Do Catholics Kiss the Pope's ring?

[Robert_in_SD]

Robert I’m not imposing 21st century thought into this.

Yes, you are.

NDfan:

I’m speaking strictly from a theological perspective. I understand fully what the practices and customs may have been at that time. But the fact remains these types of practices didn’t creep into the church until the Pope was officially given the same title the emperor of Rome used. In that regard it makes sense that folks may have done it.

You’re falsely ascribing a theological meaning to an ancient token of respect. Your position is absurd.

NDfan:

What I’m saying is if we read scripture we never find anyone who was a leader in the church accept any type of salutation that involved bowing or kissing because that person was submitting to the others authority.

What about greeting with a chaste kiss?.. Kissing the knuckle is pretty darn chaste.

NDfan:

This would include the Angels. They simply did not stand for it as the only person who deserves that type of greeting is Christ and GOD.

That was not true in ancient times. People kissed rings and bowed to authority of all kinds, even pious jews. The theological confusion you seem to have is in your assumption that any token of respect or acknowledgement of authority - temporal or otherwise - equates with adoration. It simply does not.

NDfan:

We see Jesus HIMSELF accepting these gestures but not his disciples. I don’t have a problem with saying that accepted standards of greetings would be used in the church. We read of the Christian kiss all the time. We offer one another a sign of peace which mostly today is a handshake unless it’s family in which case I kiss my wife and daughter.

People touched the hem of Peter’s cloak for healing, etc. There were pious signs of respect even in the earliest Church. The fact that ring kissing evolved in Western culture as a token of respect for one’s office has nothing to do with Catholic theological notions regarding the divinity of the pope. The pope is a man who holds a great and responsible office in the Church. That position commands our respect. It is not adoration to kiss a ring out of respect.

NDfan:

But I personally have a problem with kissing a man’s hand because it has a ring that represents some authority he was given by the Roman Emperor 1500 years ago.

The ring is a fisherman’s ring. To Catholics, it represents the authority that Christ gave to the Church about 2,000 years ago. But, if I saw it your way, I suppose I would have the same reservations.

NDfan:

I don’t kiss the popes ring because I don’t submit to his personal authority. I submit to the authority of the church in which Christ alone is our leader.

So, can I assume that if you ever came to see the Catholic Church as the Church founded by Jesus Christ you would have no problem kissing the pope’s ring? Or is it just the whole concept of ring-kissing that gives you the heebie jeebies?

Peace,
-Robert

 

[Bill_Pick]

Yes, you are.

You’re falsely ascribing a theological meaning to an ancient token of respect. Your position is absurd.

What about greeting with a chaste kiss?.. Kissing the knuckle is pretty darn chaste.

That was not true in ancient times. People kissed rings and bowed to authority of all kinds, even pious jews. The theological confusion you seem to have is in your assumption that any token of respect or acknowledgement of authority - temporal or otherwise - equates with adoration. It simply does not.

People touched the hem of Peter’s cloak for healing, etc. There were pious signs of respect even in the earliest Church. The fact that ring kissing evolved in Western culture as a token of respect for one’s office has nothing to do with Catholic theological notions regarding the divinity of the pope. The pope is a man who holds a great and responsible office in the Church. That position commands our respect. It is not adoration to kiss a ring out of respect.

The ring is a fisherman’s ring. To Catholics, it represents the authority that Christ gave to the Church about 2,000 years ago. But, if I saw it your way, I suppose I would have the same reservations.

So, can I assume that if you ever came to see the Catholic Church as the Church founded by Jesus Christ you would have no problem kissing the pope’s ring? Or is it just the whole concept of ring-kissing that gives you the heebie jeebies?

Peace,
-Robert

What in hill is going on with kissing some one ring or we just looking for a way to start arguring

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I am sorry, saw this in a thread, what is this about? Is this a requirement? Is this true?

Could you please provide church father references to this act?

Thanks guys!

It’s post-Patristic. Most things the CC does do not have, & do not need, Biblical support - because a lot of what it does is of Church origin:it’s quite clear about this, & does not feelany need to provide support from revelation in any form for things that fall within that category. Papal etiquette is as much as little in need of a Biblical basis as is the inauguration of a President, or the awarding of an academic degree, or comparable social actions. It’s a mistake to imagine that because the CC is a religious body & full of theology, it therefore regards everything it does as a subject for theology or doctrine or piety. It doesn’t. This is not a weakness - merely a fact.​

Hope that clears matters up.

 

[Seeking12]

I am sorry, saw this in a thread, what is this about? Is this a requirement? Is this true?

Could you please provide church father references to this act?

Thanks guys!

**Romans 1:24-25 "Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. **

 

[ricko]

**Romans 1:24-25 "Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. **

Verse picking? Out of context as the verse you picked has no bearing on the subject.

 

[LilyM]

**Romans 1:24-25 "Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. **

’

Of course serving others is a necessary part of the Christian ethos - as Jesus said ‘whoever would be greatest of all must be last of all and servant of all’. So there is nothing wrong with serving people per se.

As for kissing -

Romans 16.16a — “Greet one another with a holy kiss”
I Corinthians 16.20b — “Greet one another with a holy kiss”
II Corinthians 13.12a — “Greet one another with a holy kiss”
I Thessalonians 5.26 — “Greet all the brothers with a holy kiss”
I Peter 5.14a — “Greet one another with a** kiss **of love”

Scripture doesn’t say that kissing, for example, the cheek, is fine but kissing the ring or any other part of the body (as long as it is a kiss of love rather than sinful lust) is not.

By the way, Peter didn’t object to bowing per se - there are many examples from the OT such as Jacob bowing not once but seven times before Esau his brother, so Peter couldn’t possibly have objected to bowing merely as a sign of respect, since scripture endorsed it.

What he objected to was bowing done with a worshipful intent - there’s all the difference in the world between the two types of bowing. If I knew that someone bowing before me was worshipping me as divine, of course I’d object, If I held by the grace of God some special office as king or queen, president or Pope, and people bowed before me in respect for my God-given office then there is no problem.

 

[Seeking12]

Verse picking? Out of context as the verse you picked has no bearing on the subject.

**Maybe and maybe not - depends on the intent of the persons heart. Isn’t He called the Vicar of Christ? if someone went before the Pope and say “Hey Benedict how are you doing”? Would that statement be considered disrespectful? Why or why not?

The Christian Church prior to Constantine reserved the titles, Vicar of Christ and Vicar of the Lord exclusively for the Holy Spirit, whom Jesus sent to His Apostles to complete their training (John 16:12-15).

Tertullian demonstrates this fact in the following quotes:
“ Grant, then, that all have erred; that the apostle was mistaken in giving his testimony; that the Holy Ghost … He, the Steward of God, the Vicar of Christ … ”
“ For what kind of (supposition) is it, that, while the devil is always operating and adding daily to the ingenuities of iniquity, the work of God should either have ceased, or else have desisted from advancing? whereas the reason why the Lord sent the Paraclete was, that, since human mediocrity was unable to take in all things at once, discipline should, little by little, be directed, and ordained, and carried on to perfection, by that Vicar of the Lord, the Holy Spirit.

The title Vicar of Christ came into use in the fifth and sixth centuries. The Christian Church prior to Constantine reserved the titles, Vicar of Christ and Vicar of the Lord exclusively for the Holy Spirit, whom Jesus sent to His Apostles to complete their training (John 16:12-15).

The title Vicar of Christ is more expressive of his supreme headship of the Catholic Church on earth, which people believe he bears by virtue of the commission of Christ and with vicarial power derived from Him. Thus, Pope Innocent III removed bishops by appealing to his power as Vicar of Christ. He declared that Christ had given such power only to His vicar.

You see the Church usurped the Holy Spirit as Vicar of Christ from the teaching of the EFC’s. Why? I don’t know.**

 

[Sam_777]

I respect your office and I submit to your authority.

This tradition went back to the days when Kings first started wearing rings… The ring usually had a crest or national symbol on it…

Can someone kiss the cross that the Pope is wearing instead of his ring?

 

[w_stewart]

**Maybe and maybe not - depends on the intent of the persons heart. Isn’t He called the Vicar of Christ? if someone went before the Pope and say “Hey Benedict how are you doing”? Would that statement be considered disrespectful? Why or why not?

The Christian Church prior to Constantine reserved the titles, Vicar of Christ and Vicar of the Lord exclusively for the Holy Spirit, whom Jesus sent to His Apostles to complete their training (John 16:12-15).

Tertullian demonstrates this fact in the following quotes:
“ Grant, then, that all have erred; that the apostle was mistaken in giving his testimony; that the Holy Ghost … He, the Steward of God, the Vicar of Christ … ”
“ For what kind of (supposition) is it, that, while the devil is always operating and adding daily to the ingenuities of iniquity, the work of God should either have ceased, or else have desisted from advancing? whereas the reason why the Lord sent the Paraclete was, that, since human mediocrity was unable to take in all things at once, discipline should, little by little, be directed, and ordained, and carried on to perfection, by that Vicar of the Lord, the Holy Spirit.

The title Vicar of Christ came into use in the fifth and sixth centuries. The Christian Church prior to Constantine reserved the titles, Vicar of Christ and Vicar of the Lord exclusively for the Holy Spirit, whom Jesus sent to His Apostles to complete their training (John 16:12-15).

The title Vicar of Christ is more expressive of his supreme headship of the Catholic Church on earth, which people believe he bears by virtue of the commission of Christ and with vicarial power derived from Him. Thus, Pope Innocent III removed bishops by appealing to his power as Vicar of Christ. He declared that Christ had given such power only to His vicar.

You see the Church usurped the Holy Spirit as Vicar of Christ from the teaching of the EFC’s. Why? I don’t know.**

Questions:

1. Is it not that Vicar of Christ means representative/substitute and therefore subordinate of Christ?
2. When the title Vicar of Christ is applied to the Holy Spirit, is it not that the necessary implication is that the Holy Spirit is subordinate/representative/substitute of Christ?
3. Or do you know any other definition of Vicar other than the obvious (representative/subordinate)?

 

[Stephen_C]

Well, yes….if they are Catholic. That is what Catholic’s do you know (bow down and worship everthing in sight) Now if they are not Catholic, then no it is not worship. Only Catholic’s can do these things (bowing causing auto worship) It seems that by default when a Catholic bows down, what is before them is being worshiped by that Catholic. We just don’t know better. Go figure……

That it why it so great to have our non-Catholic brothers and sisters remind us that is what we are doing…would not have known that if it was not for these kindly folks. like when I bow down at night before my bed I thought to pray to Jesus giving him thanks for this day and hope for another if that is his will. I did not have a clue as to that was not what I was doing, but instead I was worshiping my bed. (non-Catholics can do this with out causing the bed worship thing) All I can say is thanks for pointing this out to me. So hopefully they will let know how they can bow down before something and not be worpshipping what is before them…like we Catholic (only) seem to do…

I had posted this in another tread but it also applies here as well…same theme. This kinda stuff just get’s old. Mind you I did not come back home until after Pope John Paul had gone off to Heaven. But I am quite sure there were folks out there accusing him of worshiping the earth. Since he had a habit of kissing the ground whenever he landed to tend to the flock across the globe……

 

[Rose_Maniple]

It’s actually tradition to kiss any diocesan Bishop’s ring when greeting him in his diocese, not just the Pope.

Indeed, and I do: I think my own bishop rolls his eyes when he sees me coming.

 

[chris_molter]

Indeed, and I do: I think my own bishop rolls his eyes when he sees me coming.

You think that’s bad, you should have seen my Episcopalian Bishop’s face when I did it way back when! (before I was Catholic)

 

[Bill_Pick]

You think that’s bad, you should have seen my Episcopalian Bishop’s face when I did it way back when! (before I was Catholic)

It is a custom in that part of the world,Geo Bush kiss his ring,Billy Gramham has kiss the ring its to show respect and nothing more