Do Eastern Catholics need to be taught Latin theology?

[Hesychios]

Hi Rony,

Happy Easter Season to you.

Michael,

If I may enter this discussion, and I’m not intending to speak for Todd, cause Todd can speak for himself.

Why can’t we simply use these following current standard terms in English speaking countries to identify the various Communions?

Catholic Communion

Orthodox (or Eastern Orthodox) Communion

Oriental Orthodox Communion

Churches of the East [not a Communion, but two separate Churches, Assyrian and Ancient]

It seems to me that these current standard terms are appropriate as titles to identify the various Communions. What do you think?

God bless,

Rony

Simply because all of these churches and their faithful regard themselves as Orthodox. If they didn’t they would not be what they are. They would become what they thought was really Orthodox.

And all of these churches regard themselves as Catholic for the same reason.

Yet, I don’t think that anyone would dispute the fact that your churches are the only ones with a Papacy, nor would they dispute that your churches are the only ones headquartered in Rome. In fact, you will generally point to this fact with pride.

But no one likes that approach to nomenclature, so it’s out too.

Blessings,
Michael

 

[Aramis]

Hi Wil,
I don’t know how you can say this, being Orthodox I never have encountered anyone in real life who even dicusses the fable of Toll Houses, and when I was Byzantine Catholic I did not either.

Is this actually being taught or seriously discussed in your Ruthenian diocese?

Pax et Bonum,
Michael

No, but it is part of the theological baggage amongst some of the local Russian Orthodox. And it is referenced by Schmemann, in For the Life of the World: Sacraments and Orthodoxy, which IS required reading for the deacon candidates. And, having read it upon suggestion from our local Deacon Candidate, I have issues only with the details of the Toll House theory, and with his conclusions in re second and later marriages, but can see as well that that is another theologumen that divides the two: the ramifications of the sacramentality of marriage.

 

[Aramis]

Hi Rony,

Happy Easter Season to you.
Simply because all of these churches and their faithful regard themselves as Orthodox. If they didn’t they would not be what they are. They would become what they thought was really Orthodox.

And all of these churches regard themselves as Catholic for the same reason.

Yet, I don’t think that anyone would dispute the fact that your churches are the only ones with a Papacy, nor would they dispute that your churches are the only ones headquartered in Rome. In fact, you will generally point to this fact with pride.

But no one likes that approach to nomenclature, so it’s out too.

Blessings,
Michael

The Oriental Orthodox COmmunion is headed by “Pope Shenouda III, thirteenth Apostle, and Supreme Judge of the Universe.” (According to his website.)

 

[ronyodish]

Happy Easter Season to you.

Thank you

Simply because all of these churches and their faithful regard themselves as Orthodox. If they didn’t they would not be what they are. They would become what they thought was really Orthodox.

And all of these churches regard themselves as Catholic for the same reason.

Certainly when it comes to “theology”, everyone (all the Communions) will consider themselves orthodox and catholic. But, if you look at the nomenclature used in the academic/scholarship world, as “titles” and not necessarily as “theology”, the ones I gave are pretty standard “titles” that are used to differentiate between the Communions.

Yet, I don’t think that anyone would dispute the fact that your churches are the only ones with a Papacy, nor would they dispute that your churches are the only ones headquartered in Rome. In fact, you will generally point to this fact with pride.

But no one likes that approach to nomenclature, so it’s out too.

Ah, but you see my sui iuris Church has a Patriarchy, not a Papacy, which is in full communion with the sui iuris Church that has the Papacy. My sui iuris Church is headquartered in Babylon, not Rome, which is in full communion with the sui iuris Church headquartered in Rome.

This is the ecclesiology of the Catholic Church as a Full Communion of sui iuris Churches. The One Church as a Full Communion of many Churches.

God bless,

Rony

 

[ronyodish]

I need to add this paragraph to what I wrote above:

The Bishop of Rome holds Primacy among all the Bishops of the world, and so this is where the Church of Rome is important, in that all the Particular Churches of the world in full communion with the Church of Rome recognize her as holding Primacy among all.

God bless,

Rony

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Hi Rony,

Happy Easter Season to you.
Simply because all of these churches and their faithful regard themselves as Orthodox. If they didn’t they would not be what they are. They would become what they thought was really Orthodox.

And all of these churches regard themselves as Catholic for the same reason.

Yet, I don’t think that anyone would dispute the fact that your churches are the only ones with a Papacy, nor would they dispute that your churches are the only ones headquartered in Rome. In fact, you will generally point to this fact with pride.

But no one likes that approach to nomenclature, so it’s out too.

Blessings,
Michael

In the past 12 months I have seen this discussion play out in several forums - both on CAF and elsewhere… As a technical point of clarification I certainly understand how some Eastern Christians seem hesitant to appropriate to those of us in communion with the See of Rome the title “Catholic”… In all irony it was a Coptic priest who would only refer to Orientals as “Orthodox” and referred to all Chalcedonian Orthodox as “Greeks” that sort of underscored for me how important it is for people to (1) own a term and (2) defend against its re-appropriation. On the same score, Episcopalians and Lutherans that want to push the envelope and insist they are Catholics (Anglo-Catholics and Evangelical Catholics) rather annoy me. (My own problem, I usually say nothing.)

That as the case may be, when conversing in the Anglophone world, the likelihood that when, travelling around, I approach the front desk of a hotel and ask for directions to “the nearest Catholic Church” … Well it will be an oddity of the first degree if that hotel clerk would from their beg for points of further clarification…

“Well by Catholic do you mean the churches in communion with the see of Rome or a parish of one of the autonomous churches in the Greco-Slavonic chalcedonian tradition of which there are 14 in total unimpeded communion with lesser parties and factions in sometimes canonically ambiguous states or per chance you are meaning the Oriental Orthodox which are similarly self-governing… Or on the same score are you an Anglican or a Lutheran seeking a church that would self-identify itself as a church that is ‘catholic’ with a lower case ‘c’ as per the Nicene Creed which they recite…?”

No, the genteel front desk clerk is going to direct you to walk two blocks east to Sacred Heart Catholic Church… And no Orthodox staying in that hotel looking for a parish of their own - even if they understand themselves to be catholic - would first ask for where “the closest Catholic Church is” if they wanted to not spend 10+ minutes (at least) giving a history lesson and explaining ecclesiology.

Come to think about it, at coffee hours at Orthodox parishes I have attended, when mention was made “of those Catholics” no one ever needed clarification.

So if it makes you feel any better… Well all of us can give you assurance that by simply using “Catholic” when discussing those of us in communion with the Holy See, we will not take it as a capitulation or a surrender on your part, or an affirmation of our beliefs on ecclesiology. We will just pragmatically understand that it is an expedience and not any sign you are offering concession… And with that understanding, maybe, just maybe we could go a few weeks or even months without re-hashing all this.

Sound fair?

 

[ASimpleSinner]

What do you mean by “Roman Communion”?

He means Catholic.

 

[dvdjs]

Hesychios, you write as though concerned about propriety:

I simply have no way of addressing this without offending someone.

But then you also write:

Yes, that has been at least partially the case in my experience … in Uniate parishes I was exposed to.

Have you really forgotten Important Forum Information - post #11 on the use of “Uniate” ?

Perhaps you also forgot post #2 here.

You had, at that time, a nice sense of why many Greek Catholics find the term offensive. It should not surprise you that many still do. Why the indifference Important Information and to giving offense?

 

[Apotheoun]

Hi Todd,
I simply have no way of addressing this without offending someone.

I would call it the Papal Communion if I had my way, but that’s sure to tick off somebody.

If I call it the Roman Communion and I offend others, like yourself, whom I respect greatly.

If I call it the Catholic Communion still others object, myself included. I have to respect myself too.

I cannot find a compromise term everyone will agree on.

Sorry to have offended you.

Michael

Michael,

Thank you for responding to my post, and rest assured that I am not offended by your comments.

I would never ask you to compromise your beliefs, but I would explain my ecclesiological viewpoint in this way: I am not in the “Roman Communion”; instead, I am a Ruthenian Catholic, i.e., an Orthodox Christian, in communion with Rome.

As I see it, the Catholic Church includes the Latin and Eastern Catholic Churches, which are all presently in full communion with each other, but also includes the Orthodox Churches not yet in full communion with the bishop of Rome, “. . . for in every valid celebration of the Eucharist the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church becomes truly present” [CDF *Communionis Notio, no. 17]. In other words, as true particular Churches the Orthodox are Catholic, and hopefully through ecumenical dialogue full ecclesial communion will be restored between the whole of the East and the Western Church. Sadly, at least for the present, both East and West are wounded, for the lack of full ecclesial communion “. . . hinders the complete fulfillment of [the Church’s] universality in history” [CDF *Communionis Notio, no. 17].

God bless,
Todd

 

[elt1956]

There is a real conundrum here.

From what I have been reading, Eastern Catholics are supposed to accept Latin theological constructs as valid and equal to their own. They cannot challenge or refute them, or be cafeteria Catholics.

How can they do this without knowing what these doctrines are?

How can they do this without being instructed that they accept all Latin theological constructs?

Doesn’t this leave Eastern Catholics open to attack that they are not good Catholics, such as we find here so often? Shouldn’t they have a properly detailed instruction in the Latin theology so they know to what they will be assenting? Why keep them ignorant?
*
Michael

*[Moderator Note: This discussion on Eastern Catholics being taught Latin theology was sufficiently off-topic to create a new thread from them. Please http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=208022”]see here for the original discussion on Orthodox in RCIA.]

Hello. Am just reading my first book about the early split between the Latin Roman Catholic Church and the Greek Orthodox Church. Has the Greek Orthodox Church accepted the Western Pope as infallible in doctrine, faith and morals? And has the doctrine of the Trinity ever been settled between the two churches? The book is called “When Jesus Became God” by Rubenstein. To me it is a well written very objective view of what happened in the church in the 300s. Peace.

 

[wjp984]

I think it is good to understand both points of view. I’m Ruthenian Catholic, learned both since I went to Roman Catholic school as well as going to a Ruthenian parish as a child and then I decided I am more comfortable with the Latin point of view on some issues and more comfortable with the Eastern point of view on others. To my understanding this is perfectly fine as long as I dont consider one better than the other. However, I still think the Divine Liturgy is really nice and there are wonderful things about Eastern Catholicism and although I made an entire thread arguing about it, it only resulted in me being convinved that I still appreciate and like my Ruthenian Catholocism and will one day get involved with it again.

 

[elt1956]

Michael,

If I may enter this discussion, and I’m not intending to speak for Todd, cause Todd can speak for himself.

Why can’t we simply use these following current standard terms in English speaking countries to identify the various Communions?

Catholic Communion

Orthodox (or Eastern Orthodox) Communion

Oriental Orthodox Communion

Churches of the East [not a Communion, but two separate Churches, Assyrian and Ancient]

It seems to me that these current standard terms are appropriate as titles to identify the various Communions. What do you think?

God bless,

Rony

Hello. I am new to this forum and you are going to just love my question. Would someone give me the various definitions for the communions listed? Does it have to do with the agreement/non-agreement of Christ’s Divinity? I have read only one book regarding the diference between the Latin Church and the Greek Orthodox Church, so I don’t know much. Thanks.

 

[ronyodish]

elt1956,

Welcome

Would someone give me the various definitions for the communions listed? Does it have to do with the agreement/non-agreement of Christ’s Divinity? I have read only one book regarding the diference between the Latin Church and the Greek Orthodox Church, so I don’t know much.

It is more than just the theology on Christ. But with regards this issue, recent agreements have been signed between the Pope and the various Oriental Orthodox Churches, as well as, the Assyrian Church of the East. So, from our Catholic perspective, the theology on Christ is no longer a problematic issue with these Churches. As far as the Eastern Orthodox, this issue was not a problem with them.

The Greek Orthodox Church represents one of the Churches in the Eastern Orthodox Communion. Here is some info.: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church

Some info. on the Oriental Orthodox Communion: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Orthodoxy

Some info. on the Assyrian Church of the East: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_Church_of_the_East

The Catholic Communion includes the Latin Church (aka Roman Catholic Church) as well as the Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches. Here is some info. on the Eastern/Oriental Catholic Churches: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Catholic_Churches

I’m sorry, I didn’t have time to give you a descriptive definition of each of the Communions. I hope this info. is good for now, and you can always ask further questions.

God bless,

Rony

 

[elt1956]

elt1956,

Welcome

It is more than just the theology on Christ. But with regards this issue, recent agreements have been signed between the Pope and the various Oriental Orthodox Churches, as well as, the Assyrian Church of the East. So, from our Catholic perspective, the theology on Christ is no longer a problematic issue with these Churches. As far as the Eastern Orthodox, this issue was not a problem with them.

The Greek Orthodox Church represents one of the Churches in the Eastern Orthodox Communion. Here is some info.: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church

Some info. on the Oriental Orthodox Communion: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Orthodoxy

Some info. on the Assyrian Church of the East: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_Church_of_the_East

The Catholic Communion includes the Latin Church (aka Roman Catholic Church) as well as the Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches. Here is some info. on the Eastern/Oriental Catholic Churches: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Catholic_Churches

I’m sorry, I didn’t have time to give you a descriptive definition of each of the Communions. I hope this info. is good for now, and you can always ask further questions.

God bless,

Rony

Thanks Rony. I will check these out. I didn’t realize I know so little about the Eastern Catholic Church and I also didn’t know there were so many forms. A lot to learn. Many thanks again. Peace.

 

[elt1956]

I am totally confused as to the difference in Eastern Catholic Churches, Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, etc. etc. etc. Can someone give a list of the churches not of the Latin rite that are in confomity with the church in Rome? Thannks. Peace

 

[Auntie_M]

I am new to this post and only a Catholic of 5 years now. I love the Church, but have never really read anything on the Eastern or “Orthodox”. I really don’t understand what the difference is. Please help.