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Usagi
Guest
If it helps any, I will frequently address a prayer to God, but at the end ask various folks in Heaven (both the big-name saints and loved ones I have reason to believe are there) to join their prayers to mine. That way of constructing things might help if you are sensitive about directing the prayer to anyone but God.
I’m technically still constructing little mini-prayers to my “recruited” saints and adding them to my prayer to God, but since non-Catholics often think of us as praying to saints INSTEAD of “going directly to God,” my method should at least help to allay that concern.
Even when there is a pre-written prayer directed at a saint personally (the most common and well-known being the Hail Mary), the request is usually that the saint pray for us, not take some action as though we are “getting around God” by asking someone else. There are a few established prayers that do ask a saint to take action, of course, like the aforementioned prayer to St. Michael and the children’s rhyming prayer to St. Anthony to help find a lost object. Even then, as earlier posters have pointed out, we do not believe the saint is acting independently of God or doing anything other than God’s will. In the case of St. Michael, there is plenty of Biblical basis for the idea of God sending angels out to actually do things, so that shouldn’t really be an issue. With human saints, we don’t see a lot of that in Scripture – possibly to avoid any association with necromancy – but there seems no reason against God permitting St. Anthony, for example, to actually be the one drawing our attention to lost objects from his presumably greater vantage point. No Catholic is required to believe that the saints do anything to influence this world other than pray, though.
Usagi
I’m technically still constructing little mini-prayers to my “recruited” saints and adding them to my prayer to God, but since non-Catholics often think of us as praying to saints INSTEAD of “going directly to God,” my method should at least help to allay that concern.
Even when there is a pre-written prayer directed at a saint personally (the most common and well-known being the Hail Mary), the request is usually that the saint pray for us, not take some action as though we are “getting around God” by asking someone else. There are a few established prayers that do ask a saint to take action, of course, like the aforementioned prayer to St. Michael and the children’s rhyming prayer to St. Anthony to help find a lost object. Even then, as earlier posters have pointed out, we do not believe the saint is acting independently of God or doing anything other than God’s will. In the case of St. Michael, there is plenty of Biblical basis for the idea of God sending angels out to actually do things, so that shouldn’t really be an issue. With human saints, we don’t see a lot of that in Scripture – possibly to avoid any association with necromancy – but there seems no reason against God permitting St. Anthony, for example, to actually be the one drawing our attention to lost objects from his presumably greater vantage point. No Catholic is required to believe that the saints do anything to influence this world other than pray, though.
Usagi
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St_Francis
Guest
Well… I remember when I first got my driver’s license and scraped up the side of my parent’s car. I went to my mother! She explained to my father, and that worked out better than if I had gone directly to my father. She could explain it better, not getting all jumbled up, and also he would listen to her all the way through…
The way we pray to God through Mary is often explained like this: I, a small person, want to give my Heavenly Father an apple. I give it to Mary, my Heavenly mother, and she cuts it nicely, arranges it nicely on a pretty plate, maybe adds a garnish… and gives this beautified gift to God.
It’s so great that you are asking these questions, and asking Catholics
Welcome to CAF!
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Della
Guest
While it’s not mandatory, it is one of the Church’s doctrines that must be believed. Perhaps reading through the Apostles Creed, of ancient origin may help put it into perspective:So - praying to Saints is not mandatory for a Catholic?
Thanks all - lot’s of good info here.
“…I believe in the communion of saints…”
See the Catechism of the Catholic Church on this topic: the communion of saints
What it means is that all the people of God, living and dead, are joined in one Body of which Christ is the Head.
This means that we are not separated by death. Jesus clearly told the Sadducees that the dead are alive to God, not dead, as they believed and taught at the time (see Mt. 22:32, Mk. 12:27).
“Pray to” merely means “to ask,” not to offer worship–which is reserved for God alone.
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Auntie_A
Guest
The St Michael Prayer asks defense against the wickedness and snares of the devil. and then the prayer states"…May God rebuke him, we humbly pray, and do thou, oh Prince of the heavenly host, BY THE POWER OF GOD, cast into hell Satan and all the other evil spirits who prowl through the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen"
If we can’t invoke God’s army of angels and saints for fear someone thinks we are worshipping them over or instead of God, what are the angels and saints for? Passive remembrance? Many of the saints made sacrifices in their lives so that they could spend eternity helping God’s children.
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Markie_Boy
Guest
I guess when I see “communion of saints”, I think of saints in the way Paul used it to describe those who believe in and try to follow Christ.
I talked to our Catholic priest about saints, and described believers as saints with a small “s” and cannonized saints as with a large “S”.
I find it odd, that when I mention to Catholics at church that we are all saints it’s a totally foreign concept - something the Catholic church seems to not teach.
Again - take this in the context of one trying to work things out - not pick a scrap.
I talked to our Catholic priest about saints, and described believers as saints with a small “s” and cannonized saints as with a large “S”.
I find it odd, that when I mention to Catholics at church that we are all saints it’s a totally foreign concept - something the Catholic church seems to not teach.
Again - take this in the context of one trying to work things out - not pick a scrap.
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ahs
Guest
Yes, again it’s not an “either/or”. Refer to Randy Carson’s post for some examples about the Body of Christ, etc… The Communion of Saints is all of us Christians…both here and now, and those who have passed on before us.
Yes, that’s a common way to look at it.
Welcome to the troubles of our times…poorly catechized Christians. Ther are MANY MANY Catholics who don’t know what the Church actually teaches on a wide variety of things. Some actually know what the Church teaches, yet reject it as though it were a matter of preference. Catholics Apologetics is just as much for already-Catholics as for anyone else. I was well into my 20’s before I knew much about my Faith.
Again - take this in the context of one trying to work things out - not pick a scrap.
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Kliska
Guest
I don’t think it is even a matter of worshipping them, but rather the chain of command, so to speak. So, we see that Jesus had said that He would ask the Father to send the angels if He wanted to, intimating that the Son wouldn’t have asked/commanded them Himself, but rather asked the Father. I’m just curious if this reflects part of the role of the Father.
I’m a protestant that affirms all believers, here on earth and those with God are indeed the body of Christ. If we use the metaphor of a body, if my left hand itches it “talks” with my brain, and the then my brain “talks” with my right hand and it scratches the left. In essence it goes through the head. So, if I want to say “hi” to my beloved Grandmother who has passed away, I go through the Head, God, to speak with my Grandmother. If I would like angelic help, I go through the Head, God, to have Him send help if it is His will. It’s just the way I perceive it, though I understand your approach.
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Della
Guest
Well, the Church canonizes (adds them to the list of known saints) those who, by the witness of their lives, brought Christ to others. Saints are celebrated on the day they entered heaven. But, the Church also celebrates “All Saints Day” which includes all the faithfully departed who are in heaven but whose names we don’t necessarily know. So, the Church does teach that ordinary people can be and ought to be saints. We can be referred to as saints since we are God’s faithful, but for Catholics it seems a bit presumptuous to add ourselves to the canon of saints while we are still alive.I guess when I see “communion of saints”, I think of saints in the way Paul used it to describe those who believe in and try to follow Christ.
I talked to our Catholic priest about saints, and described believers as saints with a small “s” and cannonized saints as with a large “S”.
I find it odd, that when I mention to Catholics at church that we are all saints it’s a totally foreign concept - something the Catholic church seems to not teach.
Again - take this in the context of one trying to work things out - not pick a scrap.
St. Paul also wrote that we are all members of the Body of Christ, in which we hold to one faith and one baptism. He also referred to those already departed as a “great cloud of witnesses.” And remember that St. Moses and St. Elijah appeared with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration. If they were dead and gone with no way of being joined to the living how did they come to be there and how did they know about Jesus’ coming passion and death? We are all part of one body. The Bible supports this teaching quite well.
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ahs
Guest
That’s a great way to look at it, and this is the reality. But is there anything in Scripture that mandates that we make a conscious effort to communicate that we are really going through the Head in order to scratch the hand? If we reailze that all is through God adn without God that nothing can be, can we not simply say, “hey, John…or St. Michael…pray for me/defend me/scratch my itch…”? Scripture tells us the prayer of the righteous avails much. What is doesn’t say is that when we ask the righteous to pray for us, we have to specifically communicate that we are going through Christ, right?
ETA: It would be the same for Paul’s facecloths. Did everyone who was healed by one of these hankies make a concerted effort to say, “God did this”? We don’t actually know. My guess is that it was assumed that if you requested a cloth of Paul’s to heal you, you already knew that it was through the power of God that the healing would occur.
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1ke
Guest
I don’t know why that would be a foreign concept. The Church Militant and Church Triumphant, along with the Church Suffering, comprise the Communion of Saints.
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edwest2
Guest
Praying to saints is not mandatory, but it is a valid thing for Catholics to do. I could pray to any saint I choose, and as a living part of the Body of Christ, he or she can hear my prayer and pray to God on my behalf. Pope John Paul II has the necessary miracles attributed to him to be made a saint. No, he cannot perform miracles, only God can, but he can pray to God and bring our petition to Him.
catholic.org/saints/story.php?id=51570
Hope this helps,
Ed
catholic.org/saints/story.php?id=51570
Hope this helps,
Ed
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Kliska
Guest
Of course, I would tend to think that the major model in scripture is indeed going through the head in the sense of the Our Father, and the model of Jesus praying. As I said, I can see it the other way, but would probably always tend to go to God as that’s just kind of how I think of it. I wouldn’t mean it to put down the saints, or angels, but rather to focus on the Trinity; pray to the Father with the help of the Spirit through and in the name of the Son.
I’ve “met” several Catholics on here that tend to do the same, as I do understand it is ultimately a matter of personal devotion as to who to ask for certain things.
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JRKH
Guest
I guess when I see “communion of saints”, I think of saints in the way Paul used it to describe those who believe in and try to follow Christ.
I talked to our Catholic priest about saints, and described believers as saints with a small “s” and cannonized saints as with a large “S”.
I find it odd, that when I mention to Catholics at church that we are all saints it’s a totally foreign concept - something the Catholic church seems to not teach.
Again - take this in the context of one trying to work things out - not pick a scrap.
I think that it is fairly common among Catholics to automatically think of Capital “S” saints when one hears the term. To think of one’s self in terms of saintliness (heroic virtue) might seem less than humble.
That said - it is certainly valid to think of ourselves in this way - or at leas “saints in training”…Holy boot camp…
Peace
James
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GangGreen
Guest
The definition of a prayer is
A solemn request for help or expression of thanks addressed to God or an object of worship.
That’s why people get caught up when we say “praying to the saints.” Prayer is an act of worship. If we’re praying to the saints, we’re worshiping them. That’s why we must always be careful to always see our prayers “to the saints” as really a prayer to God through the saints. That’s why we always ask them to pray or intercede for us or something similar along those lines. That’s why in the prayer to Saint Michael, we ask him to cast Satan into hell by the power of God. If we omitted that part of the prayer, then it completely changes the meaning and makes it that we’re asking St. Michael to do these things on his own. Again, in the Hail Mary, we ask Mary for her prayers.
This is the key point.
If someone says “Saint Francis make me find a job!” then that’s not proper. We’re directing a prayer to Saint Francis and expecting him to do something for us on his own. Instead we should say “Saint Francis pray for me to find a job!” or “Saint Francis I ask through your intercession to help me find a job!” The intercession piece of course references the fact that he’s interceding to God on our behalf.
A solemn request for help or expression of thanks addressed to God or an object of worship.
That’s why people get caught up when we say “praying to the saints.” Prayer is an act of worship. If we’re praying to the saints, we’re worshiping them. That’s why we must always be careful to always see our prayers “to the saints” as really a prayer to God through the saints. That’s why we always ask them to pray or intercede for us or something similar along those lines. That’s why in the prayer to Saint Michael, we ask him to cast Satan into hell by the power of God. If we omitted that part of the prayer, then it completely changes the meaning and makes it that we’re asking St. Michael to do these things on his own. Again, in the Hail Mary, we ask Mary for her prayers.
This is the key point.
If someone says “Saint Francis make me find a job!” then that’s not proper. We’re directing a prayer to Saint Francis and expecting him to do something for us on his own. Instead we should say “Saint Francis pray for me to find a job!” or “Saint Francis I ask through your intercession to help me find a job!” The intercession piece of course references the fact that he’s interceding to God on our behalf.
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FathersKnowBest
Guest
I understand what you’re saying and I agree to some extent. However, when someone prays in the mannar of your first example, and they know that it’s really through God’s power, that isn’t invalid any more than St. Paul’s claim that HE saves some people.
St. Paul honestly knows that it’s Jesus who saves them.
But St. Paul also knows that he (Paul) is the instrumental cause of their salvation.
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robert_chacon
Guest
It is a matter of preference to a degree. But scriptures do call on us to pray for one another. When you ask your friend to pray for you do you ask: “I am going through God to ask you to pray that my mothers surgery goes well”? Probably not. Granted, your friend alive on earth. But, through God, the Saints are alive as well. Its really semantics as long as one understands that all power flows from God, and that we are ultimately seeking Him, not the Saint or saint we “pray” to. And we ultimately know the Saints are with God n heaven just as any Protestant would claim a family member to be in heaven because they were saved, so the issue of knowing that one is in heaven should not be a problem either.
I hope this is helping. There have been some great responses , mine excluded, that should help you a great deal. I just wanted to add that one note.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
God, tell Grandma I said, “Hi.”
Grandma, tell God I said, “Hi.”
Both work though I, personally, wouldn’t put God in the position of being my messenger boy.
Catholics tend to ask the saints currently in heaven to pray along with us and for us (on our behalf, not instead of our own prayer), so, saying, “Grandma, please pray for me” - in addition to praying on our own - makes sense.
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Kliska
Guest
God is not my “messenger boy,” He is our Father, He is our Saviour, Redeemer, and Friend, He is our Intercessor. He is also omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient and loves us very much.
J
JRKH
Guest
I don’t think any offense was intended…
But I do think that the two viewpoints show just how differently people can look at things.
You see absolutely no problem with asking God to do something for you and another feels like it makes God a “messenger boy”…
I think that God allows such leeway for His children so that both can come to Him in the way most comfortable for them.
This is why I am always careful to point out to people that the Church does not require private devotion and prayer to the saints. We do accept the principle and the practice and we do invoke the Saints in the Mass, but in our private prayers…there is no such requirement or prohibition so long as it is done in the proper spirit.
Peace
James
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