Do Eastern Catholics Believe in Mortal and Venial Sin?

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Well put JMJ, and I’ll add, that quite often what you hear about Eastern Catholic beliefs online is often very different from what you’ll find in many Eastern Catholic Churches. It’s so common to hear people on forums claiming that Eastern Catholics do not believe in the Immaculate Conception, Papal Infallibility, Mortal Sin, Purgatory, etc, or that they do not use kneelers or confessionals or even that they see Sacred Heart devotions, Stations of the Crosses, and a statue or two, as alien to the Eastern form of worship. In reality quite a large number of Eastern Catholics have no problem accepting any of the former.
 
Well put JMJ, and I’ll add, that quite often what you hear about Eastern Catholic beliefs online is often very different from what you’ll find in many Eastern Catholic Churches. It’s so common to hear people on forums claiming that Eastern Catholics do not believe in the Immaculate Conception, Papal Infallibility, Mortal Sin, Purgatory, etc, or that they do not use kneelers or confessionals or even that they see Sacred Heart devotions, Stations of the Crosses, and a statue or two, as alien to the Eastern form of worship. In reality quite a large number of Eastern Catholics have no problem accepting any of the former.
It depends on which of the Eastern Rites you’re talking about, though. The Romanian Catholic mission parish which shares our church building uses Latin hymns and devotions, because that is a legitimate part of their Romanian heritage (in fact, the Romanian language is actually very similar to Latin).

However, a Russian Catholic parish would be far less likely to use or subscribe to those devotions or beliefs, because in Russia the dominant churches are Orthodox and the Russian Catholic rite tends to mirror Orthodoxy much more closely. There are, of course, exceptions to prove every rule, but you’d be way less likely to find devotion to the Sacred Heart or Stations of the Cross there.
 
Actually no, St. Thomas could not have denied the Immaculate Conception because it was already a held belief at the time. Thats my point. The Eastern belief on Mary, for example, already says that she is immaculate and pure from conception to dormition, a virgin for all eternity. So what does the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception change or oppose to what we already believe? The Immaculate Conception did not introduce anything new, so St. Thomas could not have denied it. At most is that he would have a different way of defining it, which is what the East has. But to hold a belief that Mary is tainted by sin would have been heretical even during his time. If you believe that St. Thomas could have actively denied the Immaculate Conception in a way that he can believe that Mary was tainted by sin, then it proves that the Immaculate Conception is a new belief defined only in recent times. And that by itself shows its heretical since we cannot add anything new to the faith especially at the dogmatic level. What happened is just a dogmatic definition, not a new dogma.
There are two points to make here:

1)St Thomas Aquinas didnt believe in the Immaculate conception, '**I answer that, The sanctification of the Blessed Virgin cannot be understood as having taken place before animation, for two reasons. First, because the sanctification of which we are speaking, is nothing but the cleansing from original sin: for sanctification is a “perfect cleansing,” as Dionysius says (Div. Nom. xii). Now sin cannot be taken away except by grace, the subject of which is the rational creature alone. Therefore before the infusion of the rational soul, the Blessed Virgin was not sanctified.

Secondly, because, since the rational creature alone can be the subject of sin; before the infusion of the rational soul, the offspring conceived is not liable to sin. And thus, in whatever manner the Blessed Virgin would have been sanctified before animation, she could never have incurred the stain of original sin: and thus she would not have needed redemption and salvation which is by Christ, of whom it is written (Matthew 1:21): “He shall save His people from their sins.” But this is unfitting, through implying that Christ is not the “Saviour of all men,” as He is called (1 Timothy 4:10). It remains, therefore, that the Blessed Virgin was sanctified after animation.** ’ Summa Theologica, Third Part, Question 27

In fact many theologians at the time objected to the idea of the immaculate conception and yet they were not heretics because the doctrine was not De Fide. This is NOT an opinion it is a fact.
  1. Some Fathers do not believe in the Immaculate Conception:
'**In regard to the sinlessness of Mary the older Fathers are very cautious: some of them even seem to have been in error on this matter.
Code:
Origen, although he ascribed to Mary high spiritual prerogatives, thought that, at the time of Christ's passion, the sword of disbelief pierced Mary's soul; that she was struck by the poniard of doubt; and that for her sins also Christ died (Origen, "In Luc. hom. xvii").
In the same manner St. Basil writes in the fourth century: he sees in the sword, of which Simeon speaks, the doubt which pierced Mary's soul (Epistle 259).
St. Chrysostom accuses her of ambition, and of putting herself forward unduly when she sought to speak to Jesus at Capharnaum (Matthew 12:46; Chrysostom, Homily 44 on Matthew).**' From the new Catholic Encyclopedia which you can read [here](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm)
Again they were not heretics because the doctrine had yet to be defined De Fide.

Your mistake is in thinking that just because something is present in the deposit of faith all will believe or even know about it. This is not true, something may be in the deposit of faith but it not be know about or not understood properly, it is the task of The Church through doctrinal development to more clearly reveal the doctrine.
Returning to tradition is a complete return to it. What use is a Liturgy if it is not supported by belief behind it? The Liturgy is essential in the Eastern Faith. If the Liturgy is not in sync with the belief, then its nothing more than going through the motions of rubrics for celebration, its empty, its meaningless. In the East, the Liturgy is the basis of catechesis. What we believe is reflected in how we worship.
So in other words, No you can’t find any such authority.

And really that just brings us back to my original point, genuine traditions cannot conflict with De Fide doctrines.
 
Well put JMJ, and I’ll add, that quite often what you hear about Eastern Catholic beliefs online is often very different from what you’ll find in many Eastern Catholic Churches. It’s so common to hear people on forums claiming that Eastern Catholics do not believe in the Immaculate Conception, Papal Infallibility, Mortal Sin, Purgatory, etc, or that they do not use kneelers or confessionals or even that they see Sacred Heart devotions, Stations of the Crosses, and a statue or two, as alien to the Eastern form of worship. In reality quite a large number of Eastern Catholics have no problem accepting any of the former.
Thanks 🙂

It’s also worth adding that there are MANY eastern Catholic church’s which entirely accept so called Latin traditions for example Syro Malabar Christians, who are the second largest Eastern Catholic church.
 
So in other words, No you can’t find any such authority.
Actually, that is the way of Eastern Christianity: the beliefs come from the Liturgy. It’s not an attempt to sidestep the “authority” you’re looking for; the Divine Liturgy IS the authority. 👍
 
Actually, that is the way of Eastern Christianity: the beliefs come from the Liturgy. It’s not an attempt to sidestep the “authority” you’re looking for; the Divine Liturgy IS the authority. 👍
That is not the type of authority I am referring to and you know it, I mean an ecumenical council, a papal enyclical,a catechism, a clarification from the CDF etc… Attempting to say that the liturgy says that its legitmate to hold beliefs contrary to those that are De Fide is a patent absurdity.
 
You can go read the declarations of union between particular Churches and Rome. Union of Brest is the best place to start.

ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/TREATBR.HTM
Thanks for posting this. It’s always nice to take a look at how things were handled in the past. I would love to see a more modern document say, circa BL JPII’s time for example.
Get one from our master beadsman, Mr. Phillip Rolfes. PM him.
Oh of course. When I’m ready, I’ll contact him.
There is no conflict. Some people just make it sound like there is a conflict if we do not believe in what the RCs believe word for word. Its not that way.
The term ‘Orthodox in Communion with Rome’ seems more like a peace treaty. You leave us alone and let us do what we do and we’ll give you minimal authority. 🤷
 
That is not the type of authority I am referring to and you know it, I mean an ecumenical council, a papal enyclical,a catechism, a clarification from the CDF etc… Attempting to say that the liturgy says that its legitmate to hold beliefs contrary to those that are De Fide is a patent absurdity.
What beliefs do you charge the Eastern Catholic churches with holding that are contrary to those that are De Fide? :confused:

(and I must say it’s rather ironic - and frustrating - but also rather amusing - that here at CAF we ECs are accused of not being Catholic enough, while at online EO forums, we are accused of being TOO Catholic! The eternal struggle lol! 👍 )
 
But we can both agree some Catholic hold an identical view to the Orthodox as regarding Papal Primacy and NOT the ‘High Petrine View’
Sure, I suppose some do. But online and in real life I’ve only encountered those who hold the High Petrine view. In any case, the leadership of the eastern Catholic churches almost certainly espouse a High Petrine view or they would not view the Roman primacy as important enough to justify valuing communion with Rome.
The only demonstrable fact is that he had the benefit of his opinion of what the relatio said.
That’s quite untrue. He quoted passages that explicitly said that the pope does not have proper authority in matters that pertain specifically to another bishop’s diocese.
The problem is that no one has ever said that it is legitmate to define things in a different way
The default in theology is never to avoid believing anything the Church hasn’t formally clarified and pronounced on. Were that the case, theology as a study wouldn’t even exist. Unless the Church takes the trouble to pronounce something illegitimate, we have no right to call those who profess it heterodox.
So no they don’t get to just as Luther didn’t get to misinterpret Original sin and neither did the other reformers.
The heretical things Luther said were rejected by the Catholic Church at the Council of Trent. I see no comparably authoritative rejection of positions commonly espoused by eastern Christians. So the analogy is invalid.
No friend they’re not complicated issues, the church believes there are 21 ecumenical councils.
Please cite an authoritative - i.e. universally binding - source that establishes this. The best someone could do on another thread was the old Catholic Encyclopedia, which is… er… an encyclopedia.

The fact is that though the assumption throughout the Latin Church has been that there are twenty-one ecumenical councils, valid and rational reasons exist that make eastern Christians reasonable to question this claim by Catholic standards.

As I said, I personally see holes in *their *arguments too, and equally significant flaws exist in the standard position of the Latin Church… this is very much an unsettled matter. You can believe there have been twenty-one if you want, but don’t make the mistake of thinking that all Catholics are bound to believe that.

And though it’s an important issue, it’s not as important as one might think: non-ecumenical councils can authoritatively teach and universally bind. The Council of Orange, for instance, authoritatively condemned semi-Pelagianism even though it wasn’t ecumenical. So even if, say, Trent isn’t “ecumenical” by eastern standards, its teachings are still universally binding for Catholics.
For example women priests is a ‘complicated issue’ and yet women cannot be priests regardless of the divergence of opinions or complicatedness of the issue, the same applies to contraception, abortion etc…
An invalid comparison, because the Church has ruled authoritatively and universally on those matters. No such universally binding clarification has ever been given on the number of ecumenical councils…
What happened is just a dogmatic definition, not a new dogma.
Agreed.

There is something to this part of the disagreement, though. Would you mind perusing these two links and telling me what you think?

Cardinal Ratzinger’s 1988 Clarification of the “Ratzinger Proposal”

) on the Byzcath forums on various concepts of ecclesiologyajk

I agree with “ajk” that Pope Benedict XVI considers the “branch theory” to be untenable… and I consider it untenable, too. It would allow any group in schism from the Catholic Church to essentially hold the Church’s teaching authority hostage, which I don’t find credible at all…

What do you think? This matter has serious repercussions as regards the whole ecumenical council thing…
 
There are two points to make here:

1)St Thomas Aquinas didnt believe in the Immaculate conception, '**I answer that, The sanctification of the Blessed Virgin cannot be understood as having taken place before animation, for two reasons. First, because the sanctification of which we are speaking, is nothing but the cleansing from original sin: for sanctification is a “perfect cleansing,” as Dionysius says (Div. Nom. xii). Now sin cannot be taken away except by grace, the subject of which is the rational creature alone. Therefore before the infusion of the rational soul, the Blessed Virgin was not sanctified.

Secondly, because, since the rational creature alone can be the subject of sin; before the infusion of the rational soul, the offspring conceived is not liable to sin. And thus, in whatever manner the Blessed Virgin would have been sanctified before animation, she could never have incurred the stain of original sin: and thus she would not have needed redemption and salvation which is by Christ, of whom it is written (Matthew 1:21): “He shall save His people from their sins.” But this is unfitting, through implying that Christ is not the “Saviour of all men,” as He is called (1 Timothy 4:10). It remains, therefore, that the Blessed Virgin was sanctified after animation**. ’ Summa Theologica, Third Part, Question 27

In fact many theologians at the time objected to the idea of the immaculate conception and yet they were not heretics because the doctrine was not De Fide. This is NOT an opinion it is a fact.
What is your objection to this statement? The Theotokos was still needed to be rescued by Christ because even though she is pure and immaculate, she is not exempted from the state of the nature she is born into. What you have stated is not against what has been defined in the Immaculate Conception and is in fact consistent with how the faith is expressed and defined. The Immaculate Conception never said Mary did not need saving. In fact the Immaculate Conception was already God’s act of saving grace to Mary.

Your second mistake here is you think that Catholics believe only what is proclaimed to be believed by a council. If that is true, than Catholics believed in absolutely nothing prior to the First Council. Its anything goes. Eastern Catholics and Orthodox do not need something to be declared for us to believe in it. If the Apostles and the Early Church Fathers taught it, we believed in it. If they were not authoritative enough, then no modern theologian is.
  1. Some Fathers do not believe in the Immaculate Conception:
'**In regard to the sinlessness of Mary the older Fathers are very cautious: some of them even seem to have been in error on this matter.
Code:
Origen, although he ascribed to Mary high spiritual prerogatives, thought that, at the time of Christ's passion, the sword of disbelief pierced Mary's soul; that she was struck by the poniard of doubt; and that for her sins also Christ died (Origen, "In Luc. hom. xvii").
In the same manner St. Basil writes in the fourth century: he sees in the sword, of which Simeon speaks, the doubt which pierced Mary's soul (Epistle 259).
St. Chrysostom accuses her of ambition, and of putting herself forward unduly when she sought to speak to Jesus at Capharnaum (Matthew 12:46; Chrysostom, Homily 44 on Matthew).**' From the new Catholic Encyclopedia which you can read [here](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm)
Again they were not heretics because the doctrine had yet to be defined De Fide.
So you’re saying its a theological free for all before something is declared De Fide?
Your mistake is in thinking that just because something is present in the deposit of faith all will believe or even know about it. This is not true, something may be in the deposit of faith but it not be know about or not understood properly, it is the task of The Church through doctrinal development to more clearly reveal the doctrine.
Revelation ended with the death of St. John the Apostle. The current Church can only define, clarify and make relevant. There is no more “reveal”.
So in other words, No you can’t find any such authority.

And really that just brings us back to my original point, genuine traditions cannot conflict with De Fide doctrines.
And vice versa. The authority of the Pope and Magisterium is not above Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture. Remember the 3 pillars of our faith, the Magisterium, Tradition and Scripture. None is above the other. The other two always confirm the one. Every statement of faith must be upheld by all three, or it will not stand. So no teaching of any Pope at any time can ever go against Sacred Tradition. Thus no matter what has recently been declared De Fide can never go against what has been believed all along.
 
Thanks for posting this. It’s always nice to take a look at how things were handled in the past. I would love to see a more modern document say, circa BL JPII’s time for example.
I don’t know why something that has been settled 500 years ago needs to be redefined again today 😉

Sure, we can say that the Union of Brest or other declarations of union may not have been followed faithfully by either side at one point in time or another, but still what has been agreed upon is still binding as none of the treaties have been abrogated.
Oh of course. When I’m ready, I’ll contact him.
You won’t regret it 😉
The term ‘Orthodox in Communion with Rome’ seems more like a peace treaty. You leave us alone and let us do what we do and we’ll give you minimal authority. 🤷
That term didn’t come from the lay or even the Bishops of the East. It came from a Pope. I forgot who, many attribute it to Blessed Pope John Paul II but he isn’t the first one to use the term. Basically the term suggests that Eastern Catholics carry the belief and traditions of the Orthodox, but be in communion with Rome. Of course some Orthodox will claim that being Orthodox and being in communion with Rome is an oxymoron. But its not like the entire Orthodox Church were never in communion with Rome at some point in history. So its not something entirely possible, and its something that Eastern Catholics are trying hard to live.
 
I don’t know why something that has been settled 500 years ago needs to be redefined again today 😉

Sure, we can say that the Union of Brest or other declarations of union may not have been followed faithfully by either side at one point in time or another, but still what has been agreed upon is still binding as none of the treaties have been abrogated.
Oh okay. I just assumed there was something else because you told me to start with that.
 
What is your objection to this statement? The Theotokos was still needed to be rescued by Christ because even though she is pure and immaculate, she is not exempted from the state of the nature she is born into. What you have stated is not against what has been defined in the Immaculate Conception and is in fact consistent with how the faith is expressed and defined.
If you read the statement through you will understand it rejects the immaculate conception on the basis that if it is true then Mary would not have to be saved. The fact that St Thomas at least in his Summa did not believe in the Immaculate conception is not up for discussion, it is a fact
‘**St. Thomas at first pronounced in favour of the doctrine in his treatise on the “Sentences” (in I. Sent. c. 44, q. I ad 3), yet in his “Summa Theologica” he concluded against it. Much discussion has arisen as to whether St. Thomas did or did not deny that the Blessed Virgin was immaculate at the instant of her animation, and learned books have been written to vindicate him from having actually drawn the negative conclusion. Yet it is hard to say that St. Thomas did not require an instant at least, after the animation of Mary, before her sanctification. His great difficulty appears to have arisen from the doubt as to how she could have been redeemed if she had not sinned. This difficulty he raised in no fewer than ten passages in his writings (see, e.g., Summa III:27:2, ad 2). But while St. Thomas thus held back from the essential point of the doctrine, he himself laid down the principles which, after they had been drawn together and worked out, enabled other minds to furnish the true solution of this difficulty from his own premises. **’ Catholic Encyclopedia

We can clearly see he did not believe in it here '**I answer that, The sanctification of the Blessed Virgin cannot be understood as having taken place before animation, for two reasons. First, because the sanctification of which we are speaking, is nothing but the cleansing from original sin: for sanctification is a “perfect cleansing,” as Dionysius says (Div. Nom. xii). Now sin cannot be taken away except by grace, the subject of which is the rational creature alone. Therefore before the infusion of the rational soul, the Blessed Virgin was not sanctified.

Secondly, because, since the rational creature alone can be the subject of sin; before the infusion of the rational soul, the offspring conceived is not liable to sin. And thus, in whatever manner the Blessed Virgin would have been sanctified before animation, she could never have incurred the stain of original sin: and thus she would not have needed redemption and salvation which is by Christ, of whom it is written (Matthew 1:21): “He shall save His people from their sins.” But this is unfitting, through implying that Christ is not the “Saviour of all men,” as He is called (1 Timothy 4:10). It remains, therefore, that the Blessed Virgin was sanctified after animation.

Reply to Objection 1. The Lord says that He “knew” Jeremias before he was formed in the womb, by knowledge, that is to say, of predestination: but He says that He “sanctified” him, not before formation, but before he “came forth out of the womb,” etc. As to what Ambrose says, viz. that in John the Baptist there was not the spirit of life when there was already the Spirit of grace, by spirit of life we are not to understand the life-giving soul, but the air which we breathe out [respiratus]. Or it may be said that in him as yet there was not the spirit of life, that is the soul, as to its manifest and complete operations.

Reply to Objection 2. If the soul of the Blessed Virgin had never incurred the stain of original sin, this would be derogatory to the dignity of Christ, by reason of His being the universal Saviour of all. Consequently after Christ, who, as the universal Saviour of all, needed not to be saved, the purity of the Blessed Virgin holds the highest place. For Christ did not contract original sin in any way whatever, but was holy in His very Conception, according to Luke 1:35: “The Holy which shall be born of thee, shall be called the Son of God.” But the Blessed Virgin did indeed contract original sin, but was cleansed therefrom before her birth from the womb. This is what is signified (Job 3:9) where it is written of the night of original sin: “Let it expect light,” i.e. Christ, “and not see it”–(because “no defiled thing cometh into her,” as is written in Wisdom 7:25), “nor the rising of the dawning of the day,” that is of the Blessed Virgin, who in her birth was immune from original sin.

Reply to Objection 3. Although the Church of Rome does not celebrate the Conception of the Blessed Virgin, yet it tolerates the custom of certain churches that do keep that feast, wherefore this is not to be entirely reprobated. Nevertheless the celebration of this feast does not give us to understand that she was holy in her conception. But since it is not known when she was sanctified, the feast of her Sanctification, rather than the feast of her Conception, is kept on the day of her conception.

Reply to Objection 4. Sanctification is twofold. One is that of the whole nature: inasmuch as the whole human nature is freed from all corruption of sin and punishment. This will take place at the resurrection. The other is personal sanctification. This is not transmitted to the children begotten of the flesh: because it does not regard the flesh but the mind. Consequently, though the parents of the Blessed Virgin were cleansed from original sin, nevertheless she contracted original sin, since she was conceived by way of fleshly concupiscence and the intercourse of man and woman: for Augustine says (De Nup. et Concup. i): “All flesh born of carnal intercourse is sinful.” **’
 
Your second mistake here is you think that Catholics believe only what is proclaimed to be believed by a council. If that is true, than Catholics believed in absolutely nothing prior to the First Council. Its anything goes. Eastern Catholics and Orthodox do not need something to be declared for us to believe in it. If the Apostles and the Early Church Fathers taught it, we believed in it. If they were not authoritative enough, then no modern theologian is.
This makes no sense. Catholics are not bound to believe only what a council teaches but they are bound to obey a council and believe everything it teaches. If therefore it condemns other positions and forbids them from holding it, they cannot hold these positions. Similarly if it condemns the holding of any other position they must not hold any other positions.
So you’re saying its a theological free for all before something is declared De Fide?
Now you’re just being silly it is not a ‘free for all’ but until a doctrine is declared De Fide there are certain limits within which one can operate, afterwards there is no freedom one must simply assent to the teaching of the church. I have given you the example of St Thomas which you cannot refute and is undisputed and now I will give you the example of Papal Supremacy. Prior to Vatican I, there were two acceptable schools of though on the doctrine, Gallicanism and Ultramontanism. The former is described thus ‘This term is used to designate a certain group of religious opinions for some time peculiar to the Church of France, or Gallican Church, and the theological schools of that country. These opinions, in opposition to the ideas which were called in France “Ultramontane”, tended chiefly to a restraint of the pope’s authority in the Church in favour of that of the bishops and the temporal ruler. It is important, however, to remark at the outset that the warmest and most accredited partisans of Gallican ideas by no means contested the pope’s primacy in the Church, and never claimed for their ideas the force of articles of faith. They aimed only at making it clear that their way of regarding the authority of the pope seemed to them more in conformity with Holy Scripture and tradition. At the same time, their theory did not, as they regarded it, transgress the limits of free opinions, which it is allowable for any theological school to choose for itself provided that the Catholic Creed be duly accepted.’ and the latter thus ‘**In a very different sense, the word once more came into use after the Protestant Reformation, which was, among other things, a triumph of that ecclesiastical particularism, based on political principles, which was formulated in the maxim: Cujus regio, ejus religio. Among the Catholic governments and peoples there gradually developed an analogous tendency to regard the papacy as a foreign power; Gallicanism and all forms of French and German regalism affected to look upon the Holy See as an alien power because it was beyond the Alpine boundaries of both the French kingdom and the German empire. This name of Ultramontane the Gallicans applied to the supporters of the Roman doctrines–whether that of the monarchical character of the pope in the government of the Church or of the infallible pontifical magisterium–inasmuch as the latter were supposed to renounce “Gallican liberties” in favour of the head of the Church who resided ultra montes. This use of the word was not altogether novel; as early as the time of Gregory VII the opponents of Henry IV in Germany had been called Ultramontanes (ultramontani). In both cases the term was intended to be opprobrious, or at least to convey the imputation of a failing in attachment to the Ultramontane’s own prince, or his country, or his national Church.
**’ After Vatican I, however Gallicanism was no longer an acceptable position and ultramontanism triumped as thensole acceptable position.
Revelation ended with the death of St. John the Apostle. The current Church can only define, clarify and make relevant. There is no more “reveal”.
To more faithfully expound and to more clearly reveal mean exactly the same thing in the english language, stop playing semantics.
And vice versa. The authority of the Pope and Magisterium is not above Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture. Remember the 3 pillars of our faith, the Magisterium, Tradition and Scripture. None is above the other. The other two always confirm the one. Every statement of faith must be upheld by all three, or it will not stand. So no teaching of any Pope at any time can ever go against Sacred Tradition. Thus no matter what has recently been declared De Fide can never go against what has been believed all along.
Who told you that the three pillars of faith are the Magisterium, Tradition and Sacred scripture? As the Magisterium is the teaching authority of the Church it includes tradition and sacred scripture, thus the Magisterium can never infallibly state something that is contrary to Tradition and sacred scripture and there is a presumption against it doing so in any way unless it can be shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that it has done so.
 
Who told you that the three pillars of faith are the Magisterium, Tradition and Sacred scripture? As the Magisterium is the teaching authority of the Church it includes tradition and sacred scripture, thus the Magisterium can never infallibly state something that is contrary to Tradition and sacred scripture and there is a presumption against it doing so in any way unless it can be shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that it has done so.
Maybe he means the three pillars of the Church’s authority?
 
Sure, I suppose some do. But online and in real life I’ve only encountered those who hold the High Petrine view. In any case, the leadership of the eastern Catholic churches almost certainly espouse a High Petrine view or they would not view the Roman primacy as important enough to justify valuing communion with Rome.
Its not very hard to find numerous Orthodox saints, theologians, bishops, councils and catechisms saying otherwise.
That’s quite untrue. He quoted passages that explicitly said that the pope does not have proper authority in matters that pertain specifically to another bishop’s diocese.
And yet no author I have read, no pope, no doctor of the church and no Catechism written either before or after this period appears to support this position. Curious.
The default in theology is never to avoid believing anything the Church hasn’t formally clarified and pronounced on. Were that the case, theology as a study wouldn’t even exist. Unless the Church takes the trouble to pronounce something illegitimate, we have no right to call those who profess it heterodox.
I’m afraid this doesn’t apply to position that:
  1. Have been condemned
    2)Clearly contradict established teaching
It also doesn’t apply to Marian apparitions or doctrines which are at best dubious where the default is not to believe
The heretical things Luther said were rejected by the Catholic Church at the Council of Trent. I see no comparably authoritative rejection of positions commonly espoused by eastern Christians. So the analogy is invalid.
Are you actually seriously arguing that ecumenical councils themselves need infallible clarification? I would hope you realise the absurdity of such a position. Does every single council call itself an ecumenical or general council (terms which are interchangeable)? Yes, every single ecumenical council does. Do all orthodox Catholic theologians accept 21 ecumenical councils? Yes they do. Have the councils themselves referred to earlier councils as ecumenical? Yes they do. This can be seen scattered throughout the ecumenical councils but is most clearly set forth in the first Vatican Council which states in the profession of faith '**Likewise
Code:
all other things which have been transmitted, defined and declared by the sacred canons and the ecumenical councils, especially the sacred Trent, I accept unhesitatingly and profess; in the same way
whatever is to the contrary, and whatever heresies have been condemned, rejected and anathematised by the church, I too condemn, reject and anathematise.**' and later '**that apostolic primacy which the Roman pontiff possesses as successor of Peter, the prince of the apostles, includes also the supreme power of teaching.

This holy see has always maintained this,
the constant custom of the church demonstrates it, and
the ecumenical councils, particularly those in which East and West met in the union of faith and charity, have declared it.
[councils]
So the fathers of the fourth council of Constantinople, following the footsteps of their predecessors, published this solemn profession of faith:
Code:
The first condition of salvation is to maintain the rule of the true faith. And since that saying of our lord Jesus Christ, You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church [55] , cannot fail of its effect, the words spoken are confirmed by their consequences. For in the apostolic see the catholic religion has always been preserved unblemished, and sacred doctrine been held in honour. Since it is our earnest desire to be in no way separated from this faith and doctrine, we hope that we may deserve to remain in that one communion which the apostolic see preaches, for in it is the whole and true strength of the christian religion [56] .
What is more, with the approval of the second council of Lyons, the Greeks made the following profession:
Code:
"The holy Roman church possesses the supreme and full primacy and principality over the whole catholic church. She truly and humbly acknowledges that she received this from the Lord himself in blessed Peter, the prince and chief of the apostles, whose successor the Roman pontiff is, together with the fullness of power. And since before all others she has the duty of defending the truth of the faith, so if any questions arise concerning the faith, it is by her judgment that they must be settled." [57]
Then there is the definition of the council of Florence:
Code:
"The Roman pontiff is the true vicar of Christ, the head of the whole church and the father and teacher of all Christians; and to him was committed in blessed Peter, by our lord Jesus Christ, the full power of tending, ruling and governing the whole church."** [58] '
Thus clearly stating that ALL these councils are ecumenical and seeing as the objections levelled against them are the same levelled against accepting any of the later ‘western’ councils we can be sure that they are ALL ecumenical.
 
The closing speech of Pope Paul VI states ‘**At this solemn moment, we, the Fathers of the 21st ecumenical council of the Catholic Church, on the point of disbanding after four years of prayer and work, with the full consciousness of our mission toward mankind, address ourselves respectively and confidently to those who hold in their hands the destiny of men on this earth, to all those who hold temporal power. **’

Pope Pius XI in his encyclical Ad Catholici Sacerdotii states ‘The Angelic Doctor St. Thomas long ago proposed this difficulty, and answers it with his usual lucidity and wisdom: “God never abandons His Church; and so the number of priests will be always sufficient for the needs of the faithful, provided the worthy are advanced and the unworthy sent away.” The same Doctor and Saint, basing himself upon the severe words quoted by the fourth Ecumenical Council of the Lateran’ Thus stating that this council was in fact ecumenical

And of course one should not despise the words of something as widely lauded and accepted as The Catholic Encyclopedia.
The fact is that though the assumption throughout the Latin Church has been that there are twenty-one ecumenical councils, valid and rational reasons exist that make eastern Christians reasonable to question this claim by Catholic standards.
Only if one believes schismatics should attend councils to be ecumenical or that councils require something else than being declared or accepted as ecumenical by the Pope in order to be ecumenical .
An invalid comparison, because the Church has ruled authoritatively and universally on those matters. No such universally binding clarification has ever been given on the number of ecumenical councils…
I both disproved and dealt with the absurdity of this position earlier.
 
Its not very hard to find numerous Orthodox saints, theologians, bishops, councils and catechisms saying otherwise.
Well, sure. Within the eastern Orthodox Church, there’s no uniformity on this matter: some hold a Low Petrine view, some hold a High Petrine view. I was talking about eastern Catholics…
And yet no author I have read, no pope, no doctor of the church and no Catechism written either before or after this period appears to support this position. Curious.
Actually, you’re incorrect. Sorry, jmj, but the thoroughness I have seen from those like Marduk - both in quoting authoritative sources and historical facts - cannot be matched from those whose best argument is, “Well, I haven’t read that…”
Are you actually seriously arguing that ecumenical councils themselves need infallible clarification?
Sometimes. They always build on each other, right? Didn’t Chalcedon clarify Ephesus? Didn’t Vatican II clarify Vatican I?

And yes, I’m aware that Church documents sometimes refer to “twenty-one” ecumenical councils, but that is an assumption, not an assertion. Some of the latter fourteen councils didn’t deal with anything universal at all but merely with disciplinary matters of the Latin Church or with Church-state relationships in western and central Europe. Why should they be considered ecumenical? Not every council intended to be ecumenical and ratified by the pope came to be considered ecumenical, you know - even before the East-West Schism. So, “this council thinks it’s ecumenical” isn’t good enough.

I personally believe that there have been somewhere between 11 and 21 ecumenical councils myself, though my opinion on this really doesn’t matter… I haven’t done nearly enough research myself.

But jmj, please listen when I expain that this matter is no threat to the teaching authority of the Magisterium of the Catholic Church: even non-ecumenical councils like the Council of Orange (which condemned semi-Pelagianism) or the Council of Rome (which first set the canon of Scripture) can teach with authority. So no eastern Catholic who questions the “ecumenical” status of, say, Trent (which I personally consider ecumenical, by the way) is claiming anything that could ever justify not believing in its teachings.
Only if one believes schismatics should attend councils to be ecumenical or that councils require something else than being declared or accepted as ecumenical by the Pope in order to be ecumenical.
What about councils that don’t deal with anything universally relevant at all but merely with political matters and disciplinary matters of the Latin Church?

Also, to Constantine, I genuinely would - if you have the time - appreciate your response to the content discussed in those two links I gave earlier:

Cardinal Ratzinger’s 1988 Clarification of the “Ratzinger Proposal”

and

on this Byzcath forum thread on ecclesiology and ecumenismajk

Thanks! 🙂
 
Oh okay. I just assumed there was something else because you told me to start with that.
There are many treaties between the different Eastern Churches over time. The Union of Brest is just one of them. The Eastern Churches didn’t reunite en masse. They came into union one by one.
 
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