rosary is just a list of prayers - whats your problem with it? You reading Jack Chick comic booksl?
Originally Catholic religious used to pray the 150 psalms over a fixed period of time and the laity wanted to also participate in prayer but being unable to read and having few bibles (due to expense of hand copying them - a life work for a monk) they made 150 knots (15 decades) in a cord of twine to use to count their prayers. Rather than pray the psalms which were too hard to memorize a tradition of using the Lord’s Prayer, the Hail Mary (all scriptural based) and a few other short prayers developed. Today most Catholics do a shorter version of 50 prayers - 5 decades. This is a prayer style that is meditative on the gospel. I can’t imagine why you or anyone would object to it.as for Indulgences I bet you don’t even know what they are. These do not forgive sin - they are only for penance and for aiding the deceased who were already judged worthy of heaven but some still have not yet reached their full sanctification in life. Catholics may pray for these and do acts of sufferage in the hope and trust that God will speed their final preparation for heaven in purgatory. There is plenty of scriptural support for purgatory and the efficacy of prayers and alms etc. But this is not explicitly taught as an essential belief for salvation - its a deeper spiritual discipline and act of charity. But its starting to get a lot of new following now that Catholics understand that Charity to neighbor does not end at death but is an obligation even for those already deceased.
[continued]
James
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Amen brother! So why are you following a new gospel of man (the reformers) that teaches sola-fide and sola scriptura when no apostle ever handed this down to us?
Go back and read Paul’s work very closely and tell me with a straight face that when he speaks of the gifts of the members of Christ (spoken today in our Catholic mass BTW) that he does not mention a gift of prophesy and other gifts. I dare you. Catholics are not required to believe private revelation as we already have all the essentials for salvation from Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture. But Jesus told us that at times of special need and when the Church was ready the Holy Spirit would tell us things too wonderful to yet know - but never in contradiction with what had already been conveyed. God gives many “helps” and “graces” through His Church - and most of these take the form of special spiritual devotions that somehow always honor Jesus more greatly and bring us into a deeper love relationship. Why would you object to a special spiritual focus on Divine Mercy? I mean really? Have you seen anything about Divine Mercy revelations that contradicts scripture in the least? We are told that this period we are in right now is Christ’s FINAL Mercy and that those who do not respond to His Divine Mercy will have nothing left but His Divine Justice and it will be severe since Mercy will have already been spent when He comes as Just Judge. I’d stop criticizing and start looking into it.
No - you just can’t see the very simply and straightforward logic and rationale that if one puts their faith in Jesus and then Jesus gives her special gifts through the Church to help but one denies His gifts then one does not trust Jesus nor place their faith in him. Listen, most of you all already do not put your faith in ALL Jesus said since you reject the Eucharist as real-presence. So don’t give me double talk. Go back and re-read John 6:66 about how the “easy believism” Christians all turned their back on Christ as soon as He gave more difficult teachings about his best gifts he had to give us. And don’t try to say these tough Jews were running away from a metaphor since Jesus said it 3 times.
If one has faith in Jesus they better listen to ALL that he says and DO all that he commands. If he gives you a gift and you say “all I need is Jesus” then you are being foolish and insincere in your faith. The Catholic Church is of Christ Himself and is His Gift to God’s People. The Church itself is not an object of worship but an INSTRUMENT of grace. Would you not enter the Arc when the floods came because you had faith in the Lord and not in His instruments? Come on - time to get to the adult food.
James
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Major_Tom
Guest
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Pete_Holter
Guest
Hi again, Priscilla Ann.
You had quoted from Ephesians 2 earlier and I am hoping that if you do not see baptism in this portion of Scripture, that you will take the time to compare Ephesians 2:1-10 with its complementary passages found in Romans 5:12-6:14 and Colossians 2:11-15. If you make the comparisons, I think that you will see that this grace of God described in Ephesians 2 is bestowed upon us by baptism and in baptism. That’s when we are united to Christ’s death to sin, and when we are also raised up together with Him to walk in newness of life. This is when we receive the forgiveness of past sins, calling on the Name of Jesus (cf. Acts 2:38, 22:16; Romans 10:6-13; 2 Peter 1:9).
Although baptism is not mentioned by name in Ephesians, the parallels are unmistakable.
In Colossians 2:13, we see that before baptism we were dead in our trespasses and, in the words of Romans 5:21, “sin reigned in death.” This is our same condition described in Ephesians 2:5: “we were dead in our trespasses” (cf. Ephesians 2:1).
Colossians 2:13 says that in baptism we were “raised with Him through faith.” In Romans, Paul says that by virtue of our union with Christ in baptism, we should consider ourselves “alive to God… in the life He lives,” i.e., in Jesus’ resurrected life (Romans 6:10-11). Ephesians 2:6 says that God, by the grace with which He saved us, “raised us up with Him.”
According to Romans 6:4, our burial with Christ in baptism enables us to walk in newness of life, and this “walking” here is just the same as the “walking” in good works described in Ephesians 2:10.
What is fascinating to note is that the sections of Romans only mention baptism. The section in Ephesians only mentions faith. And the section in Colossians mentions both faith and baptism. And so we see how they all nicely fit together and complement one another. All three sections, on the other hand, mention the grace of God. The unmerited grace of God in Christ Jesus our Lord!
”If only we encase ourselves in the armor of salvation against such a conflict, once we begin to refrain from sinning, we shall little by little blunt the edge of the enemy’s attack and sap his strength; until at length we shall wing our flight to that place of repose, where triumph and boundless joy will be ours. The credit of the victory is to be ascribed solely to the grace of God, which within us gives light to the mind and strength to the will, when we rise superior to so many hindrances and contests. It is the grace of God, We say. For as He created us, so is He able, through the treasures of His wisdom and power, to set aflame and fill our hearts wholly with His love” (Pope Pius XI, Ad Salutem Humani).
By the grace and love of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Pete
You had quoted from Ephesians 2 earlier and I am hoping that if you do not see baptism in this portion of Scripture, that you will take the time to compare Ephesians 2:1-10 with its complementary passages found in Romans 5:12-6:14 and Colossians 2:11-15. If you make the comparisons, I think that you will see that this grace of God described in Ephesians 2 is bestowed upon us by baptism and in baptism. That’s when we are united to Christ’s death to sin, and when we are also raised up together with Him to walk in newness of life. This is when we receive the forgiveness of past sins, calling on the Name of Jesus (cf. Acts 2:38, 22:16; Romans 10:6-13; 2 Peter 1:9).
Although baptism is not mentioned by name in Ephesians, the parallels are unmistakable.
In Colossians 2:13, we see that before baptism we were dead in our trespasses and, in the words of Romans 5:21, “sin reigned in death.” This is our same condition described in Ephesians 2:5: “we were dead in our trespasses” (cf. Ephesians 2:1).
Colossians 2:13 says that in baptism we were “raised with Him through faith.” In Romans, Paul says that by virtue of our union with Christ in baptism, we should consider ourselves “alive to God… in the life He lives,” i.e., in Jesus’ resurrected life (Romans 6:10-11). Ephesians 2:6 says that God, by the grace with which He saved us, “raised us up with Him.”
According to Romans 6:4, our burial with Christ in baptism enables us to walk in newness of life, and this “walking” here is just the same as the “walking” in good works described in Ephesians 2:10.
What is fascinating to note is that the sections of Romans only mention baptism. The section in Ephesians only mentions faith. And the section in Colossians mentions both faith and baptism. And so we see how they all nicely fit together and complement one another. All three sections, on the other hand, mention the grace of God. The unmerited grace of God in Christ Jesus our Lord!
”If only we encase ourselves in the armor of salvation against such a conflict, once we begin to refrain from sinning, we shall little by little blunt the edge of the enemy’s attack and sap his strength; until at length we shall wing our flight to that place of repose, where triumph and boundless joy will be ours. The credit of the victory is to be ascribed solely to the grace of God, which within us gives light to the mind and strength to the will, when we rise superior to so many hindrances and contests. It is the grace of God, We say. For as He created us, so is He able, through the treasures of His wisdom and power, to set aflame and fill our hearts wholly with His love” (Pope Pius XI, Ad Salutem Humani).
By the grace and love of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Pete
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Pete_Holter
Guest
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
I’d recommend that you stop hanging around “Cultural Catholics” too much and try to get around the lessor number of Catholics who are very pious, holy and are practising the faith in a mature relationship with Christ. These will inspire more positive observations. Many of these pious Catholic you will see coming each morning to daily mass.
There are many people who call themselves “Christian” or “Catholic” but are nothing of the sort or are going through a "down period’ in their life - a (hopefully) temporary spiritual setback. The beautiful thing about the Catholic Church is that it is FULL to the brim with sinners and also with a much lessor number of fully practising members who “get it”; the latter praying for the others to “wake up” before its too late. For the cultural Catholics it usually takes a major life changing event like the death of a loved or near tragedy to bring them out of their false complacency & narrow minded view of the faith to take refuge in Christ’s gift of the Church and really start getting further along in their sanctification process. But here too is where the Catholic Church absolutely soars - since there is so many sacraments and opportunities for grace that one stands the best chance of regaining their baptismal purity and commitment while being formal members of The Church even when one is deficient in the practises of the faith (prayer, repentance, sacraments, devotionals etc.). Whereas those outside of the Catholic Church and who fall away usually blame the minster or the congregation and bail out to “church shop” if not completely abandon the faith and think they are “saved” by mere belief.
Yes - I like your closing comments. The PROPER view of the Church is to see it as a PRECIOUS GIFT from JESUS HIMSELF. The Church is both Christ’s Body and His Bride. After Christ’s Ascension, Mary was the one who stayed behind to nurture and support the apostles after Christ ascended. She was present in the upper room at pentecost and appointed to John’s care. Jesus gave us His Mother also as a gift as the first Christian at the foot of the cross (ref. St. John). Mary is also our spiritual Mother - the New Eve. But few people probably think of Mary as God’s gift to His Son - His mother. Just as the Wise Men brought gifts of Gold, Frankincense and Myrrh God created Mary to be His gift to His son - the greatest human gift He could give His Son as the First Christian and His Mother. God’s gift to Christ is making Mary “blessed above women” so she would be a fitting Gift to Jesus’ as His Mother (of her own free assent). How Divine that Jesus would later from the cross entrust that same gift to the trust of His Church.
I think we should see the NT more in terms of gift giving. God gives the best that humanity has to offer, that is Mary, as a first gift to His Son. Mary is first Christian. How ironic that some can’t recognize the value of gifts or are too proud to accept them since they know that they can’t repay the generosity. How doubly ironic that humanity (viz Adam & Eve) would become thieves to steal the forbidden fruit against God’s will but now it can’t believe the goodness of the Lord to accept His free gifts! Before it was Satan telling us to not trust God and steal from God. But now its been reversed as Satan is telling us “don’t take God’s gifts since its a deception that can’t do anything for you”.
My further thoughts on these matters:
[continued]
James
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
[From Prior - FURTHER THOUGHTS ON CENTRALITY OF EUCHARIST linked to FAITH]
whatischarity:
We simply CAN NOT love and trust Jesus unless we come to really know Him and recognize Him through the gifts He gives us. This is why I am now certain that Eucharist is the one sure and normative thing that Jesus will use to definitively judge who KNEW HIM and RECOGNIZED HIM (ref. Luke 24:35 They began to relate their experiences on the road and how He was recognized by them in the breaking of the bread. ). Those who refuse to “see” Jesus in His gift of Eucharist are in grave danger of being those who did not really known Jesus - the crowd of strangers that said “Lord Lord” but who never really knew Christ. In much the same way that the early Church recognized each other during periods of persecution by the “symbol” (password) of the Old Roman Creed so too Jesus knows His own by those who honored Him by accepting His Gift of Eucharist. What one does is what one really believes. Here is more scripture evidence about recognizing Jesus in Eucharist:
*
Luke 24:28-31
And they approached the village where they were going, and He acted as though He were going farther. 29 But they urged Him, saying, “Stay with us, for it is getting toward evening, and the day is now nearly over.” So He went in to stay with them. 30 When He had reclined at the table with them,** He took the bread and blessed it, and breaking it**, He began giving it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized Him; and He vanished from their sight
If the above does not sound like Eucharist I don’t know what else it would take to convince someone - this is why faith too is gift.
And here again is yet another example of where Jesus links faith to Eucharist:
FAITH AND EUCHARIST ARE INSEPARABLY LINKED TO SALVATION.
John 6:34 They [the “lipservice followers”] said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”
John 6:35-40
Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. **36But I said to you that you have seen me **and yet do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
Salvation requires BOTH Faith AND SEEING Christ in Eucharist. Eucharist is the ultimate test of faith.
Catholics (and Orthodox) are the only Christians who both BELIEVE in the Lord AND LOOK on the Lord and WORSHIP Him in The Eucharist. This is TRUE and perfect WORSHIP and what is perfectly acceptable to God (ref. imagery of Cain and Abel for false worship). We also look onto the Son through our Catholic Charity in the Image of Christ reflected in the faces of those Christ most related too: the downtrodden, the poor, the sick, the orphan & the widow. But only in Eucharist can Christians look on the Son in a real sign of His presence in: Divinity, Body, Blood and Soul. Where do Protestants look at the Son in His Divinity so that they should have assurances of eternal life too? It is Impossible outside of full communion with Christ His Gift of the Catholic Church or outside of direct intervention of supernatural Divine Mercy and the good graces that flow through Christ’s Church.
Here is something else to observe - Peter tried to “blend in” with Jesus’ enemies while Christ was being interrogated and bullied (and denies Christ). Notice how the apostle John goes out of his way to link and contrast the denial of Christ to a recognition of Christ in the Eucharist by using the imagery a charcoal fire in each account?. This can’t be coincidental. In the first image (Jhn 18:25), Peter is trying to blend-in with Christ’s enemies and sharing their warm charcoal fire as if one of them. In the second image (John 21:9-13) the apostles are gathered together and brought into an awareness of Christ in the recognition of the presence of the bread. The linkage to Eucharist is popping up all over the NT - its a central and core teaching for Christians.
Peter’s Denial of Jesus
John 18:25 Meanwhile, as Simon Peter was standing by the [ref. John 18:18 - "charcoal fire"] warming himself, they asked him again, “You’re not one of his disciples, are you?” He denied it, saying, “No, I am not.”
…
Jesus Appears at the Sea of Galilee (after resurrection)
John 21:9 So when they got out on the land, they saw a charcoal fire already laid and fish placed on it, and bread.
…
John 21:12-13 Jesus said to them, “Come and have breakfast.” None of the disciples ventured to question Him, “Who are You?” knowing that it was the Lord. 13 Jesus came and took the bread and gave it to them, and the fish likewise.
…
Math 4:19 “… I will make you fishers of men”.*
James
We simply CAN NOT love and trust Jesus unless we come to really know Him and recognize Him through the gifts He gives us. This is why I am now certain that Eucharist is the one sure and normative thing that Jesus will use to definitively judge who KNEW HIM and RECOGNIZED HIM (ref. Luke 24:35 They began to relate their experiences on the road and how He was recognized by them in the breaking of the bread. ). Those who refuse to “see” Jesus in His gift of Eucharist are in grave danger of being those who did not really known Jesus - the crowd of strangers that said “Lord Lord” but who never really knew Christ. In much the same way that the early Church recognized each other during periods of persecution by the “symbol” (password) of the Old Roman Creed so too Jesus knows His own by those who honored Him by accepting His Gift of Eucharist. What one does is what one really believes. Here is more scripture evidence about recognizing Jesus in Eucharist:
*
Luke 24:28-31
And they approached the village where they were going, and He acted as though He were going farther. 29 But they urged Him, saying, “Stay with us, for it is getting toward evening, and the day is now nearly over.” So He went in to stay with them. 30 When He had reclined at the table with them,** He took the bread and blessed it, and breaking it**, He began giving it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized Him; and He vanished from their sight
If the above does not sound like Eucharist I don’t know what else it would take to convince someone - this is why faith too is gift.
And here again is yet another example of where Jesus links faith to Eucharist:
FAITH AND EUCHARIST ARE INSEPARABLY LINKED TO SALVATION.
John 6:34 They [the “lipservice followers”] said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”
John 6:35-40
Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. **36But I said to you that you have seen me **and yet do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
Salvation requires BOTH Faith AND SEEING Christ in Eucharist. Eucharist is the ultimate test of faith.
Catholics (and Orthodox) are the only Christians who both BELIEVE in the Lord AND LOOK on the Lord and WORSHIP Him in The Eucharist. This is TRUE and perfect WORSHIP and what is perfectly acceptable to God (ref. imagery of Cain and Abel for false worship). We also look onto the Son through our Catholic Charity in the Image of Christ reflected in the faces of those Christ most related too: the downtrodden, the poor, the sick, the orphan & the widow. But only in Eucharist can Christians look on the Son in a real sign of His presence in: Divinity, Body, Blood and Soul. Where do Protestants look at the Son in His Divinity so that they should have assurances of eternal life too? It is Impossible outside of full communion with Christ His Gift of the Catholic Church or outside of direct intervention of supernatural Divine Mercy and the good graces that flow through Christ’s Church.
Here is something else to observe - Peter tried to “blend in” with Jesus’ enemies while Christ was being interrogated and bullied (and denies Christ). Notice how the apostle John goes out of his way to link and contrast the denial of Christ to a recognition of Christ in the Eucharist by using the imagery a charcoal fire in each account?. This can’t be coincidental. In the first image (Jhn 18:25), Peter is trying to blend-in with Christ’s enemies and sharing their warm charcoal fire as if one of them. In the second image (John 21:9-13) the apostles are gathered together and brought into an awareness of Christ in the recognition of the presence of the bread. The linkage to Eucharist is popping up all over the NT - its a central and core teaching for Christians.
Peter’s Denial of Jesus
John 18:25 Meanwhile, as Simon Peter was standing by the [ref. John 18:18 - "charcoal fire"] warming himself, they asked him again, “You’re not one of his disciples, are you?” He denied it, saying, “No, I am not.”
…
Jesus Appears at the Sea of Galilee (after resurrection)
John 21:9 So when they got out on the land, they saw a charcoal fire already laid and fish placed on it, and bread.
…
John 21:12-13 Jesus said to them, “Come and have breakfast.” None of the disciples ventured to question Him, “Who are You?” knowing that it was the Lord. 13 Jesus came and took the bread and gave it to them, and the fish likewise.
…
Math 4:19 “… I will make you fishers of men”.*
James
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
First of all let me say that I see your point and empathize with your concerns. Thank-You.
Secondly let me say that I know many of my posts are long and I regret it. But with so many different Protestant “flavors” and the many misunderstandings about Catholic belief most have of us I usually have to give extra context or background to support my conclusions.
Now let me also say that I don’t generally like the approach of “offering up” poorly practising Catholics as a sacrificial offering just to find a common ground in the argument or gain a cheap congeniality in the discussion. Every soul that is lost is an eternal tragedy and in ethical principal I have a problem with using the damned souls as a mere social trading chip just for the sake of argument.
Lastly, I can see where you are uncomfortable with that one single statement about what is in their hearts. It is mostly an empathetic colloquialism - a direct appeal to conscience . I can admit that it might be taken by some to come right to the line of impropriety but I don’t believe it crosses that line. I did not judge to condemn but rather to empathize with a Christian conscience. Also, I do not believe that there is anything morally wrong with judging things with a motive to correct and teach. What is certainly morally wrong is judging to condemn. I did not do that in any way, shape or form.
Most everyone has taken the bible verses about judging others too literally and too fundamentally. Because of it most everyone now hides behind a sort of “see no evil, hear no evil” mentality to muzzle themselves from the moral responsibility to get the truth “out there”. But Christians are called to be “bold” – not to be pacifists. The truth never rolls over to error just to keep people in their comfort zones. No, Catholics are called to teach the full Catholic faith and that very oftentimes requires judging and discerning what other’s are thinking or what it is that blocks their acceptance of the full truth. Knocking down barriers to truth sometimes takes pushing at deep level to challenge one’s most closely held beliefs – even one’s very identity. Than can get emotional -but that is what gets people to grow in the truth and the faith.
It’s called “empathizing with our fellow man” and externalizing the moral conscience for those who want to interiorly silence it just to be “comfortable” (and we all tend to that behavior). The apostle Paul did this quite a bit - he had to get into the heart and soul of all the different peoples of different beliefs and cultures to teach them. Paul had to “1 Cor 9:22b become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some.” Thus, teaching and propagating the Apostolic Faith is all about empathizing with and elevating the conscience by finding and removing the errors which block the natural moral conscience". It can be just like “deprogramming” a person who has been culturally or sect brainwashed. There are a lot of people who have been brainwashed by the errors of the reformers that have propagated over the last 500 years.
James
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