Do Catholics support a pluralistic society?

[mgreen77]

In theory, the United States is supposed to be a pluralistic society. Our laws tend to protect and encourage people of differing faiths, beliefs, “lifestyles,” and so on to coexist, allowing those communities to maintain their identity while working together for the common good of the nation as a whole.

Is Catholicism opposed to that idea?

I read a thread somewhere about the “Coexist” bumper stickers, where it seemed many Catholics found the idea offensive, apparently believing that it tramples on their right to tell other people what they should believe. If that’s true, are Catholics sorta just “going along” with our pluralistic, secular society, biding their time, waiting and striving for the day when the country can be converted to Catholicism?

Do Catholics value and cherish pluralistic society, or is it seen more as a battleground for souls, where other religions are threats to be tolerated until they can be conquered?

 

[Barbkw]

We reject the philosophy that all paths (secular and religious) contain the fullness of Truth. We reject pluralism that falls into moral relativism.

We reject moral evil, wherever it exists (secular and religious).

We accept the likeness of Christ in the lives of all people, wherever it exists (secular and religious).

 

[Carlan]

In theory, the United States is supposed to be a pluralistic society. Our laws tend to protect and encourage people of differing faiths, beliefs, “lifestyles,” and so on to coexist, allowing those communities to maintain their identity while working together for the common good of the nation as a whole.

Is Catholicism opposed to that idea?

I read a thread somewhere about the “Coexist” bumper stickers, where it seemed many Catholics found the idea offensive, apparently believing that it tramples on their right to tell other people what they should believe. If that’s true, are Catholics sorta just “going along” with our pluralistic, secular society, biding their time, waiting and striving for the day when the country can be converted to Catholicism?

Do Catholics value and cherish pluralistic society, or is it seen more as a battleground for souls, where other religions are threats to be tolerated until they can be conquered?

Besides reading bumper stickers, who are you talking to? Peace, Carlan

 

[Carlan]

We reject the philosophy that all paths (secular and religious) contain the fullness of Truth. We reject pluralism that falls into moral relativism.

We reject moral evil, wherever it exists (secular and religious).

We accept the likeness of Christ in the lives of all people, wherever it exists (secular and religious).

Yes, as Catholic Christians, we believe in the fullness of truth according to Christ’s revelation. and we defend it. Carlan

 

[SonCatcher]

Not opposed to the idea that people of different faith traditions can live peaceably among each other. My impression of the bumper sticker is that it is more of a humanistic/agnostic attempt to enforce harmony. such things do not really change hearts.

I would much rather see a “Jesus Saves” car parked next to a “Praise Allah” car at the park with the owners enjoying a picnic together outside.

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

We reject the philosophy that all paths (secular and religious) contain the fullness of Truth. We reject pluralism that falls into moral relativism.

We reject moral evil, wherever it exists (secular and religious).
…

Meaning what? You’d rewrite our laws to conform to your CCC?

 

[jpjd]

Catholics generally do not view other religions as threats. Catholics also generally do not proselytize. What Catholics do is teach that we have the fullness of truth and welcome others to come into the Church.

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

Catholics generally do not view other religions as threats. Catholics also generally do not proselytize. What Catholics do is teach that we have the fullness of truth and welcome others to come into the Church.

Then we can all exist in our pluralistic society.

 

[NE_Catholic]

Then we can all exist in our pluralistic society.

I think we do

 

[_Locke]

Is Catholicism opposed to that idea?

You may find this article interesting reading.

The most relevant part:

"For the greater part of Christian history, it was accepted as absolute doctrine that civil governments had an obligation to officially recognize the church and support it.

Pope Pius IX made the point in no uncertain terms in 1846 in his encyclical Quanta cura and the accompanying Syllabus of Errors: “The state must recognize [the Catholic Church] as supreme and submit to its influence. . . . The power of the state must be at its disposal and all who do not conform to its requirements must be compelled or punished. . . . Freedom of conscience and cult is madness.” Catholics were told that they need not openly oppose a government that did not so recognize the church (as in the United States); rather, they should tolerate the existing situation until such time as Catholics formed a majority of the voting population." uscatholic.org/church/2008/07/catholic-dissent-when-wrong-turns-out-be-right

So I guess the answer would be a conditional one; the Catholic Church vehemently opposed freedom of religion until the 1960s, when it reversed its stance through the Second Vatican Council’s Declaration on Human Freedom.

 

[Gem]

Catholics don’t say others can’t exist in a pluralistic society. Truly, Catholics were persecuted in the US, UK and elsewhere until very recently. It would be hypocritical of us to turn around and persecute others.

However, evil is evil. And we have a right and duty to vote to change laws which allow immorality. The US Consitution prevents us from creating a Catholic country in the same way that Muslims could not create a Sharia-run country here. But we can use our voices to declare certain things evil which are not matters of thought for others, and create laws forbidding such things (abortion, euthanasia, etc.).

All debate over laws involves some discussion of morality - of what is “right”. There are differences of opinion, and so we vote. Many proponents of pluralism, in reality, simply want their own vision implemented, in which case they are no diffferent than anyone else. But by pushing for a “don’t judge me” “I’ll do what I want” society, what they will really get is chaos, anarchy and ultimately barbarism.

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

Catholics don’t say others can’t exist in a pluralistic society. Truly, Catholics were persecuted in the US, UK and elsewhere until very recently. It would be hypocritical of us to turn around and persecute others.

However, evil is evil. And we have a right and duty to vote to change laws which allow immorality. The US Consitution prevents us from creating a Catholic country in the same way that Muslims could not create a Sharia-run country here. But we can use our voices to declare certain things evil which are not matters of thought for others, and create laws forbidding such things (abortion, euthanasia, etc.).

All debate over laws involves some discussion of morality - of what is “right”. There are differences of opinion, and so we vote. Many proponents of pluralism, in reality, simply want their own vision implemented, in which case they are no diffferent than anyone else. But by pushing for a “don’t judge me” “I’ll do what I want” society, what they will really get is chaos, anarchy and ultimately barbarism.

On the other hand, if you were so inclined, you could do what the Moslems do in many countries with sharia law and establish a civil law based on the CCC, then contract to arbitrate civil disputes among you. Arbitration awards should be enforceable by any regular court. You could have a Catholic enclave established on Catholic-based civil laws.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

Meaning what? You’d rewrite our laws to conform to your CCC?

I think it would be better to say that we’d rewrite THE laws (as much ours as yours) in a moral way. Note that this does not mean that we think all immoral things should be illegal (which should and shouldn’t is a topic by itself), but as laws tend to incorporate moral judgments, you can see that we would want them to be correct. And as Catholics, our faith informs us about moral judgments, so yes - we would like to see a higher similarity between our laws and the CCC.

mgreen77:

Our laws tend to protect and encourage people of differing faiths, beliefs, “lifestyles,” and so on to coexist, allowing those communities to maintain their identity while working together for the common good of the nation as a whole.

We’re cool with this. But we cannot coexist separate from each other, and we cannot pretend that our beliefs do not contradict each other. The laws should prevent one group from coercing another into silence or mistreating another group etc, but they should not attempt to stop the groups from arguing with each other. The government is the moderator to keep argument from turning into fighting, not to prevent the argument.

Do Catholics value and cherish pluralistic society, or is it seen more as a battleground for souls…?

The two are not even close to mutually exclusive - if by pluralistic you mean what was said in the last thing I quoted from you. We value a society where people of different beliefs can interact without killing each other, and it is this which enables us to try to spread the truth. We really and truly believe that Catholicism is the truth, and that reason supports this, and that in a fair society - one that does not censor ideas - we can demonstrate this and use the interactions that such a society makes possible to spread the truth.

…[do Catholics see] other religions [as] threats to be tolerated until they can be conquered?

This would be at least partially inaccurate, I think. We see other religions as wrong, but most have some amount of truth to them, and can in fact do the work of God even if they don’t call it that. And, of course, we think that we can elaborate off that part of the truth that they have to show them the fuller truth that we have.

I, at least, don’t see it as a war between religions, but more as an attempt to spread the truth. I also believe that that truth is what the Catholic Church teaches. Of course, other religions feel the same about their beliefs, so there tends to be friction. But that’s more or less unintentional. That is, a Christian’s desire should be to show people the truth. If all people become Christians, than there will not be other religions, true, but that’s more an effect than a goal in itself.

I read a thread somewhere about the “Coexist” bumper stickers, where it seemed many Catholics found the idea offensive

The reason that these bumper stickers annoy me is that they bring to mind (whether the person who is displaying it intends to or not) the …philosophy? that all religions are just about being happy and warm and fuzzy, and that it doesn’t matter which one you have so long as your sufficiently happy and warm and fuzzy about it.

It’s kind of the same feeling that I get when I’m discussing sola scriptura or some such with my protestant seminarian friend, and one of my other friends says something like “does all this matter anyway? Just love each other!”. It reduces the complex system which describes the most important truths of reality to a carebear mentality - “love each other” is cool, but that “just” is totally unwarranted.

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

I think it would be better to say that we’d rewrite THE laws (as much ours as yours) in a moral way. Note that this does not mean that we think all immoral things should be illegal (which should and shouldn’t is a topic by itself), …

That’s an excellent topic.

 

[stephe1987]

Forcing people into a particular religion, or to accept and pretend that all are true (relativism), are both wrong. People need to be free to choose or reject God, and to choose or reject faith. That is part of free will. You need to be tested to see if you choose God and are worthy of entering heaven. How can you truly choose God if the only choice is God (Muslim dictatorships), or the only choice is no God (atheistic society)? That is why America needs to stay the way it is.

Christians need to be there to evangelize and answer questions if/when a person is ready to find Jesus. A big reason people are leaving or choosing not to join religion is because there are too many conflicting messages and also people don’t really know their faith well enough to explain/defend it. This is why I believe parents need to instruct their children from a young age, and especially when they start middle school and begin to be exposed to the relativism/anti-religion (religion is taught to be anti-science) that takes place in public schools.

I really like that these websites are here to instruct in official teachings rather than heresay, since I hear some very strange ideas on what the “Catholic Church teaches”, and this website is here to clarify things.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

In theory, the United States is supposed to be a pluralistic society. Our laws tend to protect and encourage people of differing faiths, beliefs, “lifestyles,” and so on to coexist, allowing those communities to maintain their identity while working together for the common good of the nation as a whole.

Is Catholicism opposed to that idea?

I read a thread somewhere about the “Coexist” bumper stickers, where it seemed many Catholics found the idea offensive, apparently believing that it tramples on their right to tell other people what they should believe. If that’s true, are Catholics sorta just “going along” with our pluralistic, secular society, biding their time, waiting and striving for the day when the country can be converted to Catholicism?

Do Catholics value and cherish pluralistic society, or is it seen more as a battleground for souls, where other religions are threats to be tolerated until they can be conquered?

I’m not sure how most American Catholics feel, but I have come across Catholics on this board that support the ‘biding their time’ approach.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

You may find this article interesting reading.

The most relevant part:

"For the greater part of Christian history, it was accepted as absolute doctrine that civil governments had an obligation to officially recognize the church and support it.

Pope Pius IX made the point in no uncertain terms in 1846 in his encyclical Quanta cura and the accompanying Syllabus of Errors: “The state must recognize [the Catholic Church] as supreme and submit to its influence. . . . The power of the state must be at its disposal and all who do not conform to its requirements must be compelled or punished. . . . Freedom of conscience and cult is madness.” Catholics were told that they need not openly oppose a government that did not so recognize the church (as in the United States); rather, they should tolerate the existing situation until such time as Catholics formed a majority of the voting population." uscatholic.org/church/2008/07/catholic-dissent-when-wrong-turns-out-be-right

So I guess the answer would be a conditional one; the Catholic Church vehemently opposed freedom of religion until the 1960s, when it reversed its stance through the Second Vatican Council’s Declaration on Human Freedom.

I have heard arguments that the Vatican only did that so that they could oppose the Soviet Union’s suppression of religion without being obviously hypocritical.

 

[Steel_Pinwheel]

I don’t agree that we are a pluralistic society, or even that such a thing is possible.

We are conned into accepting the suppression of Christianity in the name of pluralism. A society can only have one religion. The religion of America is atheism. For example, our tax money is used to teach our children in public schools a species of atheism.

A society can tolerate various religions via the mechanism called freedom. But, government itself is the opposite of freedom. The more government, the less tolerance.

 

[OraLabora]

I have heard arguments that the Vatican only did that so that they could oppose the Soviet Union’s suppression of religion without being obviously hypocritical.

You have to keep in mind that with the expansion of Roman Catholicism from its largely European roots (not talking about the Eastern traditions here), it will find itself as a minority in many of the countries in which it exists. Many of those countries, in fact many European countries post-Reformation, have other religions as the official state religion (for instance, the Church of England-aka the Anglican Church-is the state religion of England, the Dutch Reformed Church is the state Church of the Netherlands, etc).

Therefore in those countries, Catholics are allowed to exist and practice their faith through the tolerance of those nations’ governments and peoples, some of which may be very intolerant indeed.

Does that mean that the Catholic Church needs to be silent when debating the great moral issues of the day? Of course not. But keep in mind that in many countries where it does so, it does so at very near the risk of martyrdom.

It therefore isn’t inconsistent for the Church to preach religious tolerance everywhere, while at the same time demanding to be heard when debating moral issues.

 

[Rence]

In theory, the United States is supposed to be a pluralistic society. Our laws tend to protect and encourage people of differing faiths, beliefs, “lifestyles,” and so on to coexist, allowing those communities to maintain their identity while working together for the common good of the nation as a whole.

Is Catholicism opposed to that idea?

I read a thread somewhere about the “Coexist” bumper stickers, where it seemed many Catholics found the idea offensive, apparently believing that it tramples on their right to tell other people what they should believe. If that’s true, are Catholics sorta just “going along” with our pluralistic, secular society, biding their time, waiting and striving for the day when the country can be converted to Catholicism?

Do Catholics value and cherish pluralistic society, or is it seen more as a battleground for souls, where other religions are threats to be tolerated until they can be conquered?

It depends on the person. Of couse there are Catholics (Protestants, Jewish, Muslim) who are biding their time, waiting and striving for the day when the country can be converted to Catholicism. There are people here on the forum, as well as anywhere else, who believe it is their right to try and tell others what they should believe, what they should think, how they should behave, what they should say, etc. They want the laws of the U.S. to copy the laws of the Catholic Church. We read about them here on this forum, in their own words, as well as other online forums. But there are others out there (Catholic or not) who appreciate the pluralistic society in which we live, and will fight to keep it that way. Personally, I don’t know anyone in real life who falls into the former group. People I know in real life appreciate their right to choose their way to live, and extend that right to others, even if they don’t agree with the other person’s choice. That’s how I was raised, and I’ve been in a Catholic environment all my life until a few years ago when I moved