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edwest2
Guest
There is a Communion of Saints that are in relationship with God and each other.
Peace,
Ed
Peace,
Ed
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T
TimothyH
Guest
You are not using all the tools in your toolbox if you are not praying to the saints.
There are saints who understand particular struggles such as Augustine who struggled with a loose lifestyle and sexual addiction or St. Joseph who understands what it means to sacrifice for the good of a family. Others have struggled against pride, lust, greed, struggled through poverty, sickness and persecution. Each is a powerful intercessor, able to understand our particular struggle. Those who don’t pray to the saints are missing out.
Saying that one does not have to pray to the saints is like saying that one does not have to use a socket wrench set to fix a car - while technically true, it goes a lot quicker and smoother if you do.
-Tim-
There are saints who understand particular struggles such as Augustine who struggled with a loose lifestyle and sexual addiction or St. Joseph who understands what it means to sacrifice for the good of a family. Others have struggled against pride, lust, greed, struggled through poverty, sickness and persecution. Each is a powerful intercessor, able to understand our particular struggle. Those who don’t pray to the saints are missing out.
Saying that one does not have to pray to the saints is like saying that one does not have to use a socket wrench set to fix a car - while technically true, it goes a lot quicker and smoother if you do.
-Tim-
M
Markie_Boy
Guest
It just seems that when people start to pray to Saints it is really easy to drift over and start addressing them with requests like they are God.
To me it would take extra focus and careful prayer to not do so. I just prefer to stay in safe waters and focus on God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.
To me it would take extra focus and careful prayer to not do so. I just prefer to stay in safe waters and focus on God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.
M
Markie_Boy
Guest
Also - is it fair to say that focusing on Saints is not “essential” to one’s salvation?
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1ke
Guest
Except that in 2000 years of extensive intercession of the Saints in the liturgy and life of the Church, that hasn’t happened. So it must not be so easy.
Not at all. I don’t think any of my friends are God when I ask them to pray for me, neither my friends here or my friends in Heaven. I think what you have to do is stop thinking of the Saints as somehow different than any other person. Catholics think of them as people, because…well… they are people.
Do you ask others to pray for you? Then you have already abandoned your safe waters. What I would encourage you to do is to continue to work on your idea of who the Saints are. Seems you have cast them as something other than people who have, as St Paul says, run the race. They are us, just in Heaven. They are part of the Bod of Christ, not only ready and willing to bring our prayers to the altar of God, but actually given that honor in Heaven as we can see from Revelation 8:3.
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1ke
Guest
I would say no, the Communion of Saints is somehow essential or God would not have created it for us to draw on, Paul would not have urged intercessory prayer, and Christ would not have established a visible community in the Church.
As people, we are all interconnected. We help bring each other to Christ and to salvation-- so it essential to you as both a person doing the bringing and being brought by others-- our opportunities to grow in holiness are intertwined with others. We are not an island. It is not “me and God”. The body of Christ is an “us” that includes the Church Suffering, Church Militant, and Church Triumphant.
Can you simply not access the treasury of the Saints? Yes. Sadly.
J
JRKH
Guest
Which of course the Church is very careful to teach against. That is - to not ascribe to saints that which belongs to God.
Of course we cannot account for what an individual might do.
I think you are wise in recognizing this potential in yourself and not trying to “push it”. In time, it might become easier for you - - or not.
Yes that is fair to say.
But I think it also fair to say that ignoring Saints - ignoring your brothers and sisters in Christ - their good example and their desire to be of help to us - is not a good idea.
It’s more a matter of striking the proper balance.
Peace
James
J
JRKH
Guest
Well said - You put it a bit more forcefully than I did.
We are, by virtue of our faith and baptism, members of a communion and that fellowship does not cease with bodily death. We are part of a fellowship because Jesus wants it that way and we should not ignore or discount any part of it.
But that said - - I think we need to recognize that some folks, coming from different backgrounds and history, can take more time than others to come to appreciate the great advantage we have in the Church triumphant.
Peace
James
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TimothyH
Guest
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Randy_Carson
Guest
We agree.
So, no need to ask God to pass along a message to your grandmother. The saints in heaven can hear us just fine.
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Do you ever ask any of your friends at Church to pray for you?
Maybe someone in your family?
What’s the difference?
(Aside from the fact that the saints in heaven are righteous and never grow weary unlike those of us who are still on this earth.)
Z
zz912
Guest
There are two examples in Revelation where the saints are taking our prayers and presentingtthem to GGod on our behalf.
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Della
Guest
You think this way because you don’t pray to saints/ask their intercession.
I used to think that my asking a saint to pray for me would take something away from my relationship with Jesus. It did just the opposite. The Saints want nothing more than to lead us closer to their Lord and ours. They long for us to ask for their prayers. St. Therese of the Child Jesus and the Holy Face (her name she took in her religious order) said that she would do more good in heaven than on earth. Why? Because she would then be free of the restrictions of time and space. The Holy Spirit’s power would be more free to work through her prayers because she would be perfected in God’s love in heaven and could no longer have any self interest in her intercessions for others. She longed to be free to help millions of people instead of the very few she could aid in her physical body. It is God who gives the Saints in heaven their ability to hear our prayers and aid us by interceding for us. Sure we think of the Saint when we ask for his/her prayers, but it is God who we are desiring to answer our prayers.You need to “go out deeper” so you can haul in a greater catch of fish. God gave us the communion of saints for our benefit, not for his. He wants us all to be united in his love, those in heaven and those still on earth. We are bonded in his love. It’s all about him. It all begins in him and ends in him, not in ourselves.
And yes, we can ignore the Saints, but we do so to our own cost, not theirs or God’s. It’s like being handed a million dollars and saying, “I don’t need it. I’ll just keep on paying my debts as best I can.” Why not take advantage of all that God has given us to aid us in our salvation? The communion of saints is God’s gift to us. Rejecting it would be rather churlish if done from a mere dislike of the idea, rather than a real concern for God’s honor.
I know you are thinking that praying to saints somehow takes away from the glory that belongs to God alone, but it does just the opposite. Why? Because when we ask those who have triumphed over sin to pray for us we are saying that God brought them to their state of holiness, and he can do the same for us. It’s part of the virtue of hope and faith, as well as charity to ask for the intercession of the saints.
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