Do Crosses at Catholic University Violate Muslim Human Rights?

[Ridgerunner]

No, it’s that the information presented is too thin for anyone to draw the conclusion that he is the only one involved. And it’s not all that strange to question it, given some of the other events of which virtually everyone is aware, and that the lawyer surely knows he is going to have to have some kind of complaining witnesses who claim to be affected.

I was, for a more limited example, made aware of a demand made by Muslims in a factory in this region that the company create them an on-premises worship place and allow all Muslims to take breaks at the same time to pray there as a group. The company refused to do it, so they filed discrimination complaints which, as far as I know, are still pending.

So, is it the law professor alone? Or is it another group “push” like the one I just mentioned? We don’t know. We only know that a Catholic university is being subjected to a complaint that it should be required to provide exclusive worship places for Muslims. We also know that one student alone has asserted that this action does not represent the view of all or the majority of Muslim students at CU. We also know from the article that one administrator asserted that the Muslim students are “pawns” in the effort. We don’t know why they are “pawns” or how many or “pawns” or what it even means in that context to be a “pawn”. Does he mean “complaining witness”? We don’t know.

But what we do know is that one cannot conclude, from the article alone, that this law professor is alone in this effort. We also know that the context of the times does not lend itself to a ready assumption that this one student has anything at all upon which to base his expressed opinion.

 

[peace2u2]

Next they will be telling us that we are not allowed to wear a cross or a crucifix around our necks! Pray The Rosary for the conversion of souls that the truth of Jesus Christ be revealed to them. Blessed be the Precious Name of Jesus. Amen!

 

[JonNC]

Next they will be telling us that we are not allowed to wear a cross or a crucifix around our necks! Pray The Rosary for the conversion of souls that the truth of Jesus Christ be revealed to them. Blessed be the Precious Name of Jesus. Amen!

Ask your local public school teacher if they are permitted to. It has been said that children do not check their constitutional rights at the school house door. The same cannot always be said for teachers.

Jon

 

[Leegal]

Leegal, from your post, you appear to be somewhat confused about what freedom of religion actually entails. Freedom of religion is a guarantee that the GOVERNMENT will not establish a state religion or force us to renounce the religion of our choice. The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment states that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

This does not by any means establish that a legal duty on the part of private, religiously-affiliated institutions to provide the necessary resources for worship to members of a different religion. I really don’t know where you are getting this idea from. It seems to me that you are confusing a negative right (freedom of religion as freedom from interference, as it is generally understood) with a positive right (freedom of religion as something that imposes duties on others to give me the resources I need to practice my religion, which would be a strange and heterodox interpretation of freedom of religion).

I understand that it means that “Congress shall make no law, etc.” – and that means that government cannot establish a state-sponsored religion or advance one religion in favor of another or unnecessarily entangle itself in religion. It’s freedom “to”, as interpreted, not freedom “from.” Freedom to worship – not freedom from not having me see Muslims worship. A positive freedom.

The school, CU, accepts direct federal aid. That was covered earlier in the thread. Although private and religious – once they accept federal aid they subject themselves to government interference and law (Constitution, case law).

As I said before, once they accepted applications from other faiths (Jews attend because of the programs), they opened the door to this possibility. Further the First Amenment is imposed upon the localities by virtue of the 14th Amend. even if this is not yet a federal issue. Local governments must follow the First Amend. via the duty imposed upon them by the 14th.

Remember, I said I there may be another agenda. But my suspicions are not enough. The course, to avoid endless litigation at great cost; I do not believe they would win though), would be to provide the room and figure out 1) who or what is driving this and 2) whether to not this is the beginning of increasingly burdensome requests.

 

[Leegal]

The university is not “forcing” them to do anything. It is allowing them to use a chapel for their worship services; something it has no obligation whatever to do. Why does anybody think any university is obligated to provide worship facilities for any religion? Did SMU build a chapel for Catholics? No. Did Baylor? No. Did Brigham Young? No. Did the University of Missouri? No. The Muslim students are free to find a place near the campus where they can conduct their own services, just as Catholics and others do all over the U.S.

They or someone asked for a room for worship. They were only provided a Catholic Chapel – thereby “forcing” them to use the Chapel in the absence of a room. Now, I would never agree that the Chapel as CU should be removed of all religious symbols to accomodate another religion – NEVER. But, as a Catholic it would be unacceptable to me to have to worship in another house of worship – one designated as such. I would not feel right praying in the house of worship that belongs to another faith – even praying only as a Catholic and not participating in that other faith’s worship.

They want a room so let’s give them an empty room – not a Mosque or their own “Chapel” if they would call it that. A room that has no crosses.

The courts would weigh the burden of finding one room in a University. Not much of a burden.

 

[Ryan_Love]

As fare as I am concerned, A Muslims student should not have enrolled in a Catholic or any Christians school in the first place. If a Christian was to try this in the Middle East, that person would be killed as dictated by Sharia law.

“Quotes from the Qur'an”

Sura 4:89 “seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”

Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush. (Sura 9:5).

 

[Ryan_Love]

As a Jewish/Christan. I have the freedom to pray wherever I wish. It is a sin for any church to allow somebody to Desecrate gods temple though, and even help them do it is far greater… As far as I am concerned, God knows which god you are praying to ,so it no sin to pray in a room dedicated to an idol, but it is a sin to take down gods things, so an idol worshiper can pray to his god in your holy church. If the catholic church did not allow Muslims studentsto enroll, the media would still complain. This is totally stupid.

 

[John_Paul_Jones]

They want a room so let’s give them an empty room – not a Mosque or their own “Chapel” if they would call it that. A room that has no crosses.

Why no cross? That makes absolutely no sense at all, if you invited a friend over your house and they didn’t like your family photos would you take them down to suit him? The crucifix is not there to invoke an offensive to anyone. I would not give them an empty room, because once a mosque aways a mosque.

 

[punisherthunder]

Try putting up a cross at a Muslim university and see what happens. Better yet a Star of David. See how well that would go over.

 

[schaick]

As a Jewish/Christan. I have the freedom to pray wherever I wish. It is a sin for any church to allow somebody to Desecrate gods temple though, and even help them do it is far greater… As far as I am concerned, God knows which god you are praying to ,so it no sin to pray in a room dedicated to an idol, but it is a sin to take down gods things, so an idol worshiper can pray to his god in your holy church. If the catholic church did not allow Muslims studentsto enroll, the media would still complain. This is totally stupid.

I like your answer!!

 

[sedonaman]

They or someone asked for a room for worship.

See my prior post, #65.

They want a room so let’s give them an empty room – not a Mosque or their own “Chapel” if they would call it that. A room that has no crosses.

Are other non-Catholic students [e/g., Jews, etc.] given special rooms? If not, why are Muslims to be treated differently?

The courts would weigh the burden of finding one room in a University. Not much of a burden.

I disagree. The courts are not in business to assuage every hurt feeling. If they are, I have enough to tie them up until the Second Coming.

 

[Leegal]

See my prior post, #65.

Are other non-Catholic students [e/g., Jews, etc.] given special rooms? If not, why are Muslims to be treated differently?

I disagree. The courts are not in business to assuage every hurt feeling. If they are, I have enough to tie them up until the Second Coming.

** A. No, I believe they are not provided with any special rooms. Nor do I believe they have asked for a room. As to treating Muslims differently, see my comment below.**

** B. True that the courts are not there to heal every hurt, but if the issue goes to court, the courts may use a “balancing” test to see how much of a burden the request imposes on CU.**

I honestly believe there’s a hidden agenda to this seemingly simple request. If I have not made that clear, then this should tell you that I don’t think it stops here. I think that providing them an empty room will bring it to the surface. I would want to know that.

However, I’m trying to think ahead to what happens if this should become the subject of a suit because I don’t think a judge will throw the suit out.

 

[Leegal]

See my prior post, #65.

I went back to find your post. I see that there’s a Mosque within walking distance. The CU authorities can point them in that direction and see what happens next, before attempting to locate an empty room on campus. Since it appears that someone else is behind this request, I believe reminding them that there’s a Mosque within walking distance will not end the issue. What comes next is the complaint that they have to pray 5 times a day, thereby missing classes due to the constant having to walk .08 miles each way up to 10 times depending on where they live now too.

But, I know that there’s more to this and it won’t stop with that.

I have to go back and check and see if the wanted the room for prayer or for isolation.

 

[Leegal]

Examples: [1] Have you ever noticed that whenever a paramedic team is called, the fire department arrives also even though there is no fire? It’s to add one more response to their numbers.

Except that in NYC, the EMS/paramedic services are FDNY. It was a separate agency until around 1996 or so, but EMS did not have parity with the other uniformed services. Once rolled into FDNY, the firefighters were required to take the same EMS/paramedic courses, along with their other training. Now, it’s all one agency in NY.

 

[Leegal]

Okay Sedonaman, I will concede to you on this one as I did go back and re-read the article. The article suggests that they are also offended by the Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception.

That, of course, defies argument in favor of their objection. Since we have a similar controversy here in NYC and the building of a Mosque/Center right near Ground Zero, their own argument against moving their Mosque from Ground Zero can be used against them. Afterall, we are not going to move a Basilica now too.

I was wrong.

 

[sedonaman]

…
I honestly believe there’s a hidden agenda to this seemingly simple request. If I have not made that clear, then this should tell you that I don’t think it stops here. I think that providing them an empty room will bring it to the surface. I would want to know that.

A hidden agenda is a definite possibility. In that case, it won’t stop, which is why they shouldn’t allow the head of the camel in the tent, so to speak.

However, I’m trying to think ahead to what happens if this should become the subject of a suit because I don’t think a judge will throw the suit out.

Having been a defendant in one, I have my own thoughts on frivolous lawsuits. They are a form of extortion and should be fought to the bitter end all the way to the top no matter the legal cost. An institution like a university that can spend millions of dollars on a diversity machine can afford to fight such a lawsuit. This sends a signal to malicious litigants that the fight will be long and expensive.

 

[sedonaman]

…Afterall, we are not going to move a Basilica now too.

I was wrong.

Maybe not. If the school gives in to the prayer rooms, next they’ll be asking for the Basilica to be dynamited. There is a lawsuit in progress in which a Muslim public school teacher is suing for an unreasonable amount of vacation time to make a pilgrimage. Extortion never ends.

 

[simspt]

Kind of unbelievable that the U.S. Government’s Office of Human Rights says it has to spend 6 months investigating this.

radio.foxnews.com//toddstarnes/top-stories/muslims-want-catholic-school-to-provide-room-without-crosses.html

cuatower.com/news/2011/10/20/university-accused-of-discriminating-against-muslims/

In fairness, this sounds like something that is being pursued by a non-Muslim, radically anti-Catholic law professor as well as Muslim students.

How far should an officially Catholic university go in accomodating the wishes of other religions?

Yet another example of the depravity of the law profession. I have a hard time thinking of any other profession filled with so many imbeciles.

 

[sedonaman]

Kind of unbelievable that the U.S. Government’s Office of Human Rights says it has to spend 6 months investigating this. …

They have to justify their jobs.