Do Coptic Catholics have female Deacons?

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I know the Oriental Orthodox still have female Deacons in their churches. Do the Catholic communions from those Oriental rites (the Copts, Ge’ez Rite, Chaldeans(?) etc.) also have female Deacons, and if so, how do they square this with Catholic statements that there were never truly female Deacons in the Church?
 
I don’t know if Coptic Catholics have any women in positions they commonly refer to as “deacons,” but I would be very surpised if they did, seeing as the Catechism of the Catholic Church states simply that “Holy Orders can only be conferred on baptized males.” It does not say that this only applies to the 2 higher Orders, Priesthood and Episcopate, it just says “Holy Orders,” period. This would of course include the lower Order of Diaconate.

Also, I’m pretty sure that the Orthodox likewise do not have any “deaconesses” or any such thing. From what I understand, there is some speculation from historical evidence that there might have been female “deacons” in the early Church in the East.

However, even concerning this evidence, there is counter-evidence that though these women were referred to as “deaconesses” and were installed as such in “ordination” ceremonies, they were not considered by the Church to have received a sacrament constituting an ontological change in their being (an “indelible mark on the soul”), which is what a deacon, priest or bishop receives at his ordination. Rather, it was a mere “functional” ordination, somewhat like ordaining a man as a subdeacon, to make a rough comparison.
 
Going along with what CollegeKid said, a deaconess was often the title given to the wife of a deacon.

In Christ,
Rand
 
A deaconess was never a female deacon. A deaconess had a role that was different from that of a deacon.

It seems some misunderstand this as the term “deaconess” appears to be the female form of the term “deacon” which it is not.
 
A deaconess was never a female deacon. A deaconess had a role that was different from that of a deacon.

**I would refer you to this site:

anastasis.org.uk/woman_deacon.htm

Notice how the ordination of a male and female deacon is exctly parallel:
  1. The opening prayer is the same.
  2. It takes place at the same point in the Liturgy.
  3. The Deaconness is vested with the Orarion.
  4. The same word CHRIOTONIA is used as for the other major orders (as opposed to CHEIROTHESIA for the minor orders.**
 
Modern Coptic deaconesses are celibate women who live in community and serve the community at large (as opposed to nuns who serve the community through prayer and remain in their monastery - some in one place for a lifetime after entrance.)

weekly.ahram.org.eg/2000/479/spec1.htm

Basically, the Coptic deaconesses we see today, far from being a woman who vests and has a liturgical function, is pretty comparable to Catholic religious sisters who teach, nurse, work with the poor, etc.
 
bpbasilphx said:
A deaconess was never a female deacon. A deaconess had a role that was different from that of a deacon.

**I would refer you to this site:

anastasis.org.uk/woman_deacon.htm**

Notice how the ordination of a male and female deacon is exctly parallel:
  1. The opening prayer is the same.
  2. It takes place at the same point in the Liturgy.
  3. The Deaconness is vested with the Orarion.
  4. The same word CHRIOTONIA is used as for the other major orders (as opposed to CHEIROTHESIA for the minor orders.
Click to expand...
From there the question becomes, why did it disappear? The words were the same or similar, but were they understood in the same light?
 
bpbasilphx said:
A deaconess was never a female deacon. A deaconess had a role that was different from that of a deacon.

**I would refer you to this site:

anastasis.org.uk/woman_deacon.htm**

Notice how the ordination of a male and female deacon is exctly parallel:
  1. The opening prayer is the same.
  2. It takes place at the same point in the Liturgy.
  3. The Deaconness is vested with the Orarion.
  4. The same word CHRIOTONIA is used as for the other major orders (as opposed to CHEIROTHESIA for the minor orders.
Click to expand...
I refer you to what I actually said rather than what you think I said.

I will try again. I said a deaconess was not a female deacon and served a role different from that of a deacon.

How did you read that I said the “ordination” of a deaconess was different from that of a deacon? And while this exists there is still some discussion if the “ordination” of a deaconess was truly an ordination or not.
 
I read somewhere that although the Church has spoken when it comes to the ordination of women to the priesthood, the idea of “restoring” the female diaconate is still under investigation. Does anybody have info on this?
 
ASimpleSinner said:
Modern Coptic deaconesses are celibate women who live in community and serve the community at large (as opposed to nuns who serve the community through prayer and remain in their monastery - some in one place for a lifetime after entrance.)

weekly.ahram.org.eg/2000/479/spec1.htm

Basically, the Coptic deaconesses we see today, far from being a woman who vests and has a liturgical function, is pretty comparable to Catholic religious sisters who teach, nurse, work with the poor, etc.
Click to expand...
In other (Latin) words:

Coptic nuns = contemplative sisters
Coptic deaconesses = active sisters

Peace and God bless!
 
BennyBoy89 said:
I read somewhere that although the Church has spoken when it comes to the ordination of women to the priesthood, the idea of “restoring” the female diaconate is still under investigation. Does anybody have info on this?
Click to expand...
Its not a “female diaconate”. The deaconess is not part of the Sacrament of Holy Orders. A deacon is part of the Sacrament of Holy Orders. Deaconess was a ministry for women by women in the early church when it was not considered acceptable for men to interact with women in public.
 
Formosus said:
Its not a “female diaconate”. The deaconess is not part of the Sacrament of Holy Orders. A deacon is part of the Sacrament of Holy Orders. Deaconess was a ministry for women by women in the early church when it was not considered acceptable for men to interact with women in public.
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That would make sense. I don’t in any way support the idea of “ordaining” women (which is one of the reasons I became Catholic as opposed to Anglican), but I just wanted to get my facts straight.

Know thy enemy. 😃
 
BennyBoy89 said:
That would make sense. I don’t in any way support the idea of “ordaining” women (which is one of the reasons I became Catholic as opposed to Anglican), but I just wanted to get my facts straight.

Know thy enemy. 😃
Click to expand...
Hey a Toledoan! My old stompin grounds! How are things in the Glass City?
 
ASimpleSinner said:
Hey a Toledoan! My old stompin grounds! How are things in the Glass City?
Click to expand...
Couldn’t tell ya haha. I’m actually a member of St. Mary’s Parish in Sandusky next door to Cedar Point, although I’ve made it out to the Cathedral twice so far this year. 😃

As far as the Diocese is concerned, a bit progressive, although we don’t have any female deacons yet. 😛
 
Also, I’m pretty sure that the Orthodox likewise do not have any “deaconesses” or any such thing. From what I understand, there is some speculation from historical evidence that there might have been female “deacons” in the early Church in the East.
Click to expand...
The Greek Orthodox synod recently voted ('05?) to restore the order of deaconness, making use of an early set of rubrics for their ordination.
 
bpbasilphx said:
**I would refer you to this site:

anastasis.org.uk/woman_deacon.htm**

Notice how the ordination of a male and female deacon is exctly parallel:
  1. The opening prayer is the same.
  2. It takes place at the same point in the Liturgy.
  3. The Deaconness is vested with the Orarion.
  4. The same word CHRIOTONIA is used as for the other major orders (as opposed to CHEIROTHESIA for the minor orders.
Click to expand...
Thank you for bringing up anastasis.org.uk.

Yes, the opening prayer is the same.

Yes, it takes place at the same point in the ceremony.

Yes, the deaconess is vested with the Orarion.

Yes, the same word CHRIOTONIA is used.

But, there is one key difference which is generally overlooked: the prayer of consecration. The prayer differs between males and females. Male deacons are consecrated “to become ministers and to assist in the service of your most pure Mysteries” while female deaconesses are consecrated “to the work of your service”.

You’ll find the two prayers on Anastasis.

It took me a while to figure that diffference in the Order for Ordination. Its important for all Catholic apologists to know as the Roman Catholic Womenpriests like to tout the existance of a rite of ordination for women deacons as part of their supporting ‘evidence’. The RCWP just seem to omit that there is a critical difference as to what women deaconesses were/are ordained to do (service) as opposed to what male deacons are ordained to do (ministers and assist in the Mysteries). I wrote a blog post on the critical difference in the two ceremonies.

God bless…
 
bighodag said:
Thank you for bringing up anastasis.org.uk.

Yes, the opening prayer is the same.

Yes, it takes place at the same point in the ceremony.

Yes, the deaconess is vested with the Orarion.

Yes, the same word CHRIOTONIA is used.

But, there is one key difference which is generally overlooked: the prayer of consecration. The prayer differs between males and females. Male deacons are consecrated “to become ministers and to assist in the service of your most pure Mysteries” while female deaconesses are consecrated “to the work of your service”.

You’ll find the two prayers on Anastasis.

It took me a while to figure that diffference in the Order for Ordination. Its important for all Catholic apologists to know as the Roman Catholic Womenpriests like to tout the existance of a rite of ordination for women deacons as part of their supporting ‘evidence’. The RCWP just seem to omit that there is a critical difference as to what women deaconesses were/are ordained to do (service) as opposed to what male deacons are ordained to do (ministers and assist in the Mysteries). I wrote a blog post on the critical difference in the two ceremonies.

God bless…
Click to expand...
👍

Nice job. This seems to clear up any questions people may have, and it certainly aided in my understanding.

Long before I was Catholic, I supported the ordination of women. I thought Mary Magdalene could’ve been the wife of Our Lord too but whatever I was nuts. 😃 History and common sense always tend to support the teachings of the Church.
 
Servus_Pio_XII said:
The Greek Orthodox synod recently voted ('05?) to restore the order of deaconness, making use of an early set of rubrics for their ordination.
Click to expand...
Keep doing research on how that is going, what prompted it, and the process of deliberation that surrounded all that…

I think you will find that the plans have been put on the backburner with even the pilot light extinguished. If that goes anywhere soon, I will eat my hat.
 
BennyBoy89 said:
Couldn’t tell ya haha. I’m actually a member of St. Mary’s Parish in Sandusky next door to Cedar Point, although I’ve made it out to the Cathedral twice so far this year. 😃

As far as the Diocese is concerned, a bit progressive, although we don’t have any female deacons yet. 😛
Click to expand...
What the DoT does have - more than I ever knew or saw growing up - is a bumper crop of young, apple cheeked all-American seminarians… Things are looking up in the Glass City.
 
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