Do Catholics despise Anglicans?

[kentuckyliz]

North, if you want to see why my reply had energy in it, the present family situation is described in the Kissling thread if you want to go looking for it.

It’s just so sad. We grew up Catholic, never knew there was a difference among Christians, my parents grew up poor and hungry and humble when they were young, and they loved English things but never made it an idol and a cause for snobbery and a superior sneering attitude. We practiced charity towards the poor and served them face to face.

It is so sad to see my siblings become anglophile sneering snobs who have contempt for poor and working class people and ethnic people. They’ve changed their kids’ schools (the sib in the city who has some schools to choose from) because this school had too many nonwhite kids, that one had too many Catholics, that one was too working class, etc. But they aren’t quite as rich as their church friends to send the kids to the more-expensive-than-college prep school for the privileged rich. They honestly think they are better than other people. How did this happen? It didn’t used to be that way. They even make remarks at me and never used to. They seem to be blind to it, because they live in a very liberal city and read the papers and parrot the PC party line. But then their actions and unguarded opinions are just so different!

I never say a thing, no debates, no arguments, I even go to their church with them (but cannot receive communion and still have to seek out a Mass), and I mingle with others and am gracious. I don’t break out rosary beads or anything distinctly Catholic around them and their families. I wake up early or stay up late to pray. I take great pains to not to offend or even show too much religious fervor or emotion; “let’s not get carried away.”

And this isn’t even the current family dilemma that has a direct connection to ECUSA moral bankruptcy and leads me to say whitewashed sepulchres. No rubrics righteousness can justify it. See the Kissling thread.

 

[GKC]

Absolutely correct! It was a parody of her response and use of hyperbole to bash Anglicans out of “love”.

You are astute Are you an Episcopalian

No, sir. I am not. Nor in communion with Canterbury. That is, a schismatic schismatic. My opinion of the current state of Anglicanism in the developed world would look a little unbalanced, I fear.

GKC

posterus traditus Anglicanus

 

[RevDrNorth]

North, if you want to see why my reply had energy in it, the present family situation is described in the Kissling thread if you want to go looking for it.

It’s just so sad. We grew up Catholic, never knew there was a difference among Christians, my parents grew up poor and hungry and humble when they were young, and they loved English things but never made it an idol and a cause for snobbery and a superior sneering attitude. We practiced charity towards the poor and served them face to face.

It is so sad to see my siblings become anglophile sneering snobs who have contempt for poor and working class people and ethnic people. They’ve changed their kids’ schools (the sib in the city who has some schools to choose from) because this school had too many nonwhite kids, that one had too many Catholics, that one was too working class, etc. But they aren’t quite as rich as their church friends to send the kids to the more-expensive-than-college prep school for the privileged rich. They honestly think they are better than other people. .

Liz,

I am sorry that has happened to you. Regardless of anyone’s socio economic status and so on they are all children of God and as you know He judges the heart not to bank balance. I realize that Dr. Schori’s comments about Catholics probably fit into your stereotype of Anglicans (though she apparently did not mean them to sound the way they came across).

Yes…in general Episcopalians are better educated and more affluent than Catholics. This does not mean much to God. To those who have been given much…much is required and we will all have to answer for the way we have used our talents and gifts.

I have a friend (older and in her 60’s) who used to be Baptist. When she grew up she became Episcopalian. She loves the church but part of the reason is that it represents the opposite end of the scale on which she grew up in poverty.

I pray there will be healing in your family.

{Ps As I explained on the Vocations thread…I am not an Episcopal Priest. I grew up Anglican but have since been ordained in another mainline denomination. I love liturgy, and am obviously very favorably disposed towards Catholicism}.

North

 

[GKC]

North, if you want to see why my reply had energy in it, the present family situation is described in the Kissling thread if you want to go looking for it.

It’s just so sad. We grew up Catholic, never knew there was a difference among Christians, my parents grew up poor and hungry and humble when they were young, and they loved English things but never made it an idol and a cause for snobbery and a superior sneering attitude. We practiced charity towards the poor and served them face to face.

It is so sad to see my siblings become anglophile sneering snobs who have contempt for poor and working class people and ethnic people. They’ve changed their kids’ schools (the sib in the city who has some schools to choose from) because this school had too many nonwhite kids, that one had too many Catholics, that one was too working class, etc. But they aren’t quite as rich as their church friends to send the kids to the more-expensive-than-college prep school for the privileged rich. They honestly think they are better than other people. How did this happen? It didn’t used to be that way. They even make remarks at me and never used to. They seem to be blind to it, because they live in a very liberal city and read the papers and parrot the PC party line. But then their actions and unguarded opinions are just so different!

I never say a thing, no debates, no arguments, I even go to their church with them (but cannot receive communion and still have to seek out a Mass), and I mingle with others and am gracious. I don’t break out rosary beads or anything distinctly Catholic around them and their families. I wake up early or stay up late to pray. I take great pains to not to offend or even show too much religious fervor or emotion; “let’s not get carried away.”

And this isn’t even the current family dilemma that has a direct connection to ECUSA moral bankruptcy and leads me to say whitewashed sepulchres. No rubrics righteousness can justify it. See the Kissling thread.

Liz,

Where may the Kissling thread be found?

GKC

 

[catholicmarsh]

I am an ex-Anglican, and I still love that communion, although I confess to being saddened by it–a communion that includes many members of my family, by the way.

Before I had even consciously considered “poping” my children attended a Catholic school. When I told the diminutive and venerable nun who was the director of religious education at the school that we were Episcopalians, she replied very graciously, “Lovely! Our nearest relatives!”

I haven’t witnessed any antagonism toward Anglicans in the ten years I have been a Catholic, and I honestly believe I would recognize it, if it were truly a problem.

I am a former Anglican as well, and I often say that the Anglican Communion left me I didn’t leave it. I still LOVE and use my Book of Common Prayer in my personal devotion as well as the Augustinian Prayer book (from 1929) It is one of the only places that I can find litanies, invocations, and pslams, and hymns all in one place. The particular Anglo-Catholic church I went to was where I learned to love the Rosary and learned to love Thomism, it was a wonderful stepping stone to coming home.
One problem I have with the AC is it is drawn along National boundaries (England) and Jesus didn’t set up a national Church, he called all people to himself. There is an Anglican Use Parish that is in one of the neighboring Diocese to me that uses a modified form of Rite 1 from the Book of Common Prayer, they use what is called the Book of Divine Worship that is essentially the Book of Common Prayer but with the Protestant/Anti Catholic references removed (namely the 39 articles of faith.) The Anglican Use for those of you who are not familiar with it is a dispensation given by the Holy Father in 1980 to former Episcopal Congregations/Priests who converted to Catholicism but desired to retain their Anglican heritage by adapting the Angican Liturgy into the Latin Rite. These former Episcopal Priests are given a dispensation if they are married and have families and may retain their previous congregation if the Congregation decides to convert along with the Priest.

 

[catholicmarsh]

BTW UDOC, if you are familiar with the book of Divine Worship do you know where I can purchase one?

 

[lak611]

There is an Anglican Use Parish that is in one of the neighboring Diocese to me that uses a modified form of Rite 1 from the Book of Common Prayer, they use what is called the Book of Divine Worship that is essentially the Book of Common Prayer but with the Protestant/Anti Catholic references removed (namely the 39 articles of faith.) The Anglican Use for those of you who are not familiar with it is a dispensation given by the Holy Father in 1980 to former Episcopal Congregations/Priests who converted to Catholicism but desired to retain their Anglican heritage by adapting the Angican Liturgy into the Latin Rite. These former Episcopal Priests are given a dispensation if they are married and have families and may retain their previous congregation if the Congregation decides to convert along with the Priest.

I would like to go to Mass at an Anglican-Use parish. Unfortunately, there are none where I live.

 

[catholicmarsh]

I would like to go to Mass at an Anglican-Use parish. Unfortunately, there are none where I live.

Lak I have never actually been to an Anglican Use Parish I have simply read about them. There is one but it is kind of far (considering I dont have a car) and the bus doesnt go there. Anyway I have thought about calling the Church and asking if there is anyone in my area who attends who wouldn't mind giving me a ride once in a while. I don't think I would make it an Every-Sunday thing as I am tied to my Parish but to visit maybe once a month would be nice, just to stay connected with the beauty of the Anglican Rite. I take it you are a former Anglican as well. (BTW when I was Anglican that's what I refered to myself as, Anglican, not Episcopalian.) Episcopalian represented values that I wasn't about, namely Pro-Choice, Pro-Homosexual marriage, etc. The Episcopal Church is dying because they have opened the door to so many things. When you have Bishops that deny the first line of the Creed it is not going to be long before your Church dwindles to nothing. Its sad but true.

 

[GKC]

I would like to go to Mass at an Anglican-Use parish. Unfortunately, there are none where I live.

\

Unless you live in Texas, you’ll have a hard time finding one. There was once an Anglican Use parish in my home town, formed by orthodox Anglicans who left ECUSA in the late 70s. A portion of them formed the Traditional Anglican parish that I attend, ohers went the AU route. We’re sort of sister parishes. But they became NO, a few years ago, as do most AU parishes, eventually. And they are now the local indult TLM parish. I have attended there, but the church is so small I felt guilty taking a seat, and didn’t go back.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus

 

[lak611]

Lak I have never actually been to an Anglican Use Parish I have simply read about them. There is one but it is kind of far (considering I dont have a car) and the bus doesnt go there. Anyway I have thought about calling the Church and asking if there is anyone in my area who attends who wouldn’t mind giving me a ride once in a while. I don’t think I would make it an Every-Sunday thing as I am tied to my Parish but to visit maybe once a month would be nice, just to stay connected with the beauty of the Anglican Rite. I take it you are a former Anglican as well. (BTW when I was Anglican that’s what I refered to myself as, Anglican, not Episcopalian.) Episcopalian represented values that I wasn’t about, namely Pro-Choice, Pro-Homosexual marriage, etc. The Episcopal Church is dying because they have opened the door to so many things. When you have Bishops that deny the first line of the Creed it is not going to be long before your Church dwindles to nothing. Its sad but true.

Actually, I have always been a Catholic, but I like going to different kinds of Masses from time to time. I have been to Byzantine Rite Divine Liturgy and TLM. I will probably try Melkite and Maronite Rite, since there are parishes in my area that are those Rites. I have heard that Anglican-Use is similar to TLM, only in English instead of Latin. I also happen to love history, so I like to experience all the different types of Masses that we Catholics have.

 

[mercygate]

BTW UDOC, if you are familiar with the book of Divine Worship do you know where I can purchase one?

Our Lady of the Atonement Church in Texas sells it. They have a web site. I’ll bet you can get it through Barnes & Noble on line.

 

[catholicmarsh]

\

Unless you live in Texas, you’ll have a hard time finding one. There was once an Anglican Use parish in my home town, formed by orthodox Anglicans who left ECUSA in the late 70s. A portion of them formed the Traditional Anglican parish that I attend, ohers went the AU route. We’re sort of sister parishes. But they became NO, a few years ago, as do most AU parishes, eventually. And they are now the local indult TLM parish. I have attended there, but the church is so small I felt guilty taking a seat, and didn’t go back.

 I do live in Texas but St. Mary's in Arlington is hard to get to seeing as I don't drive and there is no bus. But I may call the Church and see if someone can come  and get me.

 

[GKC]

\

Unless you live in Texas, you’ll have a hard time finding one. There was once an Anglican Use parish in my home town, formed by orthodox Anglicans who left ECUSA in the late 70s. A portion of them formed the Traditional Anglican parish that I attend, ohers went the AU route. We’re sort of sister parishes. But they became NO, a few years ago, as do most AU parishes, eventually. And they are now the local indult TLM parish. I have attended there, but the church is so small I felt guilty taking a seat, and didn’t go back.

 I do live in Texas but St. Mary's in Arlington is hard to get to seeing as I don't drive and there is no bus. But I may call the Church and see if someone can come  and get me.

Hope you make it. I think Rite I was a poor choice, they should used the 1928 book, with a few changes. But if you see the Book of Divine Worship, the frontispiece was done by a friend of mine. Who is, incidentally, an expert on *Apostolica Curae *

GKC

 

[catholicmarsh]

catholicmarsh;2375061:

Hope you make it. I think Rite I was a poor choice, they should used the 1928 book, with a few changes. But if you see the Book of Divine Worship, the frontispiece was done by a friend of mine. Who is, incidentally, an expert on *Apostolica Curae *

GKC

I would like to find an inexpensive copy of the BDW, do you know where I can order it fairly cheap?

 

[GKC]

GKC;2375306:

I would like to find an inexpensive copy of the BDW, do you know where I can order it fairly cheap?

Other than from OL of Atonement, no. I’d like to find one myself.

GKC

 

[kentuckyliz]

Forgive me but your reply lacks charity.

I’d just like to clarify that I agree with North calling me out…my painkillers were wearing off and I had to wait for my next dose and I was feeling very cranky…later the same night I reported three of my own posts and asked the moderators to edit or delete them because I was repenting of uncharity and overstating the case.

Really, I grieve the split; the RC’s could use help with the liturgy and the CofE/ECUSA could use the help with moral theology. We’re both losing out.

Perhaps all these denominational splits make all of us less complete, perfect, and beautiful than the Lord Jesus intended for us in his prayer of John 17, and how he gave himself in sacrifice to lift up and wash the Bride to be beautiful (liturgy) and spotless (moral theology) in Eph 5.

Thanks for the fraternal correction. :grouphug:

 

[GKC]

IMO, you’re right about the RCC and the Anglicans. But Anglicans are far worse off.

I am still looking for the thread you mentioned.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus

 

[lizaanne]

Anglicans are not in full communion with Rome. Therefore they are just as Protestant as Methodists, Baptists, Evangelicals etc.

You can’t be “almost” Catholic. Either you are or you aren’t. Period.

“Despise” is an emotional response. Truth does not require an emotional response, it just is what it is.

~Liza

 

[salvereginadude]

I don’t dislike them. I used to be one! But, I just think that if they want to worship with the trappings of Catholicism they should go all the way, and not just be content to “look” Catholic. On the same token, to be really Catholic one must adhere to the traditional doctrines of the Church and not succomb to every new cultural innovation that seems to be the norm.

 

[David_Zampino]

There is a gentleman who frequently posts here who knows the CEC situation intimately. And personally.

Perhaps he might comment.

GKC

I am a former CEC clergyman and canon theologian. I “swam the Tiber” almost 2 1/2 years ago, after my former “bishop” announced publically that he was going to “drive all the closet papists out of his diocese” and other similarly kind and charitable remarks.

I was one of a few individuals who did research on the original claims of Apostolic Succession of the CEC, and came to the conclusion that – at best and most generous – they were fatally flawed. I have also appeared on “The Journey Home”.

The connection with ICAB and Brazil came about in 1997, when three bishops from Brazil traveled to the United States to consecrate 5 CEC bishops. The agreement was that from that point forward all CEC ordinations would use the proper Roman Rites. At that point, the CEC was, as a communion, moving in a Catholic direction. Many CEC bishops, however, did not adhere to the agreement, and the relationship between the two bodies terminated.

In 2006, the CEC largely self-destructed. 8 bishops, dozens/hundreds of clery, and tens of thousands of laity left. The remnants of the CEC are solidly Protestant and have no interest in things Catholic. Only one of the five CEC bishops consecrated by Brazil remain in the CEC – the leader, Randy Adler. The other four bishops, Randy Sly, Philip Zampino, Richard Lipka, and Fred Fick have all left the CEC. Randy Sly has become a Catholic layman.

I am aware of several former CEC clergy who have, or are in the process of petitioning Rome in a manner similar to – but NOT identical with – the Pastoral Provision available for Anglicans. One major reason that former CEC clergy are being examined differently does have to do with Apostolic Succession. Apostolicae Curae does not specifically apply to many former members of the CEC. Some CEC clergy – many, in fact, would be considered definitely “invalid” by any sense of the word. However, in other cases, there is potential – and in some cases – probable presumption of validity. Rome is having to take each petition on a case by case basis.

I do agree that fidelity to the Magesterium is more important than Apostolic Succession, but in certain cases where the Succession is “valid but illicit” or “valid but irregular”, the Succession does have to be carefully considered.