Do Christians Admit that Muslims are Correct?

[MartinJordan]

It is very easy to conclude differences in Deity when one affirms the Trinity while the other
does not, but then you must address Judaism. If Islam has a different God on basis of the
disbelief of Trinity, why do the Jews fall in that same category?

I am open to the possibility that a demon might have fooled Muhammad, but if such was the
case, would it not have been the said-demon’s intent on talking about the same God while at
the same time giving false information about that same One True God?

To deny the Trinity is not to deny God, but to believe falsely ABOUT the True God.

I think you are making a pretty good point. Remember that Jesus answered the Jews in John 8 : If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: Yet ye have not known him; but I know him…"

So isn’t Jesus trying to tell the Jews that although they don’t accept him still it is the same God?

Muslims deny Jesus as Son of God. It is similar right?

MJ

 

[Tsuwano]

I respectfully disagree

That’s ok, but I wonder if you disagree with everything I wrote or just part of it?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Amen

How does that stand to reason, it would follow that the Jews also don’t worship the God of Abraham.

 

[manualman]

Any Narnia fans here? CS Lewis did a very nice job of explaining this whole issue in “The Last Battle” story of Narnia. Spoilers to follow!

In the Narnia series, of course, Aslan is Jesus. The nation of Narnia is the Church. The Calormen are fairly obvious stand-ins for the muslims who worship Tash (Allah).

In the story, a self-interested group tries to create a merged religion that worships Tashlan (get it? Aslan and Tash are the same!). This is an evil and false plot designed to manipulated the people into unfaithfulness.

But as the story goes on, we discover that there ARE Calormen who sincerely seek the Grace of Christ (Aslan), but mistakenly believe Tash (Allah) to be Aslan (Christ).

It’s a LOT more clear in the whole novel than I make it sound above! The point is that while Islamic theology is clearly wrong when it conflicts with catholic theology, this doesn’t automatically make the PEOPLE that worship Allah demonic or evil. Many sincerely find Christ (without knowing Him by name) in those aspects of Islamic teaching that ARE true (and there are more than a few).

This whole mess makes it crucial that Christians remember to treat Islam (the set of religious beliefs) very differently than we treat muslims (the people). It’s completely valid to criticize the shortcomings (even horrific ones) of Islam, but it must be done in a way that does not push muslims away from Christ. Easier to say than do.

 

[farallon]

Rather than seeing Islam as a different religion, after reading Belloc, Chesterton, and others, I see it more as a Christian heresy. An opinion or doctrine at variance with the orthodox or accepted doctrine. Like Jehovah’s witnesses, Mormons etc., they have decided against the divinity of Christ, and the trinity. In order to do this, one must essentially write a new bible, and this is what the Q’ran is. (see also, the book of Mormon and New World Translation). If Scripture is accepted and believed as is, in it’s orthodox state, it does not lead to or point to the Q’ran, but rather the Jesus (Emanuel) of the New Testament of the Bible. I still don’t know all the motives for the Koran. I do know, however, that it’s teachings regarding Jesus are not true. They are not borne out in any way in the New Testament. This is not intended as offense to any Muslims. Truth is what truth is. Jesus Christ is the truth. The words concerning Him in the Q’ran are not the truth, and so by reason, one can deduce that the Q’ran is not the truth, and that Jesus was God’s final Word to mankind, until the consummation of time. The Q’ran and Christianity can not both be true, because they are at odds on the axioms. If only one is true, I trust Jesus as the way the truth and the life, and Christianity was the result of Christ.

Islam is not a Christian heresy. Mohammad consciously rejected both Christianity and Judaism, and created his own religion from elements of both and threw in some novel ideas for good measure. By your reasoning, if Islam is a Christian heresy, then Christianity is a Jewish heresy and we should all repent and go back to following Jewish law. No, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, although having similar roots, are different religions and profess to worship the same God. It is just that Christians have a better understanding of God than Jews and Islam has distorted both.

 

[rinnie]

Okay this reply is a little confusing, but I’m sure that the point is being missed again.
If you believe Christians and Muslims DO believe in the same God, EXCELLENT!
That’s exactly the attitude I want to inspire in other Christians.

ah Yes I was quite confused on what you were asking. Sorry

 

[rinnie]

How does that stand to reason, it would follow that the Jews also don’t worship the God of Abraham.

Exactly. And it would as I have stated before we would also have to accuse Protestants also because they deny Christ in the Eucharist.

I mean if you deny Christ you deny Christ right?

The Church teaches that although Muslims and Jews do not see the Trinity as the 3 persons in One God does not make the one God false.

Just like a Protestant no seeing the living Christ in the Eucharist make the protestant God different.

As long as you pray to the One God the Father Almighty creator of heaven and earth the God of Abraham you are praying to the God of the Trinity. Just because you are not granted the grace to see it at this time, does not make the one true God false.

 

[rinnie]

My point is that muslims pray to something that is either a false demon, doesn’t exist or something else, not the God of Abraham. The God of Abraham is trinity and Muslims deny trinity, thust they are not abrahamic in their faith, maybe insofar as their lineage is concerned but that can be debated.

Oh so then what you are saying is when the Muslims pray to the God of Abraham they are just lying then?

 

[Brendan_64]

Nostar Aetate clearly states:

“The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God.”

Muslims do worship the same God as we do. That is the teaching of our Church, so therefore that is how it is. To hold a personal view contrary to this is to hold a personal view that is contrary to the teaching of our Church.

 

[manualman]

Muslims do worship the same God as we do. That is the teaching of our Church, so therefore that is how it is. To hold a personal view contrary to this is to hold a personal view that is contrary to the teaching of our Church.

This post is unbalanced and insufficiently explained. As I said earlier, it is true in the sense that where Islam and Christianity agree, muslims have a true understanding of God and it is accurate to say we worship the same God. But it’s important not to make such statements without at the same time acknowledging the significant differences in how each religion understands God and the serious flaws that Islamic ideas erroneously introduce into God’s character and nature.

Put another way, Islamic theology has a seriously distorted and malformed idea of who God is and what His character and nature are. They may worship the true God, but they view Him through a “funhouse” mirror. When someone holds up a picture of YOU taken in a funhouse mirror and says “Is this what you look like?” it is insufficient to simply say “Yes, that’s me in that mirror.” Some additional explanation is required.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

…Put another way, Islamic theology has a seriously distorted and malformed idea of who God is and what His character and nature are. They may worship the true God, but they view Him through a “funhouse” mirror.

Yes to that and above, and that is what we must focus on!
Not “Different God”, but “Different understanding of God”, and label that as the issue.

 

[Brendan_64]

This post is unbalanced and insufficiently explained.

No it’s not. I was simply pointing out that our Church teaches that Muslims do in fact worship the same God as we do.

I was not addressing the fact that their understanding of God is flawed and erroneous, I was simply pointing out that Muslims do worship the same God as we do. There seems to be quite a number of Catholics who maintain that Muslims do not worship the same God as we do. That view is wrong and is in contrary to the teaching of our Church.

Nostra Aetate is pretty clear and unambiguous on this matter. Any Catholic who maintains Muslims do not worship the same God as we do has either not read Nostra Aetate (or the relevant sections of the Catechism) or is aware of what is stated in Nostra Aetate regarding Muslims, and has chosen to reject it.

"The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom."

 

[manualman]

No it’s not. I was simply pointing out that our Church teaches that Muslims do in fact worship the same God as we do.

I was not addressing the fact that their understanding of God is flawed and erroneous, I was simply pointing out that Muslims do worship the same God as we do. There seems to be quite a number of Catholics who maintain that Muslims do not worship the same God as we do. That view is wrong and is in contrary to the teaching of our Church.

I’ll support you in your point that those who say that muslims worship a false God (and say nothing more) need correcting. But I think it’s EQUALLY incorrect to say that muslims worship the same God we do (without any further explanation or qualifiers). Neither position is accurate without further nuance.

 

[Brendan_64]

I’ll support you in your point that those who say that muslims worship a false God (and say nothing more) need correcting. But I think it’s EQUALLY incorrect to say that muslims worship the same God we do (without any further explanation or qualifiers). Neither position is accurate without further nuance.

Either Muslims worship the same God as we do or they do not. There is no room for any fudge in the middle. The teachings of our Church is clear that the answer to this is that they do. It cannot be incorrect to say that Muslims worship the same God as we do. Further explanations or qualifiers may be useful to explain the differences in belief, but further explanations or qualifiers do not change the answer that they are providing further information for.

It is a black and white, yes or no question.

Whether or not their view of the God they worship is correct or not is another question. If they do not worship the same God as we do, then the answer to that question is easy - everything they believe about God is wrong. If, as our Church teaches, they do worship the same God as we do, then we need to explore their beliefs and point out errors, as clearly not all of what they believe will be erroneous.

 

[manualman]

I cannot agree. If one says that David Koresh and Jim Jones worship the same God that you and I do, I implicitly make a substantial validation of their religious worldview. Saying that in isolation is a disservice to the truth (as is citing magisterial documents as if they exist isolated from all other church doctrine and teaching).

Now Islam as a whole is not precisely comparable to either of those cults, but I’m making a comparison of principle, not degree of severity. Errors are to be made here on EITHER side of the truth.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

I cannot agree. If one says that David Koresh and Jim Jones worship the same God that you and I do, I implicitly make a substantial validation of their religious worldview. Saying that in isolation is a disservice to the truth (as is citing magisterial documents as if they exist isolated from all other church doctrine and teaching).

Now Islam as a whole is not precisely comparable to either of those cults, but I’m making a comparison of principle, not degree of severity. Errors are to be made here on EITHER side of the truth.

You’re just being silly now. David Koresh and Jim Jones were 1) lunatics and 2) they technically did not worship anyone so far as I am aware, seeing how they exalted themselves to the position of Godhood. Such is typical of Cult leaders.

AND ISLAM IS BY NO MEANS COMPARABLE TO EITHER OF THOSE CULTS !!!
Shame on you!

You also can’t compare an entire religion like Islam to men like David Koresh and Jim Jones. Rather look at the cults of David Koresh and Jim Jones. The Davidians, I think, did worship David Koresh, thinking him to be Jesus, something like that, but they desired their worship for Jesus, they had the same God in mind. THAT DOES NOT MEAN THEY WERE RIGHT! And Jim Jones’ Peoples Temple, the people there, at least the laity members not so deep in Jones’ inner-circle, also believed in God. THAT DOESN’T MAKE THEIR MOVEMENT CORRECT, however.

This is one of the
worst arguments I
have seen in this
thread yet.
​

 

[manualman]

Sigh, people always try to equate comparisons in principle to comparisons in severity in order to negate the point. Even when I SPECIFICALLY said that it wasn’t a comparison in severity. This is what they call a failure to communicate!

My point stands, even if you grasp wildly for reasons not to see it. Islam distorts the image of God so badly that it is downright harmful to say that they worship the same God we do without making the caveat. Two paragraphs from ONE church document are not the entirety of church teaching on the matter and it’s erroneous to the point of deception to suggest that they are.

 

[Brendan_64]

Two paragraphs from ONE church document are not the entirety of church teaching on the matter and it’s erroneous to the point of deception to suggest that they are.

They ARE Church Teaching, we are bound by them. I quoted the entire section of Nostra Aetate that relates to Islam. It is unambiguous that our Church recognises that Muslims do in fact worship the same God as we do. Are you arguing that quoting what Nostra Aetate sattes is deception, or that Nostra Aetate itself is a deception?

Here is what the Catechism (which has incorporated Nostra Aetate) has to say on the matter.

839 “Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.”[325] The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,[326] “the first to hear the Word of God.”[327] The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,[328] “for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.”[329]

840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and** together with us they adore the one, merciful God,** mankind’s judge on the last day.”[330]

842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race: All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .[331]

843 "The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as ‘a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.’

CCC 841 is explicit on what it says about Muslims- ** together with us they adore the one, merciful God,**

Whether people like it or not our Church does not view Islam as a wicked faith, but believes that Muslims worship the same God as Christians (and Jews) and that they are included in God’s plan for salvation.

Holding a view other than this is to hold a belief that is not a Catholic belief.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Sigh, people always try to equate comparisons in principle to comparisons in severity in order to negate the point. Even when I SPECIFICALLY said that it wasn’t a comparison in severity. This is what they call a failure to communicate!

My point stands, even if you grasp wildly for reasons not to see it. Islam distorts the image of God so badly that it is downright harmful to say that they worship the same God we do without making the caveat. Two paragraphs from ONE church document are not the entirety of church teaching on the matter and it’s erroneous to the point of deception to suggest that they are.

The very fact that you make such a comparison is inappropriate. No failure in communication, just pointing out the fault of your comparisons.
I will state it again: “You …] can’t compare an entire religion like Islam to [individual] men like David Koresh and Jim Jones.”

Now how can Islam distort the image of God if it isn’t even of the same God? That is the error you are making. Let me then interpret your answer:
Muslim says “Jesus is not the Son of God,” to which YOU respond “Yes that is Correct.”

And on the “Two paragraphs from ONE church document…”,
if the Church says it, it is true, and as you say…NO BUTS!

 

[manualman]

The devil tells many lies by quoting Scripture, no? One way he does that is to polarize people into opposing errors on either side of the truth. On this topic those errors are:

1. Islam is utterly evil with no redeeming content in it.
2. Islam preaches about the same God as Catholicism and is to be applauded for it (with no caveats or warnings about problems innate to Islam).

Nostra Aetate is written in the context of re-approaching relations with muslims after a 1,300 year history of bloody conflict between our two peoples. It was written with an intent to counter balance a history of falling into error #1 above. For that purpose, it is entirely correct and authoritative (“no buts” as you noted). It was never intended to be used for syncretistic arguments that erroneously grant too much legitimacy to Islam as a religious belief in comparison to Christianity.

Back to the original question of the thread (which is why I’m being stubborn):
No. Christians do NOT agree that muslim beliefs are entirely correct. We hold some beliefs in common. But Islamic beliefs are flat out wrong in many areas.