Do Catholics depend on their works?

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I was a Protestant (in and out of church) for 50 years, and was received into the Catholic Church in 2013. I know the discussion all too well. I agree with all of you who have already said that, while we receive initial justification through grace alone, we do not receive final salvation through faith alone. (Verses in James previously quoted). We are called to cooperate with the grace of Christ to do good works which have been prepared for us to do. (Ephesians 2:10). The notion that all we need to do is say a prayer once in our life to guarantee our “ticket to heaven” is a perversion of the Gospel that became prevalent in much of the Protestant world and still can be found among many Protestants today.
 
What does the Church teach on works?
Necessary means: required to be done, achieved, or present; needed; essential.

The way I understand it this is a work you HAVE to do in order to attain salvation.
faith without works is dead; repenting is a work, so is loving and forgiving others. You can say you have faith until you turn blue, but if you do not repent, or forgive, or love, your faith is worthless.

It was a Jesus who said:
Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? . . . the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.”
 
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EPHESIANS 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Understand first that Paul was talking about the 600+ Mosaic Laws, not Christ’s commandments to love God and neighbor. Salvation is indeed a gift, but like any gift, it can be rejected, squandered and lost altogether. When we willfully break the 10 commandments we reject God. So yes, you have to keep the commandments if you expect to be saved. You cannot commit adultery, you x[cannot steal, lie, etc.
 
We are justified by faith apart from works, but works must follow. If we do works but have no faith, it merits us nothing. If we have faith but no works, our faith is dead and is therefore not a saving faith.
 
The part that gets me is the use of the word “depend”. What does the Church teach on works? Are Christians supposed to depend on Jesus AND their works for their salvation? I know the Church teaches that faith and works are required, but are we to trust in our works? Any help would be greatly appreciated, thanks!
For me it’s easier to understand good works as proof of the inner transformation Jesus asks of us. It is the work of the Holy Spirit which moves us, allows us, & empowers us to do good works.

Partaking in the sacramental life is not “works” anymore than eating & breathing. As eating & breathing feeds the body, the sacraments feed the soul.
 
How Catholics actually balance the two can be seen by getting to the root of the Greek word for “faith.” The Greek word often rendered “faith” is pistis. It actually doesn’t mean “faith” but faithfulness. “Faith” is a static word, whereas “faithfulness” is an action word.

It is interesting that at Luke 17.6 we often read English translations of Jesus’ words rendered as: “If you have faith [pistis] as small as a grain of mustard…” The word “small” does not occur in the Greek at all. The verse actually reads: “If you have faithfulness as a grain of mustard…”

What’s the difference? And how does this fit in with Catholicism and the “faith/works” debate?

In the land of Judah during the time of Jesus, there was a Jewish law that strictly forbid the planting of mustard grain as if it were just like any other plant. The reason was that mustard has the habit of overtaking other plants, chocking them for space in order to take their water and soil nutrients. A farmer might try to root out the mustard plant at first sight of it doing this, but by the time it was caught devouring one plant chances were that the mustard grain had sprouted and was now well rooted and doing this to many others, stifling the life out of them. Pull out what you think is the mustard plant in one area and you will find it growing in another. Mustard overtakes the territory of others and cannot be stopped.

Luke 17.6 is not saying to have a little bit of static faith or belief like a small grain of mustard. No, instead Jesus is here saying to be unyielding in one’s faithful actions as the mustard plant is. One cannot be static in faith or belief. One has to be moving forward in faith, constantly growing, impossible to stop or be uprooted.

This is the type of faith one finds in Catholicism: pistis. It is not a static faith, nor is it some formula where there are works done out of faith in Christ. All things are done with faith in Christ. But merely sitting around in faith, hoping things will move on their own is not the type of faith you will find in a Catholic: “If you have faithfulness as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be uprooted and planted in the sea,’ and it will obey you.”

Like mustard seeds that eventually uproot mulberry trees by growing and uprooting all that grows in their paths, Catholics have the faithfulness that moves them to grab the tree and uproot it with their own hands. Their works are done by the saving power of God.

Catholics do not believe that their personal works have any salvific merit in and of themselves, however. Their faithfulness is in Christ’s salvific power.
 
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why do catholics employ a double standard when quoting scripture?? Whenever a non-Catholic quotes scripture to refute what you believe, you say that it is not for our own private interpretation. then you turn around and quote the Bible to try to refute what we say. not only is it a double standard, it backs up my belief that catholics are hypocrites.
So where in that quote from Ephesians does it say “Faith alone?” Catholics don’t deny that faith is necessary. We deny that it alone is necessary.
" 2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.56 However, according to the Lord’s words "Thus you will know them by their fruits"57 - reflection on God’s blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.
A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: "Asked if she knew that she was in God’s grace, she replied: ‘If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.’“58”
Your cherry picking of the CCC and Bible to knock down strawman Catholic beliefs is disingenuous.
 
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What double standard? I took a quote from the Catechism that further explained the Catholic belief on how works and faith play together and asked you to show me where faith alone is in the Bible. So where is it? Where’s Faith Alone? You quoted Ephesians to disprove the role of works in our salvation and that it’s by faith alone, when the verse doesn’t even say that.
 
Search on ‘Catholic Answers: Focus’ podcasts and about a month or so Jimmy Akin did a great 3 part podcast interview on Faith and Works for salvation.
 
why do catholics employ a double standard when quoting scripture?? Whenever a non-Catholic quotes scripture to refute what you believe, you say that it is not for our own private interpretation. then you turn around and quote the Bible to try to refute what we say. not only is it a double standard, it backs up my belief that catholics are hypocrites.
My argument is that the Bible is derived from Catholic tradition & it must be interpreted through that tradition. A Catholic’s interpretation of scripture is not his own, but the interpretation of the Church. At least it should be.
Matt15:3 But he [Jesus] answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? 6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
I suppose it is the bolded section you wanted to bring into this conversation. Very well, what is it that you are saying is the commandments of men that Catholics teach?

It is the commandments of men that says “faith alone” or “sola scriptura” Paul’s letters are full of examples of his work for the Kingdom of God, he even goes on to say his suffering makes up what is lacking in Christ’s suffering, for your salvation.

So yes, the tradition the Pharisee adopted, give to the temple & you don’t have to care for your elderly parents, was against the commandments Moses handed to Israel.

But doing the work Jesus tells us to do is not.
  • Go make disciples
  • Do this in remembrance of me
  • Confess your sins to one another
  • Be merciful as your heavenly Father is merciful
  • What anyone has done for the least of these…
Those are his words
 
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I’m a protestant considering converting to Catholicism. I think that protestant in general misrepresent a lot of thing in regards to the Catholic Church. As I understand it, it’s not that Catholic believed that works merit salvation apart from God, more along the line that it is only through grace brought by faith does the fallen men can then do good works and in fact good works is the natural progression of faith as part of ‘sanctification’, and if a christian is not compelled to do good work he or she should question whether his or her faith is a mere intellectual faith or a transformative one talked about in the scriptures.

Which is basically what Luther was trying to say, in fact there is a joint declaration on the doctrines of justification between the Catholic Church and the Lutheran World Federation

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p..._31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html
 
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Whenever a non-Catholic quotes scripture to refute what you believe, you say that it is not for our own private interpretation. then you turn around and quote the Bible to try to refute what we say. not only is it a double standard, it backs up my belief that catholics are hypocrites.
In the desert the devil also quoted the Scriptures to Jesus. As for faith and works, the Bible specifically states that faith without works is dead. The works of the law that Paul is talking about are the 600+ Mosaic laws that the Pharisees meticulously kept.
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Sola Scriptura is a 16th century doctrine invented by an ex Catholic priest in Germany named Martin Luther; the Father of Protestantism. As for the Baptist church, that was founded by John Smyth in the late 16th century. So the problem is that people are putting their faith in the teachings of 16th century men, rather than in Jesus and the Church He founded to speak in His name…
 
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Ummmm the Church teaches initial salvation/justification (always get these confused lol) is by/through the grace of God Alone unto faith. So faith is a gift of Gods grace which precedes works that are salvific.

If you haven’t read the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification, you should. You appear to be arguing from ground zero.

I find the substance of our differences on justification, while substantial, to be peripheral to what is really causing the divide which is men desiring to interpret Scripture for themselves. The heart of the issue is a lack of faith in the institution of the Church.

We can swap verses and interpretation for a lifetime but ultimately you have a choice. You can take charge and take God’s word into your own hands (hope you can hold 2000 years of theological dialogue in your own head) or you can be submissive through faith in the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church which puts the product of 2000 years of theological dialogue in your hands.
 
I have a friend who was raised Protestant and “anti-Catholic”. Over the years we’ve talked often about the differences in our churches. I’ve corrected a lot of misinformation.

We’ve argued about faith vs. goods often. She reads Luke 23:39-43 very literally. Problem is she fails to appreciate the “works” of the redeemed criminal. He comes to Jesus’ defense, admits his crime and just punishment and acknowledges the divinity of Christ while begging for mercy.

It’s like a character in a movie you always thought was the bad guy until the last act when he sacrifices himself to save the innocent. Then he’s transformed from villain to hero.

Yes you con convert on your deathbed, but that conversion alone is not enough. After all demons recognize the divinity of God. That doesn’t get them permission to sit at His table.
 
There is a tendency in the protestant denominations to have a more “either/or” perspective while the Catholic Church has a more “both/and” perspective. Keep this in mind when learning about the way Catholics express their faith.

Also Catholics are in the process of being saved as we see our salvation as a work in progress. We haven’t said our final “yes” to God because we are not at the moment of our death yet. We were saved on the cross 2000 years ago, are being saved now when we say “yes” to God and hope to be saved the moment we die if we continue to say “yes” to God.

Studying Philosophy is important and priests have about 2 years of Philosophy and some 3-4 years of Theology studies. Faith and reason and work and most important God´s grace go together. This is a short introduction to the Catholic perspective which I think will help you understand “how Catholics reason”.

One of the things that I appreciated most about the Catholic Church, when I was about to be received into full communion with the Catholic Church and still do, is that it has a living tradition going back to the documents written by those who knew the apostles and forward until present day.
 
which came first faith or works? faith
we are justified before God by faith. we are justified before men by our works.
I think the problem is that you are confusing what “faith in Jesus Christ” means. Faith is not about merely believing a certain set of theological facts, but rather, it is about doing what Jesus wants from us:

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven” Matt. 7:21

Question for IamBaptist:


If a man has faith in Jesus and believes that Jesus is the Son of God, but the man does not repent of his sins, and he has hatred in his heart and does not love or forgive his neighbor, does that faith save him”?

The Catholic position is that repentance, forgiving others and loving neighbor are all works, and without those works, Faith is dead and useless…

“If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth.” 1 John 1:6
 
It’s not that, I always took as ok so you believe, prove it. What have we done to show to Jesus that we believe. Words are cheap and actions speak louder etc.
 
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