An eternity of knowing their purpose and knowing they cannot fulfill it.
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TheOldColonel
Guest
Indeed. It is a terrifying thought, an eternal existence antithetical to one’s innate nature and to the imago dei.
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Dan_Defender
Guest
And that’s not what I said. God does allow them to test the saints at times, so they are useful for that. God is always in control.
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TheLittleLady
Guest
Chapter and verse or Catechism or other doctrinal statement that contradicts James chapter 1? :
12g Blessed is the man who perseveres in temptation,* for when he has been proved he will receive the crown of life that he promised to those who love him.13* No one experiencing temptation should say, “I am being tempted by God”; for God is not subject to temptation to evil, and he himself tempts no one.h14Rather, each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.15Then desire conceives and brings forth sin, and when sin reaches maturity it gives birth to death.
16* Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers:17all good giving and every perfect gift* is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no alteration or shadow caused by change.18i He willed to give us birth by the word of truth that we may be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.*
12g Blessed is the man who perseveres in temptation,* for when he has been proved he will receive the crown of life that he promised to those who love him.13* No one experiencing temptation should say, “I am being tempted by God”; for God is not subject to temptation to evil, and he himself tempts no one.h14Rather, each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.15Then desire conceives and brings forth sin, and when sin reaches maturity it gives birth to death.
16* Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers:17all good giving and every perfect gift* is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no alteration or shadow caused by change.18i He willed to give us birth by the word of truth that we may be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.*
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Start
Guest
They already condemned themselves and are unable to receive salvation because of their obstinacy.
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Mboo
Guest
of course yes. Read Job’s book, it’s very obvious. God allows the devil to tempt Job, and God Himself sets the limits of the temptations that the devil was going to make to Job. He says to Job “withdraw all his fortune from him, but do not touch his body …” (or something in that sense)
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Mboo
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this passage from James says that it is not God Himself who executes temptations, but several other passages confirm that it is God who allows temptations
So God Himself controls the temptations we suffer, not allowing them to exceed our strengths.
So it is God who allows temptations (of the devil) and the book of Job confirms it as I said above.
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TK421
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It is a little bit nuanced.
Demons have zero love for God and nothing they do is good because God always looks at the intention of the heart. If a person has evil motives but they happen to do something that results in good, they are still committing sin.
But yes, tradition tells us that God redirects everything towards his purposes and even the temptations and wickedness of demons and evil people ends up sanctifying the Church and people that place their trust in God.
Dante’s Inferno is a literary work, not a mystical one. Hell is the opposite of Heaven in every conceivable way, so yes, everybody there hates each other and their presence is a cause for each other’s suffering. God permits them to be an occasion for each other’s misery because their state is something that was mutually freely chosen.
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TheLittleLady
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“Allows” and “uses” are two very different things.
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TheLittleLady
Guest
Yes, God allows things. That is very different than saying “demon #78,464,086B, go tempt Charley for me today”.
Also, we would do best to use Catholic translations of Scripture, and the full context:
No trial has come to you but what is human. God is faithful and will not let you be tried beyond your strength; but with the trial he will also provide a way out, so that you may be able to bear it.j
We are tried. Some temptations come from our own desires (James chapter 1), and we know that the demons roam the world seeking to tempt people to sin. When we are tempted to sin, God always provides a way for us not to sin.
This is why we are certain that there is never a situation where one’s only option is to sin, thanks be to God.
Still this does not mean that God is the author of the temptation. He permits, He does not orchestrate.
Also, we would do best to use Catholic translations of Scripture, and the full context:
No trial has come to you but what is human. God is faithful and will not let you be tried beyond your strength; but with the trial he will also provide a way out, so that you may be able to bear it.j
We are tried. Some temptations come from our own desires (James chapter 1), and we know that the demons roam the world seeking to tempt people to sin. When we are tempted to sin, God always provides a way for us not to sin.
This is why we are certain that there is never a situation where one’s only option is to sin, thanks be to God.
Still this does not mean that God is the author of the temptation. He permits, He does not orchestrate.
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Mboo
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When you have authority and you do not want something, you do not allow it. So if God allows the devil to tempt us, it’s because he wants us to be tempted. The difference is that it’s not God who’s doing it himself, the devil doing what God wants, because if God did not want it, He was going to stop the devil from tempting us
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clarkgamble1
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Actually Dante’s “Inferno,” is mostly responsible for today’s traditional Catholic vision of Hell. Dante had a vivid and sick imagination which has caused terror in the minds of millions to this day. Dante didn’t express the Catholic vision of Hell, he invented it.
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Vico
Guest
God would have us do good, those that are condemned do evil to one and to all. Consider:
- John 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you will do.
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TheOldColonel
Guest
So, do I understand correctly that you are making a moral distinction between willing an act and doing the same act yourself? Does that make it a moral matter only for the doer and not the one willing it?
I seem to recall such reasoning being used in the Scripture…
Matthew 27:1-6
1 When it was morning, all the chief priests and the elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death. 2 They bound him, led him away, and handed him over to Pilate, the governor. 3 Then Judas, his betrayer, seeing that Jesus had been condemned, deeply regretted what he had done. He returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders 4 saying, “I have sinned in betraying innocent blood.” They said, “What is that to us? Look to it yourself.”5 Flinging the money into the temple, he departed and went off and hanged himself. 6 The chief priests gathered up the money, but said, “It is not lawful to deposit this in the temple treasury, for it is the price of blood.”
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Mboo
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The difference between the will of the devil and the will of God is not in the object but in the intention
The devil wants to tempt us with the intention of making us fall into Hell. God wants us to be tempted with the intention to make us gaining merit. But both want us to be tempted.
The devil wants to tempt us with the intention of making us fall into Hell. God wants us to be tempted with the intention to make us gaining merit. But both want us to be tempted.
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ProdglArchitect
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God does not want us to be tempted, but He does allow it. God cannot will evil.
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Mboo
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it’s a problem of logic, when we do not want something, we do not allow it. So God wants us to be tempted.
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Elkcreek
Guest
Guess you missed the whole free will thing and why God made it that way. God sticks to his acts, we don’t. You either get that or you don’t. The fallen chose to rebel and therefore hate God and all that is good. Sure God could force it out of them but that is not what he intended. It was not God’s choice. Hard to grasp.
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Mboo
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to be tempted is not an evil in itself, because it allows us to gain merits
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TheOldColonel
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Then why does Jesus, God in the flesh, tell us to pray not to be tempted? Would he ask us to pray for something that is against God’s will since, as you say, “God wants us to be tempted”?
It’s a rather puzzling line of reasoning you have going on in your head.
“Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us; and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.”
Furthermore, would God,as you claim, intentionally bring us into the near occasion of sin? Here’s what we find in Church teaching…
(Excerpts from the Baltimore Catechism)
Q. 771. What do you mean by the near occasions of sin?
A. By the near occasions of sin I mean all the persons, places and things that may easily lead us into sin.
Q. 772. Why are we bound to avoid occasions of sin?
A. We are bound to avoid occasions of sin because Our Lord has said: “He who loves the danger will perish in it”; and as we are bound to avoid the loss of our souls, so we are bound to avoid the danger of their loss. The occasion is the cause of sin, and you cannot take away the evil without removing its cause.
Q. 773. Is a person who is determined to avoid the sin, but who is unwilling to give up its near occasion when it is possible to do so, rightly disposed for confession?
A. A person who is determined to avoid the sin, but who is unwilling to give up its near occasion when it is possible to do so, is not rightly disposed for confession, and he will not be absolved if he makes known to the priest the true state of his conscience.
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