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Tomdstone
Guest
Isn’t there a Byzantine Catholic liturgy during various times of the year, where toward the end of the liturgy , Catholics pray: "“Most Holy Theotokos, save us!” ? (Theotokos meaning Mary the Mother of God)?
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Still, the question remains valid. This is the age of the Internet, where all sorts of good and bad stuff reside. The text of the Mass, in both its Ordinary and Extraordinary forms are out there for the world to see.
Can’t he exert a little effort and look it up and see for himself if the Mass is indeed “all about Mary?”
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captainrick
Guest
Well, you could just laugh in the faces of the uneducated, misinformed fools who are gullible enough to believe this garbage. Any so-called church that teaches this is just hate mongering.
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clem456
Guest
I don’t know the specific answer to your question.
I’m sure the Byzantine Catholics do not believe or ask Mary to accomplish their salvation.
I ask for help all the time. The spiritual realm is no different. An arrogant person does not ask for help.
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Techno2000
Guest
Right
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sheepcat
Guest
The heretical group that worshipped Mary were called Collyridians, from the word relating to the small rolls or cakes they offered her as sacrifices.
You may hear some Catholics referring to “worship” of Mary or the saints, but that’s a very archaic way of describing it. Normally we’re said to “honor” or “venerate” her, due to her intimate connection with Christ.
To get technical, in Greek, “latria” is the form of worship reserved for God alone- you can see the word in idolatry, for example. Idol - latry. We honor or venerate the saints, and the word used there is “doulia”, which refers to servitude. We give to Mary, as foremost of the saints, “hyperdulia”.
Some confusion also comes from Catholics referring to Mary as “mother of God”. This doesn’t mean we believe that she created God or is the source of His divinity, but rather, as with all things with Mary, points toward Christ. Mary is the mother of Christ (a person, not merely a nature), Christ is God, therefore Mary is the mother of God. It’s a denial of Nestorianism and a focus on Christ’s full divinity.
As a protestant, I used to see art depicting a mother goddess and child compared to Mary with Jesus. Isis with Horus was a favorite. However, there’s nothing pagan about a mother holding her child, and there’s only so many ways to depict it! There’s really nothing to this, either.
This is the official Catholic teaching on Mary, from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It’s only a few paragraphs- you’ll find no mention of her as a goddess.
You may hear some Catholics referring to “worship” of Mary or the saints, but that’s a very archaic way of describing it. Normally we’re said to “honor” or “venerate” her, due to her intimate connection with Christ.
To get technical, in Greek, “latria” is the form of worship reserved for God alone- you can see the word in idolatry, for example. Idol - latry. We honor or venerate the saints, and the word used there is “doulia”, which refers to servitude. We give to Mary, as foremost of the saints, “hyperdulia”.
Some confusion also comes from Catholics referring to Mary as “mother of God”. This doesn’t mean we believe that she created God or is the source of His divinity, but rather, as with all things with Mary, points toward Christ. Mary is the mother of Christ (a person, not merely a nature), Christ is God, therefore Mary is the mother of God. It’s a denial of Nestorianism and a focus on Christ’s full divinity.
As a protestant, I used to see art depicting a mother goddess and child compared to Mary with Jesus. Isis with Horus was a favorite. However, there’s nothing pagan about a mother holding her child, and there’s only so many ways to depict it! There’s really nothing to this, either.
This is the official Catholic teaching on Mary, from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It’s only a few paragraphs- you’ll find no mention of her as a goddess.
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Telstar
Guest
As others have already said, those people have never been to a Catholic Mass, nor do they know or understand what it’s actually about, which is to offer up our prayers of worship and thanksgiving to the Holy Trinity of God. Mary is only mentioned during our prayers that are offered to God, while we also remember all the Saints and Holy Martyrs who came before us, to ask them to also pray to God for us.
Maybe some of them should remember what Jesus said about those that blaspheme against the Holy Ghost, by attributing the works of God to the devil."Matthew 12: [25] And Jesus knowing their thoughts, said to them: Every kingdom divided against itself shall be made desolate: and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand.
[26] And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself: how then shall his kingdom stand? [27] And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. [28] But if I by the Spirit of God cast out devils, then is the kingdom of God come upon you. [29] Or how can any one enter into the house of the strong, and rifle his goods, unless he first bind the strong? and then he will rifle his house. [30] He that is not with me, is against me: and he that gathereth not with me, scattereth.
[31] Therefore I say to you: Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but the blasphemy of the Spirit shall not be forgiven. [32] And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come."
Is it possible that those who accuse Catholics of “worshiping” Mary as a goddess when it isn’t true, or attributing miracles like the one that happened at Fatima, or those worked by people like Padré Pio to the devil, might also fall into that category?
Just food for thought.
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revert_jen
Guest
Cuckoo banana-bird… Hahahahahaha.
and who knew that Horus would have a quasi-German accent.
That video is a hoot.
To the OP: Well, it seems like people who say Catholics worship Mary are speculating (without useful data) about what is going on in other people’s heads, without listening to what people say. What the Church teaches is clear, it is written down, and says plainly that Mary is a human being. If you ask a Catholic whether Mary is a goddess, he will say no. It’s not really possible to get useful data about whether Catholics think Mary is a goddess, if you’re going to ignore both the Church’s clear written teachings on the matter and also what Catholics say they believe. If we really thought she was a goddess, why would we hide it? If she were a goddess, wouldn’t we be worried about offending her by repeatedly saying she isn’t? Since the Catholic Church is not well known for hiding those of her teachings that are not popular, why would we just hide this one?
Anyway, that’s what I’d say to them. I have no idea whether it would help at all.
–Jen
LaughingBoy1503
Well-known member
I use to read those tracts when I was a little protestant kid. I love how whoever is not the fundamentalist Christian converts to protestant Christianity within a matter of minuets of being confronted about how whatever they believe is wrong!
I could just as easily (well, I am a terrible artist) do one in reverse about converting a fundamentalist to Catholicism. I would just make it that instead of the ex-Catholic lady saying “A priest raped me” the ex-fundamentalist lady saying “The pastor was having a affair with a married woman, had a child out of wedlock as a result of a affair, his wife divorced him and he later got arrested for soliciting a prostitute.”
What is sad is that I would not be surprised if that part of the tract was based on a true even in someone’s life. And my made up scenario, I am sure, has happened too.
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Techno2000
Guest
http://media.chick.com/images/Tract_Myths/myth_5.jpgI use to read those tracts when I was a little protestant kid. I love how whoever is not the fundamentalist Christian converts to protestant Christianity within a matter of minuets of being confronted about how whatever they believe is wrong!
I could just as easily (well, I am a terrible artist) do one in reverse about converting a fundamentalist to Catholicism. I would just make it that instead of the ex-Catholic lady saying “A priest raped me” the ex-fundamentalist lady saying “The pastor was having a affair with a married woman, had a child out of wedlock as a result of a affair, his wife divorced him and he later got arrested for soliciting a prostitute.”
What is sad is that I would not be surprised if that part of the tract was based on a true even in someone’s life. And my made up scenario, I am sure, has happened too.
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Richca
Guest
No, we don’t worship Mary as she is a creature like us, we only worship God. The Mass is about worshiping God. No, Mary is not in reality an ancient Babylonian goddess, however, she is the mother of God, that is, Jesus, the Man-God. Mary is the most perfect and the greatest of all of God’s creatures and she is also the mother of the Mystical Body of Christ, the Church. As Eve is the mother of all the living, our Blessed Lady is the mother of all the spiritual living, regenerated mankind. It was God’s will that our Blessed Mother be intimately united to Christ in the redemption of mankind and she played a singular role in the redemption of humanity united with her divine Son, Jesus Christ. Accordingly, catholics honor Mary with a singular and special devotion since she is the Mother of God, God’s greatest and most perfect creature, and our own mother in the order of divine grace.
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Eric_Hilbert
Guest
Let’s dispense with the Chick cartoons.
Giving him free publicity doesn’t further the conversation.
Giving him free publicity doesn’t further the conversation.
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Elizium23
Guest
Jack T. Chick is actually a huge reason I returned to the Catholic Church in 2000, after 11 years. I had known about his tracts for several years before that, and had always thought they were kind of cute and kitschy. Then I read what he had to say about Catholicism, and I said to myself, there simply has to be someone to stand up and refute this guy. He is outrageously wrong and he is leading people astray. This is exactly how and why I became involved in Catholic apologetics, and the impulse to study my Catholic faith led me to go to Confession, and Mass, and finally to be confirmed.
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JustaServant
Guest
Even among fundies, at least when I walked among them, Chick was considered a nut. His cartoons are aimed at the lowest common denominator of intelligence and reading level, perhaps his own.
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exnihilo
Guest
If I were told this I’d ask what worship is. You need to define terms first. Almost everyone who makes this claim will struggle to define worship. They tend to make assertions without actually thinking about what worship is.
Also, it is interesting to me that this belief, in Mary worship, is shared and criticized by Islam. This misunderstanding is ancient and the cause of much trouble.
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spedteacherita
Guest
He could, but there’s an awful lot of misinformation out there and Catholic Answers seems the best place to get the correct information. Just a thought…
Blessings,
Rita
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MartinJordan
Guest
Can Mary forgive sins? If the answer is no, then she is not a Goddess.
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MJ
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IGotQuestions
Guest
Very true. It is God who decides what constitutes worship.
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