Do Eastern Catholics Believe in Mortal and Venial Sin?

[ciero]

None of the many cradle Eastern Catholics I’ve spoken with over the years believe they have a particular cross to bear, a tightrope to walk, or suffer from a spiritual identity crisis regarding who they really are. Most would look quite puzzled if anyone suggested that there purpose is to show the Orthodox that “they can remain fully orthodox and still be in communion with the bishop of Rome”

           In short most EC's would simply tell you that they are what they are. Catholics, who practice a somewhat different form of worship from the Latin Rite, but who none the less are still first and foremost Catholic. Many of the oldtimers in fact look back very fondly upon what the OICWR crowd would refer to as the "Bad Old Days of Latinization"

Maybe you should speak to a few more cradle Greek Catholics. How broad is your exposer to cradle Greek Catholics. Having worked in Catholic Orthodox ecumenism for over 30 years now both here in the US and abroad I find things much more in line as theistgirl stated.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

I see no evidence anywhere that the Pope accepted or promulugated the council as ecumenical.

I can only recommend that you read through the recent thread on ecumenical councils.

It’s long, so it may take you awhile, but you will learn a lot. I did.

There you go again. Do you even know what contradict means? It seems that for you it has to be word-for-word the same, otherwise they cannot be contradictory. Two things doesn’t have to be 100% the same exact thing to be non-contradictory. Not just because the theology is different means they are contradictory. The Pope has said as much, the Church has said as much, why can’t you get it? Our theology is different, but its not contradictory.

Exactly.

Look, if we want to be separatists, it is sssoooooo easy for us to become Orthodox. In fact, going to an OCA parish would probably be better for me than being in a Ukrainian Catholic one because I’m ethnically out of place.

Well said. I find it quite bizarre that anyone would find it credible to question the commitment of eastern Catholics to the Catholic Church… put simply, actions speak louder than words. And despite difficulties, eastern Catholics deliberately maintain communion with the Holy See.

Boy I’m sure glad my bishop and Rome see things differently then all those pushing an ultra RC position on here!

As a Latin Catholic eager for reunion with the eastern and oriental Orthodox Churches - though I recognize it probably won’t happen in my lifetime - I wholeheartedly agree, ciero.

What have I said that has been too RC for you? And technically the whole church is Roman . (I said technically). BTW I’m (shudder) Lutheran right now . So I’m not fully informed.

I respectfully disagree, Swiss Guy. I think technically only the Diocese of Rome is a “Roman Church.” Even the other dioceses of the Latin Church aren’t “Roman” - it’s just that the bishop of Rome has supreme authority in the Church.

I’m aware of the derogatory term. But I mean that the church sometimes says “this Holy Roman…” but maybe I understand this wrong.

Yes, you’re right, and I’m surprised that our eastern brethren on here haven’t encountered such documents.

Nonetheless, that shorthand/terminology - common in some periods of the second millennium - doesn’t actually make the whole Church herself “Roman.” On a literal/technical level, only the Diocese of Rome is Roman. Of course, every Catholic bishop is in communion with the bishop of Rome as Supreme Pontiff.

seeing as no pope, ecumenical council or catechism agrees with you, why call yourselves catholic?

Way too far. Completely unacceptable.

And besides, it’s not even true. You really think recent popes wouldn’t have at least attempted to crack down on the eastern churches if they suspected them of the kind of things you’re accusing them of? It’s your position that has the credibility of a conspiracy theory, jmj.

Yes, its the cross we bear. We are both and neither Catholic and Orthodox at the same time.

Neither?

How neither? I get and am grateful for the “both,” but how are you not Catholic? You are Catholic! And how are you any less Orthodox for being in communion with Rome?

“Both” is music to my ears… “neither” is sad and I believe, untrue.

None of the many cradle Eastern Catholics I’ve spoken with over the years believe they have a particular cross to bear, a tightrope to walk, or suffer from a spiritual identity crisis regarding who they really are.

So? The experience of these eastern Catholics that you know is perfectly valid and ought not to be belittled, just as that of those who do feel they walk a tightrope and have a bit of an identity crisis is valid, too. The experience of different human individuals differs. How is that a surprise?

From my (Latin Catholic) perspective, there’s something significant in both sets of experience.

Most would look quite puzzled if anyone suggested that there purpose is to show the Orthodox that “they can remain fully orthodox and still be in communion with the bishop of Rome”

And why shouldn’t they help the Orthodox see that?

In short most EC’s would simply tell you that they are what they are. Catholics, who practice a somewhat different form of worship from the Latin Rite, but who none the less are still first and foremost Catholic.

Let’s be honest here. The difference is not merely liturgical; there are theological differences that are important and legitimate, too.

Many of the oldtimers in fact look back very fondly upon what the OICWR crowd would refer to as the “Bad Old Days of Latinization”

Well, Rome herself has instructed them to undo those bad old days.

We can’t have it both ways, Seamus. If the eastern churches accept any Latinizations, the wishes of Rome have been ignored or violated. If they honor what Rome has asked of them, they will be true to their eastern heritage…

 

[jmj1984]

I can only recommend that you read through the recent thread on ecumenical councils.

It’s long, so it may take you awhile, but you will learn a lot. I did.

Exactly.

Well said. I find it quite bizarre that anyone would find it credible to question the commitment of eastern Catholics to the Catholic Church… put simply, actions speak louder than words. And despite difficulties, eastern Catholics deliberately maintain communion with the Holy See.

As a Latin Catholic eager for reunion with the eastern and oriental Orthodox Churches - though I recognize it probably won’t happen in my lifetime - I wholeheartedly agree, ciero.

I respectfully disagree, Swiss Guy. I think technically only the Diocese of Rome is a “Roman Church.” Even the other dioceses of the Latin Church aren’t “Roman” - it’s just that the bishop of Rome has supreme authority in the Church.

Yes, you’re right, and I’m surprised that our eastern brethren on here haven’t encountered such documents.

Nonetheless, that shorthand/terminology - common in some periods of the second millennium - doesn’t actually make the whole Church herself “Roman.” On a literal/technical level, only the Diocese of Rome is Roman. Of course, every Catholic bishop is in communion with the bishop of Rome as Supreme Pontiff.

Way too far. Completely unacceptable.

And besides, it’s not even true. You really think recent popes wouldn’t have at least attempted to crack down on the eastern churches if they suspected them of the kind of things you’re accusing them of? It’s your position that has the credibility of a conspiracy theory, jmj.

Lets examine which is more credible:
Position A says ‘The pope said this, the pope said that’ and makes no attempt to actually back up any of its statements with evidence. When questioned about its lack of evidence position A criticises Position B for not being credible.
Position B provides numerous citations and evidence. When questioned about its evidence it provides more evidence.

For the millionth time lets be clear that the positions espoused here aren’t the position of most eastern catholics, they could be the position of the majority of ‘Greek eastern catholics’ and I use that term for want of a better one to refer to those churches that come from the Eastern Orthodox Tradition, but as seamus L says I suspect they are not.

As for that thread I read it… I still don’t see any evidence that a council requires more than a Pope saying/promulugating it as ecumenical for it to be ecumenical

As for why Eastern Catholics that agree with this position remain within the church, who knows. I mean who knows why anglicans that don’t agree with homosexual priests or women priests don’t leave that church or why Liberal Catholics don’t leave it and join the Anglican communion. It’s not an argument at all in other words.

 

[Seamus_L]

I’m not trying to have anything both ways, I’m just telling you what I’ve experienced over many years of contact with EC’s.

             Ever wonder why so many converts to Eastern Catholic Churches end up becoming fully Orthodox NOT in communion ? I mean, it's hardly a secret in the online community. Just in case you haven't, it goes typically like "I tried, I really tried to be Orthodox in communion at the parish I attended, but no one else was interested. They were perfectly content with remaining Roman Catholics with a funny mass, and even the priest had a very Latin mindset. For them, church was all about preserving their exclusive ethnic club"

           As for the old "Rome has commanded us" argument, it could easily be buried under Papal letters that OICWR types claim are non-binding upon them.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

I’m not trying to have anything both ways, I’m just telling you what I’ve experienced over many years of contact with EC’s.

Sorry, I didn’t mean to belittle your experience, either. In fact, my desire was to promote the validity of both kinds of experiences that eastern Catholics have.

Ever wonder why so many converts to Eastern Catholic Churches end up becoming fully Orthodox NOT in communion ? I mean, it’s hardly a secret in the online community. Just in case you haven’t, it goes typically like “I tried, I really tried to be Orthodox in communion at the parish I attended, but no one else was interested. They were perfectly content with remaining Roman Catholics with a funny mass, and even the priest had a very Latin mindset. For them, church was all about preserving their exclusive ethnic club”

Maybe their description of their old eastern Catholic parish (before they became Orthodox) isn’t fair. But *if *it is, then they were right to be upset: eastern Catholics aren’t supposed to simply be “Roman Catholics with a funny Mass.” It’s not just a liturgical difference: they are autonomous (sui iuris) churches with a unique theological patrimony that justly differs from our western heritage. That’s all I’m saying.

 

[Hesychios]

I’m not trying to have anything both ways, I’m just telling you what I’ve experienced over many years of contact with EC’s.

Ever wonder why so many converts to Eastern Catholic Churches end up becoming fully Orthodox NOT in communion ? I mean, it’s hardly a secret in the online community. Just in case you haven’t, it goes typically like “I tried, I really tried to be Orthodox in communion at the parish I attended, but no one else was interested. They were perfectly content with remaining Roman Catholics with a funny mass, and even the priest had a very Latin mindset. For them, church was all about preserving their exclusive ethnic club”

These comments pretty much agree with what I have observed.

 

[TrueLight]

We can’t have it both ways, Seamus. If the eastern churches accept any Latinizations, the wishes of Rome have been ignored or violated. If they honor what Rome has asked of them, they will be true to their eastern heritage…

I have seen it said many times here that Rome wants the Eastern Churches to maintain their Eastern Heritage, but I have not seen any conclusive links as to what that means.

Are Latinizations things like the Rosary, Stations of the Cross?

Or is it things like the Authority of the Pope, De Fide Dogma etc?

Are there any documents that address things like that?

 

[ciero]

I have seen it said many times here that Rome wants the Eastern Churches to maintain their Eastern Heritage, but I have not seen any conclusive links as to what that means.

Are Latinizations things like the Rosary, Stations of the Cross?

Or is it things like the Authority of the Pope, De Fide Dogma etc?

Are there any documents that address things like that?

All of the above!

Rome has been urging the Eastern churches to rid themselves of Latinizations since The mid 1800’s (can’t remember the name of the pope at the time). There are plenty of documents stating this, including documents from Vatican II, JPII and ors of others. This old man just isn’t techno savvy enough to link to them on line. One of you younger kiddos will have to do that.

 

[steve_b]

Maybe you should speak to a few more cradle Greek Catholics. How broad is your exposer to cradle Greek Catholics. Having worked in Catholic Orthodox ecumenism for over 30 years now both here in the US and abroad I find things much more in line as theistgirl stated.

I’m curious, how many, total number, make up the Greek Catholic Church

 

[steve_b]

All of the above!

Rome has been urging the Eastern churches to rid themselves of*** Latinizations*** since The mid 1800’s (can’t remember the name of the pope at the time). There are plenty of documents stating this, including documents from Vatican II, JPII and ors of others. This old man just isn’t techno savvy enough to link to them on line. One of you younger kiddos will have to do that.

Again, just curiouis, what specifically are Latinizations refering to?

 

[Hesychios]

I’m curious, how many, total number, make up the Greek Catholic Church

There are about 17.5 million Eastern Catholics, of which I believe about half could be identified as ‘Greek Catholic’ (those primarily using the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom). The largest group of Greek Catholics being the UGCC, and the next largest being the Melkites of Antioch, plus an array of others from central Europe and southern Europe. I used to have the figures, but I haven’t put them together in several years.

 

[Hesychios]

Again, just curiouis, what specifically are Latinizations refering to?

http://melkite.org/LATIN-IN.JPG

From a Melkite parish website …

As Milwaukee’s Syrian-Lebanese became more like their German, Polish and Italian neighbors, the parish of St. George became increasingly like the parishes of St. Hedwig, St Stanislaus, and St. Anthony. A Western-style of worship, practices that were like those of the Latin Rite, became common. The list of “latinizations” would include:

1. 
   *]Unmarried priesthood
   *]Statues
   *]Altar rails
   *]Confessional boxes
   *]Stations of the Cross hanging on walls
   *]3-D Crucifixes on walls
   *]Western-style paintings
   *]Suppression of liturgical hours
   *]Suppression of Presanctified in favor of Divine Liturgy
   *]Use of Western style Mass instead of the Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom or St. Basil
   *]Introduction of Western prayers: the Rosary, etc.
   *]Introduction of Western music and polyphonic hymns
   *]Use of musical instruments: church organs
   *]Emphasizing the words of Institution and silencing the Epiklesis prayers
   *]Truncation of prayers, especially the shortening of psalms in liturgies
   *]Reduction of prostrations and reverences
   *]Use of genuflections and kneeling instead of standing during prayers
   *]Combining Divine Liturgy with other services: marriage, funeral
   *]Not distributing the antidoron
   *]Elimination of using hot water during Consecration
   *]Not having a curtain behind the Royal Doors, nor having an iconostasis
   *]First Communion and Chrismation separated from Baptism

 

[ConstantineTG]

Well said. I find it quite bizarre that anyone would find it credible to question the commitment of eastern Catholics to the Catholic Church… put simply, actions speak louder than words. And despite difficulties, eastern Catholics deliberately maintain communion with the Holy See.

Not to mention many has suffered and have been persecuted because of the communion with Rome, and yet they persevere.

Neither?

How neither? I get and am grateful for the “both,” but how are you not Catholic? You are Catholic! And how are you any less Orthodox for being in communion with Rome?

“Both” is music to my ears… “neither” is sad and I believe, untrue.

When I mean neither, its not because of our own choice. As this thread has shown, we are not Catholic enough because we do not express our theology on The Fall as Original Sin, because we have married priests, because we pray for the dead and believe it is efficacious to do so but don’t think there is a fiery process behind it, because we do not classify sins as mortal and venial, because we do not recite the Filioque in the Creed.

The Orthodox deny we are Orthodox in our faith because we are in communion with the Pope of Rome.

You are right, it is sad. And the saddest part is its true.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I have seen it said many times here that Rome wants the Eastern Churches to maintain their Eastern Heritage, but I have not seen any conclusive links as to what that means.

Try these two links:

saintelias.com/ca/home/

youtube.com/user/tsyhan

Are Latinizations things like the Rosary, Stations of the Cross?

Yes. Not because they are wrong, but because they express Western Spirituality, not Eastern.

Or is it things like the Authority of the Pope, De Fide Dogma etc?

Some people confuse what is required belief, and what is the Western expression of this required belief. Some believe that the Western expression IS the required belief. Not so. If you read the documents themselves, more often than not what is actually required is the same as what the East believes. The problem is when people start pushing the Western expression as inseparable from the belief.

Are there any documents that address things like that?

There are writings by Eastern bishops.

 

[jmj1984]

When I mean neither, its not because of our own choice. As this thread has shown, we are not Catholic enough because we do not express our theology on The Fall as Original Sin, because we have married priests, because we pray for the dead and believe it is efficacious to do so but don’t think there is a fiery process behind it, because we do not classify sins as mortal and venial, because we do not recite the Filioque in the Creed.

The Orthodox deny we are Orthodox in our faith because we are in communion with the Pope of Rome.

You are right, it is sad. And the saddest part is its true.

Of course not all eastern catholics feel that way or believe that theology. Perhaps you just do what converts to the church all throughout its history like me have done and embrace its De Fide doctrines.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Of course not all eastern catholics feel that way or believe that theology.

And thats the second saddest part. They live more a spirituality that is not in line with the faith they profess. No one is stopping them from becoming Roman Catholics, as many of us Roman Catholics who wished to life the Eastern faith have decided to become Eastern Catholics. We have to be true to the faith we profess. The Church is not a dictatorship, we are free to authentically pursue a spirituality we choose.

Perhaps you just do what converts to the church all throughout its history like me have done and embrace its De Fide doctrines.

I am embracing the authentic Eastern faith as the Pope have told us to do

 

[Swiss_Guy]

When was this Creed adopted as the official Creed of the Catholic Church? I never saw it before, and it is certainly NOT the Creed that we profess in our Liturgy!

It’s just another Creed the Church has. LIke the Apostle’s, Nicene, Chalcedonian, etc.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

And thats the second saddest part. They live more a spirituality that is not in line with the faith they profess. No one is stopping them from becoming Roman Catholics, as many of us Roman Catholics who wished to life the Eastern faith have decided to become Eastern Catholics. We have to be true to the faith we profess. The Church is not a dictatorship, we are free to authentically pursue a spirituality we choose.

There is only one faith - the Catholic faith. I’m assuming what you mean is how you express that one Catholic faith, correct?

I am embracing the authentic Eastern faith as the Pope have told us to do

Eastern Expression of faith?

As am I with the Western.

Also, I still don’t understand the Eastern Catholic view on the Pope’s supremecy . Any thoughts?

 

[jmj1984]

And thats the second saddest part. They live more a spirituality that is not in line with the faith they profess. No one is stopping them from becoming Roman Catholics, as many of us Roman Catholics who wished to life the Eastern faith have decided to become Eastern Catholics. We have to be true to the faith we profess. The Church is not a dictatorship, we are free to authentically pursue a spirituality we choose.

When faced with the fact that numerous eastern catholics think otherwise you just criticise them

As for this eastern/western faith stuff, well just to point out there is ONE faith just as there is ONE Church and ONE baptism, that is a basic tenet of catholic faith.

You are free to pursue spirituality, but you are not free to ignore Dogma, dominican’s cannot ignore the immaculate conception because St Thomas Aquinas did as part of their spirituality nor can Jesuits go around saying everyones saved because its part of their spirituality. Why? Because the church doesn’t allow freedom when it comes to Dogmas.

I am embracing the authentic Eastern faith as the Pope have told us to do

Contrary to popular belief repeating something doesn’t make it true.

 

[Bluegoat]

Theology is systematic - you can’t just cobble bits and pieces from different approches together - for example adding a Latin approach to sin to an otherwise Eastern context - and expect it to work. It just will no longer make sense.

It is too bad that people can’t seem to grasp the difference between the Faith and theology. That is the real problem here, and one that it seems the Roman Church has figured out in recent years - even if some don’t believe it.