Do Eastern Catholics Believe in Mortal and Venial Sin?

[TrueLight]

http://melkite.org/LATIN-IN.JPG

From a Melkite parish website …

As Milwaukee’s Syrian-Lebanese became more like their German, Polish and Italian neighbors, the parish of St. George became increasingly like the parishes of St. Hedwig, St Stanislaus, and St. Anthony. A Western-style of worship, practices that were like those of the Latin Rite, became common. The list of “latinizations” would include:

1. 
   *]Unmarried priesthood
   *]Statues
   *]Altar rails
   *]Confessional boxes
   *]Stations of the Cross hanging on walls
   *]3-D Crucifixes on walls
   *]Western-style paintings
   *]Suppression of liturgical hours
   *]Suppression of Presanctified in favor of Divine Liturgy
   *]Use of Western style Mass instead of the Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom or St. Basil
   *]Introduction of Western prayers: the Rosary, etc.
   *]Introduction of Western music and polyphonic hymns
   *]Use of musical instruments: church organs
   *]Emphasizing the words of Institution and silencing the Epiklesis prayers
   *]Truncation of prayers, especially the shortening of psalms in liturgies
   *]Reduction of prostrations and reverences
   *]Use of genuflections and kneeling instead of standing during prayers
   *]Combining Divine Liturgy with other services: marriage, funeral
   *]Not distributing the antidoron
   *]Elimination of using hot water during Consecration
   *]Not having a curtain behind the Royal Doors, nor having an iconostasis
   *]First Communion and Chrismation separated from Baptism

1. 
   I can see Rome encouraging retaining Eastern tradition when it comes to all these things. But again, Dogma is another thing.

 

[TrueLight]

Try these two links:

saintelias.com/ca/home/

youtube.com/user/tsyhan

Thanks for the links Constantine, but how are they answering my question?

Some people confuse what is required belief, and what is the Western expression of this required belief. Some believe that the Western expression IS the required belief. Not so. If you read the documents themselves, more often than not what is actually required is the same as what the East believes.

Which documents?

There are writings by Eastern bishops.

Why is this so hard?

 

[kitkatty]

It is too bad that people can’t seem to grasp the difference between the Faith and theology. That is the real problem here, and one that it seems the Roman Church has figured out in recent years - even if some don’t believe it.

Bluegoat, I think you have just described much of the back and forth here in a nutshell. Some actually are combining the Western theology with the De Fide teaching and putting it in an absolute package.As for things being De Fide a belief in a process of purification after death would pobably qualify, while a physical place of burning fire would not. The Western theology would be that process is a place of burning fire. Yet it sounds like some here would accuse us of going against Catholic teaching for not accepting the De Fide part PLUS the Western theology behind it. We do not need to accept a place of eternal fire for those being purged , just the process of purgation itself and we do. I think you can apply that example to just about everything else that that some here have said where claims have been made saying Eastern Catholics don`t always subscribe to De Fide teaching.

 

[TrueLight]

Bluegoat, I think you have just described much of the back and forth here in a nutshell. Some actually are combining the Western theology with the De Fide teaching and putting it in an absolute package.As for things being De Fide a belief in a process of purification after death would pobably qualify, while a physical place of burning fire would not. The Western theology would be that process is a place of burning fire. Yet it sounds like some here would accuse us of going against Catholic teaching for not accepting the De Fide part PLUS the Western theology behind it. We do not need to accept a place of eternal fire for those being purged , just the process of purgation itself and we do. I think you can apply that example to just about everything else that that some here have said where claims have been made saying Eastern Catholics don`t always subscribe to De Fide teaching.

I don’t know about anyone else, but purgatory is not a good example. There is lots of room for different theology there as it is not that defined.

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

 

[kitkatty]

Re: Do Eastern Catholics Believe in Mortal and Venial Sin?

---

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hesychios

From a Melkite parish website …

As Milwaukee’s Syrian-Lebanese became more like their German, Polish and Italian neighbors, the parish of St. George became increasingly like the parishes of St. Hedwig, St Stanislaus, and St. Anthony. A Western-style of worship, practices that were like those of the Latin Rite, became common. The list of “latinizations” would include:
Unmarried priesthood
Statues
Altar rails
Confessional boxes
Stations of the Cross hanging on walls
3-D Crucifixes on walls
Western-style paintings
Suppression of liturgical hours
Suppression of Presanctified in favor of Divine Liturgy
Use of Western style Mass instead of the Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom or St. Basil
Introduction of Western prayers: the Rosary, etc.
Introduction of Western music and polyphonic hymns
Use of musical instruments: church organs
Emphasizing the words of Institution and silencing the Epiklesis prayers
Truncation of prayers, especially the shortening of psalms in liturgies
Reduction of prostrations and reverences
Use of genuflections and kneeling instead of standing during prayers
Combining Divine Liturgy with other services: marriage, funeral
Not distributing the antidoron
Elimination of using hot water during Consecration
Not having a curtain behind the Royal Doors, nor having an iconostasis
First Communion and Chrismation separated from Baptism

Truelight: I can see Rome encouraging retaining Eastern tradition when it comes to all these things. But again, Dogma is another thing.

Keep the rituals but use Western theology, does that even make sense? Again, you keep confusing Dogma with authentic Eastern or Western expressions of that same said Dogma.

 

[kitkatty]

There is only one faith - the Catholic faith. I’m assuming what you mean is how you express that one Catholic faith, correct?

Yes, that is what is meant.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

Not to mention many has suffered and have been persecuted because of the communion with Rome, and yet they persevere.

Great point. As an example, wasn’t it your fellow Ukrainian Catholics whom the Soviets in the 1930s or 1940s (I forget) tried to force to become either Ukrainian Orthodox under the MP or Latin Catholics?

When I mean neither, its not because of our own choice. As this thread has shown, we are not Catholic enough because we do not express our theology on The Fall as Original Sin, because we have married priests, because we pray for the dead and believe it is efficacious to do so but don’t think there is a fiery process behind it, because we do not classify sins as mortal and venial, because we do not recite the Filioque in the Creed.

The Orthodox deny we are Orthodox in our faith because we are in communion with the Pope of Rome.

You are right, it is sad. And the saddest part is its true.

I’m sorry, Constantine. For what it’s worth, I don’t think it’s true. No matter what some say, I think that you’re no less Catholic than any Latin and no less Orthodox than your brethren who aren’t in communion with Rome (well, as long as you’ve successfully jettisoned those Latinizations!).

Also, I still don’t understand the Eastern Catholic view on the Pope’s supremecy . Any thoughts?

Look through old threads on this forum on the matter, and read replies by Mardukm. His replies are thorough, detailed, well-supported by many citations, consistent, and extremely well-thought through. (Marduk is an Alexandrian-rite oriental Catholic - a member of the Coptic Catholic Church)

 

[theistgal]

I am really saddened by the hostility I see directed towards Eastern Catholics in this thread. So many attempts to set traps for us, instead of listening and trying to learn.

Thanks be to God that the last two Popes have not felt this way.

 

[kitkatty]

I am really saddened by the hostility I see directed towards Eastern Catholics in this thread. So many attempts to set traps for us, instead of listening and trying to learn.

Thanks be to God that the last two Popes have not felt this way.

I agree and it`s disturbing.

Maybe some of these people need to read up on just what our recent Popes have said regarding the Eastern Catholic Church`s.

 

[TrueLight]

I agree and it`s disturbing.

Maybe some of these people need to read up on just what our recent Popes have said regarding the Eastern Catholic Church`s.

Who is hostile?

Maybe “some of these people” have been asking for specific links and really haven’t gotten any.

I’m sorry if it is a sensitive issue, and I apologize if any of my questions seem like attacks.

I don’t think debating topics is hostility. Speaking for myself, I am confused about why things are a certain way and I am just trying to understand.

 

[kitkatty]

Hello Truelight, you say you are trying to learn. I understand that you are learning about Catholicism and I believe you when you say youre trying to learn. If you read through this thread you cant help but see there have been some downright hostile posts. Debate is always fine and a good thing, we can learn a lot that way. But as Theistgal stated, there have been some posts in thread that seem to be made for the sole purpose of baiting and trapping Eastern Catholics into admitting because of our theoligical approach TO THE FAITH WE SHARE IN COMMON we are not “Catholic enough”.

As far as documents, no I don`t have any particular link at hand except to suggest start with Pope JPII Orientale Lumen which I am sure you can find easily along with other documents at the Vatican website.

 

[CopticChristian]

I ask because in the non-catholic thread “bible Christians” counter the Latin church teaching of mortal and venial from 1 John by using Eastern Catholics as an example for their defense. Thanks in advance for your information.

You are kidding aren’t you. Catholic Church = Eastern Catholic/Western Catholic:thumbsup:

 

[TrueLight]

Hello Truelight, you say you are trying to learn. I understand that you are learning about Catholicism and I believe you when you say youre trying to learn. If you read through this thread you cant help but see there have been some downright hostile posts. Debate is always fine and a good thing, we can learn a lot that way. But as Theistgal stated, there have been some posts in thread that seem to be made for the sole purpose of baiting and trapping Eastern Catholics into admitting because of our theoligical approach TO THE FAITH WE SHARE IN COMMON we are not “Catholic enough”.

As far as documents, no I don`t have any particular link at hand except to suggest start with Pope JPII Orientale Lumen which I am sure you can find easily along with other documents at the Vatican website.

Well see that’s the thing. I didn’t read it in detail, but I did skim Orientale Lumen. I didn’t see things about specific doctrine. It was very general. What drew me into this thread to begin with was the Papal supremacy/Infallibility topic. I just cannot see how one can say there is one set of rules for the Eastern Church and one for the Western when it comes to the Pope. Communion is wonderful and worthy of pursuit, but at what expense?

In any case, I don’t think the thread is going to produce any more fruit for me, so I’ll bow out out. Thanks for all who posted explanations.

 

[CopticChristian]

It’s not a question of “believing in” Papal primacy, but rather what that primacy means. There is an entire spectrum between “no primacy” and absolute and unlimited dictator
of all matters within all Churches.

The current role of the Pope even in the Roman Church is new. For example, prior to Vatican I, there was minimal, if any, Papal role in appointing bishops outsidenof the US and Italy. Was this a denial of his primacy?

Also, to answer the original question, asking if easterns “believe in” mortal and venial sin really doesn’t make sense–it’s like asking about a 5/8" wrench in a metric set, or which metric wrench is the right size for a 5/8 bolt.

hawk

It is semantics. While the latins call it venial and mortal. The East calls it grave sin and intention of sin. Sin is Sin.

 

[TrueLight]

It is semantics. While the latins call it venial and mortal. The East calls it grave sin and intention of sin. Sin is Sin.

Sin is sin is what I said as a Protestant. But it’s my understanding ing that sin is not sin according to Catholic teaching. Is that not correct?

Sorry, last question before I leave the thread.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Great point. As an example, wasn’t it your fellow Ukrainian Catholics whom the Soviets in the 1930s or 1940s (I forget) tried to force to become either Ukrainian Orthodox under the MP or Latin Catholics?

The Russians want to force the Ukrainians to convert to a Church that the Soviets have control over, and that was the Russian Orthodox Church. In order to affirm their communion with Rome, or even to fake being Roman Catholics, Ukrainian Catholics injected heavy dosesof Latinizations

I’m sorry, Constantine. For what it’s worth, I don’t think it’s true. No matter what some say, I think that you’re no less Catholic than any Latin and no less Orthodox than your brethren who aren’t in communion with Rome (well, as long as you’ve successfully jettisoned those Latinizations!).

I agree, but its how we are seen. Trust me, I’ve invited Roman Catholics into the Ukrainian parish for Divine Liturgy and I got that same look Roman Catholics usually reserve for that Mormon or JW knocking on the door.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Sin is sin is what I said as a Protestant. But it’s my understanding ing that sin is not sin according to Catholic teaching. Is that not correct?

Sorry, last question before I leave the thread.

Question is what is Catholic teaching? There are 6 ritual traditions, each with their own theology. So how one doctrine of the faith is explained and understood in one is different from the next. The problem in this thread is that there is the perception that the Western version of the faith is the universal version. That is just wrong.

 

[TrueLight]

Question is what is Catholic teaching? There are 6 ritual traditions, each with their own theology. So how one doctrine of the faith is explained and understood in one is different from the next. The problem in this thread is that there is the perception that the Western version of the faith is the universal version. That is just wrong.

Okay, so call me an oath-breaker. I have to gently step back into this thread.

I have a question, and can you please answer it from a personal perspective? It might be a little difficult for you because you were first a Roman Catholic. I’d like to also hear the perspective of a Cradle Eastern Catholic, or even better someone raised Orthodox and is now an Eastern Catholic.

What does it mean to you to be in communion with Rome?

 

[jmj1984]

I haven’t seen anyone saying ‘Western theology’ is all the theology but on the contrary I have seen many eastern catholics go ‘Eastern theology only…’. All I have done and others is refer to De Fide teaching explained in councils, encyclicals and catechisms. On the contrary Eastern Catholics havent even bothered to counter this but just continously misrepresent what I and others have done whilst claiming thaat it doesnt apply to them and then not explaining why. As for hostility, this is the usual counter of some eastern catholics ‘Why are you so hostile! Woe is me etc…’ without actually answering or providing evidence for anything.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

I agree, but its how we are seen. Trust me, I’ve invited Roman Catholics into the Ukrainian parish for Divine Liturgy and I got that same look Roman Catholics usually reserve for that Mormon or JW knocking on the door.

Yeesh, that’s really disturbing. I find that kind of ignorance hard to tolerate.

I really ought to be thankful that I’ve always had enough exposure to the eastern Catholic churches to make that attitude impossible. There’s not a great abundance of eastern Catholics in my home city, but there’s a great Melkite parish that I’ve gone to: Holy Resurrection Melkite Catholic Church.

(But I’ve now moved (for grad school purposes) to another city and state much farther south, and here it’s far less multicultural than where I’m from. Here there are no eastern Christian churches of any kind - just a large quantity of various Protestant churches, one Latin Catholic parish, and one Jewish synagogue.)