Do Christians and Muslims Worship the Same God?

[Discipulo]

What people believe and what Scripture says is true is not always the same thing.

What is your authority on interpreting scripture? The scriptures are impossible to interpret correctly without the help of the Holy Spirit otherwise we would not have so many contradicting interpretations by Bible Only Christians.

how can anyone even suggest that the Christians and the Muslims worship the same God? If they do then they have to also agree that God is confused totally revealing himself to the Christians in one way and then revealing himself to the Muslims in so many contradictions.

The Church’s catechism states Christians, Muslims and the Jews worship the same God, but like the Jews, the Muslims worship God The Father and thus have an incomplete view. This is not too far off, we have an example of this in scripture where St. Paul identified an unknown Gentile God as Our God as well. That said Muhammad’s revelations could have well been Satanic in origin, but this does not mean they do not worship the same God. The Protestant “Reformers” like Luther, Zwingli, Calvin etc. were not influenced by God but by pride and disobedience to The Church and thus were influenced by Satan in spreading their heresy, this does not mean that Protestants are not Christians and worship the same God as Catholics or that their baptisms are invalid. See what I mean?

 

[MorningSong51]

This question does not have an answer beyond our reach. On the contrary, it is clear for us to see. The choices we have is to either believe what is written or to try and find a way aroun it:

“Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.” (1 John 4:15).

From the verse quoted above, to abide in God the Father means that you have confessed Jesus as the Son of God. Thus, if anyone - whether they are Muslim, or any other religion - does not confess Jesus as the Son of God, they do not abide in God the Father. Thus, they do not worship God. Accordingly, their worship is to another god.

Our Lord opens our eyes to many things – He is the revealer of secrets to man’s own thoughts, bringing them to light. So where can any of us escape from him? Where can we go and hide? God calls each of us by our own name (Song of Songs ""I was asleep but my heart was awake. Listen!) –He knows our every thought; knows when we go out; when we sleep; and is intimately familiar with all of our ways. Jesus said that when you pray, shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you. God is aware of all our needs even before we ask, but it is in the asking – that we receive. Beer Lahai Roi - “the One who sees me”

So I can understand the Apostle Paul’s words when he spoke about the Lord not being slack concerning His promises because of our sins, or hastens His promises because of any merit on our part." God’s promises are not influenced by our attitudes or anything we merited but they rest on his grace and mercy. Repeating the verse, Moses tells the Israelites, “After the LORD your God has driven them out before you, do not say to yourself, “The LORD has brought me here to take possession of this land because of my righteousness.” - So we can not boast on what had been given to us - and that being the gift of God’s grace - as we are included in the promises that was given to Abraham.

Psalm 119,brings out some good pointers – “18 Open my eyes that I may see”;20 My soul is consumed with longing;22 Remove from me their scorn and contempt;preserve my life according to your word;27 Cause me to understand the way of your precepts;34 Give me understanding;35 Direct me in the path;36 Turn my heart toward ;41 May your unfailing love come to me, LORD, your salvation, according to your promise

You have to ask to receive – the graces that God so wonderfully will give to all of us but God has to open our heart(s) for us to receive it - and our eyes. I think Psalm 119 gives us some food for thought on how to ask.

And Our Lord tell us, “If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

 

[gerhardc]

What is your authority on interpreting scripture? The scriptures are impossible to interpret correctly without the help of the Holy Spirit otherwise we would not have so many contradicting interpretations by Bible Only Christians.

The Church’s catechism states Christians, Muslims and the Jews worship the same God, but like the Jews, the Muslims worship God The Father and thus have an incomplete view. This is not too far off, we have an example of this in scripture where St. Paul identified an unknown Gentile God as Our God as well.

The Protestant “Reformers” like Luther, Zwingli, Calvin etc. were not influenced by God but by pride and disobedience to The Church and thus were influenced by Satan in spreading their heresy, this does not mean that Protestants are not Christians and worship the same God as Catholics or that their baptisms are invalid. See what I mean?

Is this going to be your answer - that quoting 1 John 4:7 as showing that *anyone who does not confess Jesus as the Son of God does not abide in the Father *is not a valid argument because I have no guarantee that I had the help of the Holy Spirit when interpreting that verse? How can you make that claim? What is more, who helped you interpret John 3:16. And 1 John 4:9?

I like your reference to St. Paul - our standard should be that which we know (not hope) was inspired by God. Nonetheless, please be so kind as to give a little more **reference from the Bible ** about your claims that St. Paul identified an unknown God as our God? If you are referring to his trip to Athens in Acts 17 then please **do not omit **to also reference St. Paul’s **insistence that the people of Athens repent from the erroneous ways **noting God’s judgement for not accepting Jesus as having been raised from the dead:

"Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

Further, if you do not mind to **back up your claims from the Bible **that the likes of Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, etc. (not that I am a great fan of any one of these men) were influenced/inspired by Satan it might serve as a source of insight to me.

 

[Marybeloved]

What is your authority on interpreting scripture? The scriptures are impossible to interpret correctly without the help of the Holy Spirit otherwise we would not have so many contradicting interpretations by Bible Only Christians.

The Church’s catechism states Christians, Muslims and the Jews worship the same God, but like the Jews, the Muslims worship God The Father and thus have an incomplete view. This is not too far off, we have an example of this in scripture where St. Paul identified an unknown Gentile God as Our God as well. That said Muhammad’s revelations could have well been Satanic in origin, but this does not mean they do not worship the same God. The Protestant “Reformers” like Luther, Zwingli, Calvin etc. were not influenced by God but by pride and disobedience to The Church and thus were influenced by Satan in spreading their heresy, this does not mean that Protestants are not Christians and worship the same God as Catholics or that their baptisms are invalid. See what I mean?

I don’t think it’s accurate to say the Jews and Muslims worship God the Father. They worship the one God Who Christians alone know is in his inner nature, three distinct persons. The Jews and Muslims just don’t know this truth, because it’s a matter of revelation which they don’t have/accept. God’s inner nature is how God exists in himself. No one can be privy to this truth without God in his grace revealing it- Not even the Blessed virgin or the Highest Angels. they worship the One God, they don’t know that he is Trinity.

 

[someguy14]

John 14:10 KJV
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

 

[gerhardc]

The problem with the Muslims is that they believe in, follow an preach the teachings of a man who strongly denied that Jesus is the Christ. Reference to Jesus as the Christ is met with vehement opposition, if not violence, in most Muslim communities. Their complaint against Christians is that Christ was not the Son of God; their god does not have a Son.

The Holy Spirit knew what would come and warned us not to be deceived. The test, He noted, was fairly simple - something anyone could understand:*

Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. (1 John 2:22).*

Muslims deny that Jesus is the Christ. Therefore, according to Scripture, they serve antichrist. He who serves antichrist does not serve God. Muslims do not serve God.

 

[Discipulo]

Is this going to be your answer - that quoting 1 John 4:7 as showing that *anyone who does not confess Jesus as the Son of God does not abide in the Father *is not a valid argument because I have no guarantee that I had the help of the Holy Spirit when interpreting that verse? How can you make that claim? What is more, who helped you interpret John 3:16. And 1 John 4:9?

You added “anyone who does not”, the verse does not say that. I do not rely on my own interpretation for any verse of the Bible, I never took a higher level theology course nor am I ordained(and thus recieve the Holy Spirit through Holy Orders) I rely on the Church that Christ founded and guided by the Holy Spirit to give an infallible interpretation of Scripture.

As for St. Paul on the Pagans in Athens, Paul’s appearance at The Areopagus he preaches to Gentiles in a theological rather than a Christological fashion, Paul appeals to the Greek belief in divinity as responsible for the origin or existence in the universe. It contests the common belief in a multiplicity of gods supposedly exerting their powers through their images. It acknowledges that the attempt to find God is a constant human endeavor, it declares further, that God is the judge of the Human race, that the time of the judgement has been determined, and that it will be executed through Jesus. The speech reflects sympathy with pagan religiosity, handles the subject of idol worship gently, not from the standpoint of creation but from the standpoint of judgement.

Further, if you do not mind to **back up your claims from the Bible **that the likes of Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, etc. (not that I am a great fan of any one of these men) were influenced/inspired by Satan it might serve as a source of insight to me.

There is a difference between being a heretic and schismatic, the heretic always retains faith in Christ. Schismatics, are they who of their own will and intention separate themselves from the unity of the Church. The protestant reformers were heretics, the Eastern Orthodox bishops who separated from Rome were not and are a Church with valid Holy Orders. Both schisms and heresy are caused by the blinding power of sin and are egged on by the Devil, it is not a wish of God to see Christians disunity or the spreading of false doctrines about Christ, Scripture, the Virgin Mary or the Eucharist. Here are some passages to look up:

Matthew 24:11, 23-26

“And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray.”

“Then if any one says to you, Lo, here is the Christ!' or There he is!’ do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.”

Luke 11:23

He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathers not with me scatters.

Matthew 18:17

And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to you as the heathen and publican.

Galatians 1:9

As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema.

Acts 20:28-31
“take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the Church of God, . . . I know that, after my departure, ravening wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock.”

Martin Luther and the other Protestant reformers are heretics because they separated and urged others to separate from the Church Christ founded, not just that, they took out books from the Bible including changing some passages or omitting some out to fit their new theologies. It was Martin Luther who tossed out the seven books considered canonical since the beginning of Church history. He also rejected the epistle to the Hebrews and the book of Revelation. He also called the epistle of James “an epistle of straw” because James 2:14–26 conflicted with his personal theology on good works. He also added the word (in his German translation) only in Romans 3:20 and Romans 4:15, and he inserted the word alone in Romans 3:28. One of the unifying things in Protestantism and non-denominational offspring from the Protestant movement is their adherance to Sola Scriptura and private interpretation, the doctrine of private judgment, which denies the infallible authority of the Church is heresy itself. This idea is rejected in 2 Peter 1:20, where we are told the first rule of Bible interpretation: “First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation.”

 

[gerhardc]

You have written quite a bit and make a couple of assertions. I will attempt to address each separately.

I do not rely on my own interpretation for any verse of the Bible, I never took a higher level theology course nor am I ordained(and thus recieve the Holy Spirit through Holy Orders) I rely on the Church that Christ founded and guided by the Holy Spirit to give an infallible interpretation of Scripture.

With great respect, (ordained) church leaders have changed their minds on several issues over the ages, …was the Spirit confused when they asked for answers or were church leaders not hearing right? Further, does a course in theology qualify us to hear the Spirit or does the Spirit Himself qualify us to hear Him? Does God reveal Himself only to those who have taken a course in theology?

Think about what He says on this topic: “But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.” (1 John 2:27)

From the above, the Holy Spirit, through the Bible, says we can (and should) hear straight from Him. How can we relate to the Father if we cannot hear Him for ourselves?

Are you not perhaps delegating your own responsibility to “Test all things; hold fast what is good” (1 Thessalonians 5:21)? Perhaps.

As for St. Paul on the Pagans in Athens, Paul’s appearance at The Areopagus he preaches to Gentiles in a theological rather than a Christological fashion, Paul appeals to the Greek belief in divinity as responsible for the origin or existence in the universe. It contests the common belief in a multiplicity of gods supposedly exerting their powers through their images. It acknowledges that the attempt to find God is a constant human endeavor, it declares further, that God is the judge of the Human race, that the time of the judgement has been determined, and that it will be executed through Jesus. The speech reflects sympathy with pagan religiosity, handles the subject of idol worship gently, not from the standpoint of creation but from the standpoint of judgement.

Whether or not St. Paul spoke gently or harshly is not the issue. The issue here is what message did he convey? As far as I can see, St. Paul was saying, ‘you already know that there is a God - let me tell you about who He really is. He is the God who sent His Son, the Christ. Now Christ has forgiven all ignorance prior to His redemptive work on earth. But now He requires all men to repent’. The choice is yours - follow God through repentance or continue in the same way as before’. Scripture says that some believed and some did not. St. Paul did not water down who God is and what the requirements for serving Him are to please people.

There is a difference between being a heretic and schismatic, the heretic always retains faith in Christ. Schismatics, are they who of their own will and intention separate themselves from the unity of the Church.

In my definition, a heretic is someone who deliberately separates himself from the truth as found in Scripture. Refer John 17:17 - ‘sanctify them by Your word. Your word is truth’ (paraphrase). The Church does not sanctify us. The word of God does. The word of God is found in Scripture.

The protestant reformers were heretics, the Eastern Orthodox bishops who separated from Rome were not and are a Church with valid Holy Orders. Both schisms and heresy are caused by the blinding power of sin and are egged on by the Devil, it is not a wish of God to see Christians disunity or the spreading of false doctrines about Christ, Scripture, the Virgin Mary or the Eucharist.

We disagree on the validity of this question. This is not the forum for that debate.

Nonetheless, you quoted a couple of Scriptures (below), which actually goes to show that Muslims are, in your own words through the verses you quote, “false prophets”, “scatter”, are “against Him”, are “accursed” (“anathema”), “as heathen”, because they deny the Gospel of the Kingdom of God - that the Father sent His Son - Jesus:

Matthew 24:11, 23-26

“And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray.”

“Then if any one says to you, Lo, here is the Christ!' or There he is!’ do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.”

Luke 11:23

He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathers not with me scatters.

Matthew 18:17

And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to you as the heathen and publican.

Galatians 1:9

As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema.

Acts 20:28-31
“take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the Church of God, . . . I know that, after my departure, ravening wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock.”

“He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.” (1 John 2:22). The god of the Muslims denies the Son. Therefore, He denies the Father also. Therefore, the god of the Muslims and the God of the Christians is not the same ‘person’. He is antichrist.

 

[gerhardc]

Martin Luther and the other Protestant reformers are heretics because they separated and urged others to separate from the Church Christ founded, not just that, they took out books from the Bible including changing some passages or omitting some out to fit their new theologies.

I cannot agree with all Martin Luther said and did. Yet, my understanding of what he did was to point people to the reading of the Scriptures instead of following man-made regulations. If in fact he changed passages out of the Bible, which I have to assume you are correct in stating, then Scripture itself prohibits that.

Getting back to the Muslims. These often kind and pleasant people intend to serve God. That is not to say they do serve the God of the Christians. Because the God of the Christians is Christ and they deny Jesus is that person in addition to denying that God has a Son. The god who Muslims serve does not have a son. Thus, he cannot be the same God that has a Son. The god of the Muslims and the God of the Christians is not the same ‘person’.

 

[Discipulo]

With great respect, (ordained) church leaders have changed their minds on several issues over the ages, …was the Spirit confused when they asked for answers or were church leaders not hearing right? Further, does a course in theology qualify us to hear the Spirit or does the Spirit Himself qualify us to hear Him? Does God reveal Himself only to those who have taken a course in theology?

On what THEOLOGICAL issue have Church leaders changed their minds on and not recieved a condemnation from the Pope? The Bishop of Rome and the Church Magisterium is the final authority of infallibility, I know this is hard to accept but you have to look at history to prove this, Check out the book Born Fundamentalist Born Again Catholic by David Currie, he provides a list of Bishops from the Apostolic Sees of Jerusalem, Antioch, Rome, Constantinople and Alexandria, all of these Sees but one had fallen into heresy, and that was the Episcopate of Rome while speaking Ex Cathedra.

1 John 2:27

Interesting enough here you are quoting on the practice of the Sacrament of confirmation in which those who have been anointed with the chrism recieve the Holy Spirit. And I believe this is what the Apostle John is referring to, not sure as my Bible does not say it, but I will ask my priest tomorrow when I meet with him.

But now He requires all men to repent’. The choice is yours - follow God through repentance or continue in the same way as before’. Scripture says that some believed and some did not. St. Paul did not water down who God is and what the requirements for serving Him are to please people.

Yes, but this is after he spread the Gospel to them, how can one judge salvation of a group of people without taking into account the Holy Spirit opening their hearts? I will give an example, I was once an atheistic Communist associated with the PCM(M-L) here, last year the Holy Spirit opened my heart to God’s will and I took the invitation, now had I rejected it I would have been committing the Sin Against the Holy Spirit, and committed grave sin, we do not know if the Greeks who rejected Paul were all enlightened by the Holy Spirit or not or they were but were willfully rejecting Him. We do not know this with Muslims, and as far as I know, a lot of Muslims are entirely ignorant of Christianity and the prophesy of Christ in all of the Old Testament. This is why those like Judas are much more at fault for betraying Christ than a Muslim who is entirely ignorant of Christ.

From the above, the Holy Spirit, through the Bible, says we can (and should) hear straight from Him. How can we relate to the Father if we cannot hear Him for ourselves?

Many claim to have guidance from the Holy Spirit, in fact all denominations claim to, all 60,000 of them. However, they each claim to be guided by the Spirit of Truth when interpreting scripture that contradicts each other. The Holy Spirit is not the origin of multiple truths.

I cannot agree with all Martin Luther said and did. Yet, my understanding of what he did was to point people to the reading of the Scriptures instead of following man-made regulations.

The foundations Martin Luther attacked were not just the corruption in the Church, but the authority of the Church, which he as a priest knew all about. Luther laid claim to One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church and claimed the Church he founded was that, but that is preposterous, prior to the 1500s all of Luther’s theological positions would have been deemed heresy by the Early Christians and Apostolic Fathers.

If in fact he changed passages out of the Bible, which I have to assume you are correct in stating, then Scripture itself prohibits that.

Luther’s new Bible canon is accepted by all Protestant groups as well as Non-Christians like the Mormons and Jehova’s Witnesses who are products of the post-Reformation splits.

Nonetheless, you quoted a couple of Scriptures (below), which actually goes to show that Muslims are, in your own words through the verses you quote, “false prophets”, “scatter”, are “against Him”, are “accursed” (“anathema”), “as heathen”, because they deny the Gospel of the Kingdom of God - that the Father sent His Son - Jesus:

These verses are targetted towards heretics of the time, and I have seen some use them for the Muslims, this does not mean Muslims do not worship the same God, as heretics are still Christians and worship the same Jesus, albeit an incomplete(or conscious rejection) view of Him, His teachings, and Church. That said like many heresies I believe Islam to be inspired by Satan and sin.

 

[gerhardc]

Ok, a whole lot of issues - some of which are detracting somewhat of the purpose of this thread. Let us guard against that. Thanks for your honest opinion, by the way.

On what THEOLOGICAL issue have Church leaders changed their minds on and not recieved a condemnation from the Pope? The Bishop of Rome and the Church Magisterium is the final authority of infallibility, I know this is hard to accept but you have to look at history to prove this

I believe you answer your own question here:

… Born Again Catholic by David Currie, he provides a list of Bishops from the Apostolic Sees of Jerusalem, Antioch, Rome, Constantinople and Alexandria, all of these Sees but one had fallen into heresy

Bishops falling into heresy and taking others with them, … Whether or not men or women have been rebuked by the Pope following their mis-teachings do not detract from the fact that they were fallible Church leaders who, by your own admission, served to* lead people away from the truth*. Accordingly, being a Church leader is no guarantee that anyone is a teacher of God’s truth. How then is it that you insist on not interpreting the Bible for yourself? How do you know that you are not being deceived right now - whether intentional or not?

The only way to know is to ask the Spirit for yourself. The notion that only some have the privilege of asking the Spirit for understanding seems contradictory to Biblical precedent which notes many people - learned and unlearned - having received the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost. Moreover, St. Paul prays that lay people may receive the spirit of wisdom and understanding in the knowledge of Him: “I do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power, …” (Ephesians 1:16-19).

It seems quite clear that all of us are intended to understand who God is and what His word says. St. Paul goes on to state: "… and that* from childhood *you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus" (2 Timothy 3:15). Even children can and should understand the Bible and how it applies to their salvation. Why are you disqualified from it?

Remember our obligation to ‘test all things and retain that which is good’. (refer 1 Thessalonians 5:21)

Interesting enough here you are quoting on the practice of the Sacrament of confirmation in which those who have been anointed with the chrism recieve the Holy Spirit. And I believe this is what the Apostle John is referring to, not sure as my Bible does not say it, but I will ask my priest tomorrow when I meet with him.

Respectfully, I believe you are mistaken. The passage speaks about all Christians’ need to be wise in seeing the antichrist at work, as is evidenced by the verses preceding verse 22 of 1 John:* “I write to you little children, … fathers, … young men”*.

Yes, but this is after he spread the Gospel to them, how can one judge salvation of a group of people without taking into account the Holy Spirit opening their hearts?

It is not up to us to question or challenge God’s sovereign will. See what He says in Romans 9: “You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?”

Some things about God’s judgement we simply do not understand. They don’t seem fair to us - imperfect, fallible humans. But that should not move us to deny His will: “But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God?”

Many claim to have guidance from the Holy Spirit, in fact all denominations claim to, all 60,000 of them. However, they each claim to be guided by the Spirit of Truth when interpreting scripture that contradicts each other. The Holy Spirit is not the origin of multiple truths.

The question as to what defines a denomination and what defines a church is beyond the premise of this discussion - lets debate that on another occasion.

The foundations Martin Luther attacked were not just the corruption in the Church, but the authority of the Church, which he as a priest knew all about.

No, the foundations Martin Luther attacked were the corruption in the Church under the authority of the Church, which he as a priest knew all about.

 

[Marcarios]

Heir Martin Luther for his part, was actually responding to what he precieved as heresy in his time, such as simony, the abuse of the sale of indulgences by Church Officals, and theological nominalism. Interesting that prior to Luther you have the Hussite Revolt, the Western Schism (Three Different men claiming to be Pope). Amateur apologists like to lay the blame at Luther’s feet for the breakup of the Latin Church but it had started even before Luther came along. Luther was just the nail in the coffin. Modern Apologists like to speak of the “catholicity” of the Roman Catholic Church in contrast to all other denominations, which on the surface is quite credible, however in regards to the theological nominalism that proceeded before Luther’s Revolt, we can see how in the West , there was a departure from the 'catholicity of Holy Tradition" such as the innovation of using pagan philosophy (Aristotle , Plato , Socrates) to intrepret the Faith as handed down by the Apostles. None of the Church Fathers in their writings talk about when and how the Eucharist becomes the Body and Blood of Christ, it isnt timed it isnt speculated , its a mystery. the speculations of the scholastics lead to the Reformation , because they broke with what the Apostles handed down as revealed Truth.

 

[MorningSong51]

Bishops falling into heresy and taking others with them, … Whether or not men or women have been rebuked by the Pope following their mis-teachings do not detract from the fact that they were fallible Church leaders who, by your own admission, served to* lead people away from the truth*. Accordingly, being a Church leader is no guarantee that anyone is a teacher of God’s truth. How then is it that you insist on not interpreting the Bible for yourself? How do you know that you are not being deceived right now - whether intentional or not?

There have been many leaders who have lead people astray, they are not in all in the Catholic Church. The members of our community, who had been strengthen by the teaching of the church, in general, were the ones who turned to a higher authority on those matters. It had taken much Christian courage to step up to the base and to put a stop to what was happening, as members of any congregation, outside of the church, had voiced an out rage toward their leaders.

Quotes of Mother Teresa:

“Yesterday is gone. Tomorrow has not yet come. We have only today. Let us begin.”

“Like Jesus we belong to the world living not for ourselves but for others. The joy of the Lord is our strength.”

“There is only one God and He is God to all; therefore it is important that everyone is seen as equal before God. I’ve always said we should help a Hindu become a better Hindu, a Muslim become a better Muslim, a Catholic become a better Catholic. We believe our work should be our example to people. We have among us 475 souls - 30 families are Catholics and the rest are all Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs—all different religions. But they all come to our prayers.”

“There are so many religions and each one has its different ways of following God. I follow Christ:
Jesus is my God,
Jesus is my Spouse,
Jesus is my Life,
Jesus is my only Love,
Jesus is my All in All;
Jesus is my Everything.”

Make us worthy, Lord, to serve those people throughout the world who live and die in poverty and hunger. Give them through our hands, this day, their daily bread, and by our understanding love, give them peace and joy. I heard the call to give up all and follow Christ into the slums to serve Him among the poorest of the poor. It was an order.
I was to leave the convent and help the poor while living among them.

When a poor person dies of hunger, it has not happened because God did not take care of him or her. It has happened because neither you nor I wanted to give that person what he or she needed. You and I, we are the Church, no? We have to share with our people. Suffering today is because people are hoarding, not giving, not sharing. Jesus made it very clear. Whatever you do to the least of my brethren, you do it to me. Give a glass of water, you give it to me. Receive a little child, you receive me.

Everybody today seems to be in such a terrible rush, anxious for greater developments and greater riches and so on, so that children have very little time for their parents. Parents have very little time for each other, and in the home begins the disruption of peace of the world.

ewtn.com/motherteresa/words.htm

Originally posted by Gerhardc:
How do you know that you are not being deceived right now - whether intentional or not?

It’s not based only by scriptural passages - when one feels that they might have been deceived - intentional or not. Sometimes being deceived in a religious way isn’t what’s written but what’s not being provided to others - the meat, good sources that is return to the receiver. Our faith is not based on good works however, it based on what we hear and listen, and do.

22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do. James 1

 

[Discipulo]

Accordingly, being a Church leader is no guarantee that anyone is a teacher of God’s truth.

The Church Magisterium and the Holy Father are guided by the Holy Spirit to be free from error, they are the only ones on Earth to have this infallibility and history proves it, not even the Apostolic Sees were protected from heresy but the Roman one was, if this were not true then how do you accept scripture as infallible? It is the Catholic Church which compiled the Canon of the Bible, if you accept its infallibility in scripture why not its final authority in interpreting it?

How do you know that you are not being deceived right now - whether intentional or not?

Because otherwise Jesus would have been a liar when he said Peter was the Rock in which he would build his Church and neither the gates of hell would prevail against it. Lies would have confused the faithful, but thanks to the guiding of the Holy Spirit through the Pope and the Magisterium this is not the case.

Respectfully, I believe you are mistaken. The passage speaks about all Christians’ need to be wise in seeing the antichrist at work, as is evidenced by the verses preceding verse 22 of 1 John: “I write to you little children, … fathers, … young men”.

To be honest, we both might be right, the Holy Spirit’s gift is recieved into a person during Confirmation, and the passage here talks about anointing.

The question as to what defines a denomination and what defines a church is beyond the premise of this discussion - lets debate that on another occasion.

A Church is a Diocese headed by a bishop, who is a direct successor of the Apostles, in a bigger sense it is these communion of Churches that form “The Church”, Christ gave these men, and these men alone power to ordain priests, deacons and other Bishops, the power to forgive sins and the power to bring Him body, blood, soul and divinity to every mass and divine liturgy service. Christ had many disciples but only 12 he granted special powers to.
The question is simple, how far can someone trace their Church? who founded it? There is only one Church founded by Jesus Christ who was he referring to when he told Peter on this Rock I will build my Church? Who was Paul referring to when he called the Church the Bride of Christ? Is Christ a polygamist? Can he have more than one Bride? What was the beliefs and practices of the earliest Christians? If one looks at each of these questions honestly, you will find that the answer is The Roman Catholic Church.

It is not up to us to question or challenge God’s sovereign will. See what He says in Romans 9: “You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?”

Some things about God’s judgement we simply do not understand. They don’t seem fair to us - imperfect, fallible humans. But that should not move us to deny His will: “But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God?”

My answer was not a question on about God’s judgement but a summary of the Catechism:
“Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation.” We do not know what is in a man’s heart, and it is why the Church refrains from saying who is in Hell, even being a Christian does not guarantee one salvation. This is the position of the Early Church Fathers by the way.

No, the foundations Martin Luther attacked were the corruption in the Church under the authority of the Church, which he as a priest knew all about.

Luther attacked Church authority by creating his own Church! claimed the Pope was the Anti-Christ and imparted the new doctrine of Sola Scriptura claiming that the Church which compiled the canon of the Bible was wrong, he accepted the Anti-Christian Jewish Council of Jamnia’s rejection of the Septuagint even though it was apart of the Church since the beginning and used by Jews for centuries as well as Christ.

 

[MorningSong51]

The only way to know is to ask the Spirit for yourself. The notion that only some have the privilege of asking the Spirit for understanding seems contradictory to Biblical precedent which notes many people - learned and unlearned - having received the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost. Moreover, St. Paul prays that lay people may receive the spirit of wisdom and understanding in the knowledge of Him: "I do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power, …" (Ephesians 1:16-19).

Then, reflecting on the account of Pentecost in Acts of the Apostles, the pontiff dwelt on its description of the Holy Spirit as a “storm”.

“Obviously St. Luke [the author of the Acts] was thinking of the theophany of Sinai, from the books of Exodus (19,16-19) and Deuteronomy (4,10-12.36). In the ancient world, the storm was seen as a sign of God’s divine power, before which man felt subjugated and terrified. But I wish to underline another aspect: the storm is descried as an “impetuous wind”, and this makes one think of air, which distinguishes our planet from the other stares and allows us to live upon it. What air is for biological life, the Holy Spirit is for spiritual life; and just as an atmospheric pollution exists that poisons the environment and living organisms, there is also a pollution of the heart and the spirit that mortifies and poisons spiritual existence. Whilst we must not become accustomed to the poisons of the air - and for this reason ecological engagement is a priority today – at the same time we should be alert to that which corrupts the spirit. Instead it seems that without any difficulty we have become used to the many polluting products of the heart and mind that circulate in today’s society – for example images that make a spectacle of pleasure, violence or debase men and women. This is freedom too, it is said, without recognising that all which pollutes intoxicates the soul particularly of the younger generations, ends up conditioning freedom itself. The metaphor of the impetuous wind of Pentecost instead makes us think of how precious a thing it is to breathe fresh air, both physically with our lungs, and spiritually with our heart, the healthy air of the spirit that is love!”.

Returning to the similtude of fire, Benedict XVI explained in depth the difference between the Greek hero Prometheus and Christ. Prometheus symbolizes modern man: “Having taken possession of the energy of the cosmos – the ‘fire’ – human beings today seem to affirm that they are god and want to change the world, excluding, putting to one side or even rejecting the Creator of the universe. Man no longer wants to be the image and likeness of God, but of himself; he declares himself autonomous, free, and adult”.

“In the hands of such a mankind –continued the pope – the ‘fire’ and its enormous potential becomes dangerous: it can turn against life and humanity itself, as history unfortunately has shown us. The tragedies of Hiroshima and Nagasaki remain a perennial warning, of how atomic energy, used for the purpose of war, ended up sowing death in previously unheard of proportions”.

Finally returning to the story of Pentecost (of the disciples, at first hiding in the Upper Room, then courageous proclaimers of the Gospel), Benedict XVI confirms that the Spirit “conquers fear”. “God’s Spirit – he concluded – wherever it enters, quashes fear; it helps us recognise and feel that we are in the hands of an Omnipotent love; whatever happens His infinite love will never abandon us. The witness of the martyrs shows us this, the courage of the confessors of faith, the intrepid zeal of the missionaries, the frank nature of the preachers, the example of all of the saints, some even adolescent and children. The very existence of the Church shows us this, which, despite the limits and fault of man, continues its journey on the oceans of history, blown onwards by the breath of God and animated by his purifying fire. With this faith and joyous hope we repeat today through the intercession of Mary: “Send your Spirit Oh Lord, and renew the face of the earth!”.

asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=15391&size=A

It seems quite clear that all of us are intended to understand who God is and what His word says. St. Paul goes on to state: "… and that* from childhood ***you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus" (2 Timothy 3:15). Even children can and should understand the Bible and how it applies to their salvation. Why are you disqualified from it?

Agreed - there are some religions (faiths) that at the age of 13 know the whole Torah quite well… however, it take a life time to understand the wisdom of it and I think that’s what Paul is saying in this quote, “which are able “to make” you wise for salvation” through faith.

There is an article - that says "it has been pointed out to me that no rational adult would make a business decision based on what they knew when they were 14. You wouldn’t decide who to marry based on what you knew about love and relationships when you were 14. But lots of us seem satisfied to dismiss religion based on what we learned at 14…
.aish.com/sp/so/48892702.html

 

[MorningSong51]

Remember our obligation to ‘test all things and retain that which is good’. (refer 1 Thessalonians 5:21)

1 Peter 4
Living for God

1 Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because whoever suffers in the body is done with sin. 2 As a result, they do not live the rest of their earthly lives for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God. 3 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. 4 They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you. 5 But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

7 The end of all things is near. Therefore be alert and of sober mind so that you may pray. 8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. 9 Offer hospitality to one another without grumbling. 10 Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others, as faithful stewards of God’s grace in its various forms. 11 If anyone speaks, they should do so as one who speaks the very words of God. If anyone serves, they should do so with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. To him be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[schaick]

God’s plan for muslims is the same plan for everyone really. His plan for salvation is His Son, Jesus Christ.

Allah the god of Islam denies the crucifixion.

 

[MorningSong51]

Allah the god of Islam denies the crucifixion.

How do you know what Allah denies - have you asked him? Again, the word Allah is just the Arabic word for God - accordingly, Allah is the same word used by Christian Arabs and Jewish in Arabia. newadvent.org/cathen/01316a.htm

It is interesting though about the ascension of Jesus - and what was said, and even when it came to Moses and the prophets, in passages of the Night Journey (Isra and Mi’raj - It has been described as both a physical and spiritual journey). In the New Testament, and reading about the transfiguration, Moses appeared with Elijah on the mountain before Jesus and his 3 apostles, James, John and Peter. So the question, did Moses ascend into heaven after his death? It’s not hard to imagine - that they do think that Jesus was raised and ascended into Heaven…

 

[Marybeloved]

Ok, a whole lot of issues - some of which are detracting somewhat of the purpose of this thread. Let us guard against that. Thanks for your honest opinion, by the way.

I

Bishops falling into heresy and taking others with them, … Whether or not men or women have been rebuked by the Pope following their mis-teachings do not detract from the fact that they were fallible Church leaders who, by your own admission, served to* lead people away from the truth*. Accordingly, being a Church leader is no guarantee that anyone is a teacher of God’s truth. How then is it that you insist on not interpreting the Bible for yourself? How do you know that you are not being deceived right now - whether intentional or not?

Infallibility belongs to the body of Christ together in union, not with individual bishops who separate from the body by teaching error. And why stop at “reading the bible for yourself?”- You don’t even know that it is scripture!! After all, all these corrupt fallible people picked those books centuries ago from among many and called them the new testament…How could you possibly trust them? :shrug:Better go the Dan Brown route and throw it all out the window, sort through all the ancient documents yourself and let The Holy Spirit guide you to the true scriptures, eh? Except, how would you even know there* is* a holy spirit? It could all be a lie that the true scriptures don’t even have!! How could we be sure that the ancient church of so many corrupt fallible people did not deliberately distort everything, including the content of the books! Maybe the Muslims are right after all! Who knows, perhaps Jesus did dictate a book that the evil church distorted, as the Muslims claim. After all, having thrown out the authority of the church to decide what constitutes scripture, and having removed her protection from lies and errors in her decisions about faith…How can we even know anything at all.

And I agree…This is better taken to another thread to avoid getting this one shut down unnecessarily. Peace.

 

[Marybeloved]

Heir Martin Luther for his part, was actually responding to what he precieved as heresy in his time, such as simony, the abuse of the sale of indulgences by Church Officals, and theological nominalism. Interesting that prior to Luther you have the Hussite Revolt, the Western Schism (Three Different men claiming to be Pope). Amateur apologists like to lay the blame at Luther’s feet for the breakup of the Latin Church but it had started even before Luther came along. Luther was just the nail in the coffin. Modern Apologists like to speak of the “catholicity” of the Roman Catholic Church in contrast to all other denominations, which on the surface is quite credible, however in regards to the theological nominalism that proceeded before Luther’s Revolt, we can see how in the West , there was a departure from the 'catholicity of Holy Tradition" such as the innovation of using pagan philosophy (Aristotle , Plato , Socrates) to intrepret the Faith as handed down by the Apostles. None of the Church Fathers in their writings talk about when and how the Eucharist becomes the Body and Blood of Christ, it isnt timed it isnt speculated , its a mystery. the speculations of the scholastics lead to the Reformation , because they broke with what the Apostles handed down as revealed Truth.

What exactly do the Greek philosophers have to do with the Holy Eucharist? And how does the doctrine of transubstantiation take away from its mystery? Could you please point to a church teaching that describes “how” exactly the bread and wine become Christ? Thanks.