Do Eastern Catholics Believe in Mortal and Venial Sin?

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Wow, I totally disagree with the above.
I don’t know about that example, the matter of the IC/ original sin, etc. is not a simple argument any way one looks at it, so I don’t think it makes a good one post demonstration.

However, I think you can see the problems that arise when some people make the claim that Roman Catholics and Orthodox believe the same things. Obviously that cannot be true, as demonstrated by this disconnect between Roman Catholics and various Eastern Catholics (who may or may not wish to be considered Orthodox ‘in communion’ with but not ‘under’ the Supreme Pontiff).

I would say it is (from one angle) a noble idealistic pursuit, but a difficult cause to put into practice.
 
I don’t know about that example, the matter of the IC/ original sin, etc. is not a simple argument any way one looks at it, so I don’t think it makes a good one post demonstration.

However, I think you can see the problems that arise when some people make the claim that Roman Catholics and Orthodox believe the same things. Obviously that cannot be true, as demonstrated by this disconnect between Roman Catholics and various Eastern Catholics (who may or may not wish to be considered Orthodox ‘in communion’ with but not ‘under’ the Supreme Pontiff).

I would say it is (from one angle) a noble idealistic pursuit, but a difficult cause to put into practice.
Thats my general feeling.
 
I don’t know about that example, the matter of the IC/ original sin, etc. is not a simple argument any way one looks at it, so I don’t think it makes a good one post demonstration.

However, I think you can see the problems that arise when some people make the claim that Roman Catholics and Orthodox believe the same things. Obviously that cannot be true, as demonstrated by this disconnect between Roman Catholics and various Eastern Catholics (who may or may not wish to be considered Orthodox ‘in communion’ with but not ‘under’ the Supreme Pontiff).

I would say it is (from one angle) a noble idealistic pursuit, but a difficult cause to put into practice.
No offense, but I think sometimes the problem is hardheartedness. Similar to what is displayed on this thread. There are RCs who hold that view, there are Eastern Christians who hold that view. But the reality is if we do open our ears, hearts and minds, we will see that our differences aren’t differences, just diversity.
 
Thats my general feeling.
Patriarch Bartholomew (a good personal friend of the current Pope, by the way) went so far as to maintain publicly that the Roman Catholic church and the Orthodox Catholic church are ontologically different. That has to mean for us to mix the two is not going to work out very well much of the time, it will be problematic. (I am always amazed that converts from Orthodoxy to Roman catholicism are notnormally required to have any additional theological training whatever, they can almost always be received through confession/communion).
 
Patriarch Bartholomew (a good personal friend of the current Pope, by the way) went so far as to maintain publicly that the Roman Catholic church and the Orthodox Catholic church are ontologically different. That has to mean for us to mix the two is not going to work out very well much of the time, it will be problematic. (I am always amazed that converts from Orthodoxy to Roman catholicism are notnormally required to have any additional theological training whatever, they can almost always be received through confession/communion).
The ides is not to mix the two but be in agreement and enter full, visible communion.
 
The idea is not to mix the two but be in agreement and enter full, visible communion.
Unfortunately, it doesn’t work out that way.

It’s been tried and it never does.

Mixing cannot be helped. When one worships with others, one should agree in beliefs. That’s why we don’t commune Anglicans and Lutherans, they are a really sincere bunch of Christians, but they do not agree.

We can’t be in communion with those who do not agree fundamentally, that’s an old Christian mandate. It creates difficulties. This thread demonstrates some aspects of that pretty well.
 
Unfortunately, it doesn’t work out that way.

It’s been tried and it never does.

Mixing cannot be helped. When one worships with others, one should agree in beliefs. That’s why we don’t commune Anglicans and Lutherans, they are a really sincere bunch of Christians, but they do not agree.

We can’t be in communion with those who do not agree fundamentally, that’s an old Christian mandate. It creates difficulties. This thread demonstrates some aspects of that pretty well.
That is the thing, we can agree. I think the problem is as I said seen in this thread. There are Latin Catholics who thing that Eastern Christians should be in every way, shape or form the same as Latin Catholics. And there are Eastern Christians (Orthodox and even some Catholics) who think the West should be in every way, shape or form like the East. We had 7 truly Ecumenical Councils, we made it work then. We can make it work again today.
 
That is the thing, we can agree. I think the problem is as I said seen in this thread. There are Latin Catholics who thing that Eastern Christians should be in every way, shape or form the same as Latin Catholics. And there are Eastern Christians (Orthodox and even some Catholics) who think the West should be in every way, shape or form like the East. We had 7 truly Ecumenical Councils, we made it work then. We can make it work again today.
Are there 7 or 21? Because I’ve heard both used. 🤷
 
Are there 7 or 21? Because I’ve heard both used. 🤷
7 are recognized by both Catholics and Orthodox together. If you really want to be technical about it, there are only two truly Ecumenical Councils where all Apostolic Christian Churches participated. After the second, the Assyrian Church of the East left. But the fact that there is at least even one means that all of the Apostolic Churches can work together, can agree with each other, and be one.
 
7 are recognized by both Catholics and Orthodox together. If you really want to be technical about it, there are only two truly Ecumenical Councils where all Apostolic Christian Churches participated. After the second, the Assyrian Church of the East left. But the fact that there is at least even one means that all of the Apostolic Churches can work together, can agree with each other, and be one.
I’d say should agree is more like it. Because not all of them agree. 😦
 
That is the thing, we can agree. I think the problem is as I said seen in this thread. There are Latin Catholics who thing that Eastern Christians should be in every way, shape or form the same as Latin Catholics. -] And there are Eastern Christians (Orthodox and even some Catholics) who think the West should be in every way, shape or form like the East. /-] We had 7 truly Ecumenical Councils, we made it work then. We can make it work again today.
Well, I agree in principal with what you say, but the Roman Catholic church is unable (unwilling also, but being unable is more the point) to go back.

Anyway, it wasn’t all roses in the first millennium either. The schism became essentially formal in 1054AD, if we went back to the church as it was in 1053AD, we would be just where they were then, one year away from another tragedy. So we would have to decide what was, or could have been the ideal about the church then, and we would not be recreating an early united church, we would be trying to create a new church the way we think it should have been, and everyone has a different idea what that should be.

It would be a disaster.

Post script: If you see a line I have struck from your comments, it is because I do not believe that the Latin West should be like the east in every way shape or form, and I don’t think I have ever met an Eastern Christian who actually thinks that. Perhaps you have, I haven’t met everyone. I was hoping you are engaging in hyperbole.

However, I do think that the Latin church theology needs to change before we can share communion. The status quo is not acceptable.

If they cannot do that (they can not, actually), that’s ok. I am not really expecting them to change, and they can do and think as they please for all time as far as I am concerned.

They should not expect to ever receive communion in an Orthodox church, not ever.
 
Well, I agree in principal with what you say, but the Roman Catholic church is unable (unwilling also, but being unable is more the point) to go back.

Anyway, it wasn’t all roses in the first millennium either. The schism became essentially formal in 1054AD, if we went back to the church as it was in 1053AD, we would be just where they were then, one year away from another tragedy. So we would have to decide what was, or could have been the ideal about the church then, and we would not be recreating an early united church, we would be trying to create a new church the way we think it should have been, and everyone has a different idea what that should be.

It would be a disaster.

Post script: If you see a line I have struck from your comments, it is because I do not believe that the Latin West should be like the east in every way shape or form, and I don’t think I have ever met an Eastern Christian who actually thinks that. Perhaps you have, I haven’t met everyone. I was hoping you are engaging in hyperbole.

However, I do think that the Latin church theology needs to change before we can share communion. The status quo is not acceptable.

If they cannot do that (they can not, actually), that’s ok. I am not really expecting them to change, and they can do and think as they please for all time as far as I am concerned.

They should not expect to ever receive communion in an Orthodox church, not ever./QUOTE]

That is pretty definite. How do you put lines through comments. I cannot seem to figure that out.
 
However, I do think that the Latin church theology needs to change before we can share communion. The status quo is not acceptable.

If they cannot do that (they can not, actually), that’s ok. I am not really expecting them to change, and they can do and think as they please for all time as far as I am concerned.

They should not expect to ever receive communion in an Orthodox church, not ever.
I’m curious as to why you do not think Latin Catholics should ever receive communion in an Orthodox church and what specific theologies need to change, not including the Filioque.
 
But 21 by the Catholic Church if I’m not mistaken. But I very well could be.
We should look at the least common denominator. I’m taking both perspectives here. The issue will not be resolved if we just keep looking at this from the point of view of one side. The 7 Ecumenical Councils, both sides agree that they are ecumenical. So that is what we will take as universally accepted. Everything else, because only one side sees it as an ecumenical council, then we shouldn’t push it to the other side to accept that point of view.
 
I’m curious as to why you do not think Latin Catholics should ever receive communion in an Orthodox church and what specific theologies need to change, not including the Filioque.
While I’m not Hesychios, I feel that I can probably answer the first question. Typically, the Orthodox do not feel that Roman Catholics should receive the Orthodox Eucharist (and vice-versa) because we do not share the same faith. For us, it is not a matter of whether one believes in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist (as is the case with the RCC), but rather whether or not we are in communion in one faith; hence, heterodox Christians should not be communing with Orthodox Christians, except under extraordinary circumstances.
 
I’m curious as to why you do not think Latin Catholics should ever receive communion in an Orthodox church and what specific theologies need to change, not including the Filioque.
I don’t want to discuss all the differences in theology for the present, there is too much for me and it has been discussed extensively all over CAF (the archives must have a lot of things to read). I think you have been exposed to some of those elsewhere. But I will say that the matter of the Papal doctrines are important because the Roman Catholic church has taken what should have been a discipline, and turned it into a dogma, which means the Orthodox have to examine the claims as dogma (instead of just shrugging it off as ‘how things are done down the road’). That is a big problem between us now and should never have been to begin with.

As to why we should not share the Holy Eucharist, I will say that the two communions work on different operating principles.

To be a Papal communicant, or Roman Catholic, one has to be under the Pope. It is usually considered necessary to believe that the individual must be under the Pope in order to be a communicant. This holds the church together. This puts all Roman Catholic bishops and laity into one organization, regulated by the central office on Vatican hill. It is an ideal they cultivate, and it is very impressive.

Bishops of the Roman Catholic church are hired, appointed to serve in cities, and transferred by the Pope, eventually retiring with the Pope’s permission, all along governing their Sees according to canonical norms established and promulgated by a Pope and his aides in Rome. Those who are not appointed directly by the Pope are appointed by others who are delegated to this responsibility by the Pope.

To be Orthodox, or in other words to commune with Orthodox, one has to believe what Orthodox believe. It has always been this way. It is why the early church excommunicated (stopped communing) some people, those people stopped believing what Orthodox Catholics believed (in some way) so they could not come to the table. The highest ideal is to receive the Apostolic Faith, preserve and follow it, and pass it on. If we should err in some way our fellows will call us on it and break communion, and we don’t want that. We could not change this principle now after 2000 years, as an operating principle it holds the communion together.

Orthodox are one faith, organized in regional synods which govern themselves. Structurally these synods act as strategic partners with their fellow synods and with a common purpose. This system was not invented at any time, there is no point in history where one could say that it started, it is simply a continuation of the early church structure into modern times. Some synods die out, some grow and bud off new ones, but they rely on mutual recognition as fellow believers and that is why the believers of one church are welcome to receive in the other churches and why the bishops of different synods can concelebrate the liturgy when they gather. There was a time when the Church at Rome, the church in Spain and the church in Gaul all participated in this same system.

It is not the norm for all Orthodox to be a part of one corporate structure, it has never been that way. Some see this as a weakness, but it has continually worked and the theology is consistently uniform.

OK, it’s messy. I know that, it is a very organic and apparently old fashioned way to run a church.

Some people think we are stagnant, we need to ‘get with the times’, we need to either ‘develop our doctrine’ or let the Pope develop it for us. At least our bishops all seem to have cell phones these days. 😛

O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal values of purity, poverty, asceticism, humility and forgiveness; a Church which has often not known how to act, but which can sing of the joy of Pascha like no other.
Father Lev Gillett
 
Post script: If you see a line I have struck from your comments, it is because I do not believe that the Latin West should be like the east in every way shape or form, and I don’t think I have ever met an Eastern Christian who actually thinks that. Perhaps you have, I haven’t met everyone. I was hoping you are engaging in hyperbole.

However, I do think that the Latin church theology needs to change before we can share communion. The status quo is not acceptable.

If they cannot do that (they can not, actually), that’s ok. I am not really expecting them to change, and they can do and think as they please for all time as far as I am concerned.

They should not expect to ever receive communion in an Orthodox church, not ever.
Well, I have met Eastern Christians who thought that the West simply had to become Eastern. They were quite scandalized to discover that the Western Rite Orthodox didn’t fast according to the same rules as the East, and felt that this, among other things, meant they were not really Orthodox. And I am thinking a few people rather than just one.

I didn’t find that very encouraging.
 
I’m curious as to why you do not think Latin Catholics should ever receive communion in an Orthodox church and what specific theologies need to change, not including the Filioque.
:confused:

Do you think Anglicans should receive in the Catholic Church?
 
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