Do evangelical men struggle less w sexual sin?

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As_for_my_House said:
I do think that he believes that his" brothers and sisters" have conquered sin because the Blood of Christ has washed over them and that they are no longer a slave to sin so they do not become addicted to sin ever again but apparently Catholics are still bound to sin because we practice works , rituals like the Sacraments, the Mass, etc - like the Jews.
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Come to think of it, it helps a lot when you can just boot out any obvious sinners at regular intervals.
 
Xantippe said:
Also, just so you know in advance how this is going to play out, your son is going to say that any disgraced Evangelical Protestant “isn’t really Christian.”

In logic, this is called the “no true Scotsman” fallacy.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

I grew up around this idea that “Christians” were inherently much better people than non-“Christians,” and anybody who behaved badly “wasn’t a real Christian.”

It’s an attractive idea, but it certainly doesn’t reflect the world as it is. There are awful people who are Christian (even “saved” Evangelical Christians!) and very good people who are not practicing Christians. It also means that we are always needing to whittle down the guest list for the Supper of the Lamb, every time we discover the failings of our fellow believers.
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Well said.
 
ltwin said:
As an evangelical man in his 20s, I can say that your son is wrong. His church may preach that real Christians don’t struggle with sin, and as a result, the members don’t admit to any private sins lest their salvation be put into question.
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Yup.

I used to attend an Evangelical men’s group. We had several accountability questions, one of which was about looking at any sexually inappropriate material, there was no man in that group that didn’t acknowledge having participated at some point. Not necessarily pornography, but could have been a lingerie catalog or bumping around the computer having items pop up, etc.

To the OP: I would suggest being gentle with your son, so as to provide a level of comfort should he desire to return to the faith.
 
I’m a former Protestant. I have to say that Catholics are more open about their struggle with sin. Heck, we have a whole sacrament devoted to it. Catholics believe that even after original sin is wiped out, we still struggle with concupiscence.

On the other hand, Protestant’s believe they’re saved by faith alone, and when you question them on how works fit into the equation, they’ll often say that you’re saved by faith, and then your good works follow necessarily AFTER you have faith… that is, the good works don’t save you, but after you’re saved, good works will inevitably follow.

So if you’re struggling with serious sin after you’ve been “saved”… well… guess what? You may not be saved at all!

Here’s a very popular evangelical preacher basically saying the same thing. Notice particularly his personal interpretation at 1:30-1:40. Wonder why a Protestant wouldn’t be open about a long term struggle with concupiscence? It’s right there.
youtube.com/watch?v=-YPhY0dL00Y

Your son may be seeing things through rose colored glasses. Sorry, but all the evidence-- even from Protestants themselves-- shows that they struggle with pornography and sexual sin, and there’s even evidence (from conservative Protestants) that they have HIGHER rates of sex abuse than Catholic clergy!

This is from Evangelical/Protestant sources:

“Seventy percent of American men ages 18–34 view Internet pornography once a month. . . Don’t assume that porn isn’t a problem in the church. One evangelical leader was skeptical of survey findings that said 50 percent of Christian men have looked at porn recently. So he surveyed his own congregation. He found that 60 percent had done so within the past year, and 25 percent within the past 30 days. Other surveys reveal that one in three visitors to adult websites are women.”

christianitytoday.com/ct/2008/march/20.7.html

The following study was done by an Evangelical Christian group:

"The statistics for Christian men between 18 and 30 years old are particularly striking:

77 percent look at pornography at least monthly.
36 percent view pornography on a daily basis.
32 percent admit being addicted to pornography (and another 12 percent think they may be).
The statistics for middle-aged Christian men (ages 31 to 49) are no less disturbing:

77 percent looked at pornography while at work in the past three months.
64 percent view pornography at least monthly.
18 percent admit being addicted to pornography (and another 8 percent think they may be)."

charismanews.com/us/45671-shocker-study-shows-most-christian-men-are-into-porn

Also, numerous studies have found that sex abuse is higher among Protestant congregations (and btw, sex abuse is actually highest among secular school teachers/workers-- even higher than both Protestant and Catholic clergy).

Some liberal sources (always beware of liberal bias of course):
nytimes.com/2007/06/16/us/16protestant.html?_r=0
theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/29/protestants-abuse-catholics-methodist-church

But here’s a conservative Protestant source discussing sex abuse being worse among Protestants than Catholics:

“Amazing words from one of Billy Graham’s grandsons, a Liberty University law professor who investigates sexual abuse among Evangelicals . . . While comparing evangelicals to Catholics on abuse response, ”I think we are worse,” he said at the Religion Newswriters Association conference, saying too many evangelicals had “sacrificed the souls” of young victims. / / Protestants can be very arrogant when pointing to Catholics,” said Tchividjian, a grandson of evangelist Billy Graham and executive director of Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment (GRACE), which has investigated sex abuse allegations.”

religionnews.com/2013/09/26/billy-grahams-grandson-evangelicals-worse-catholic-church-sex-abuse/
theamericanconservative.com/dreher/protestants-worse-than-catholics-billy-graham-grandson-abuse/

Here’s a secular scientific source:
“According to the best available data (which is pretty good mostly coming from a comprehensive report by the John Jay College of Criminal Justice in 2004 as well as several other studies), 4% of Catholic priests in the USA sexually victimized minors during the past half century. No evidence has been published at this time that states that this number is higher than clergy from other religious traditions. The 4% figure appears lower than school teachers during the same time frame and certainly less than offenders in the general population of men.”
psychologytoday.com/blog/do-the-right-thing/201003/six-important-points-you-dont-hear-about-regarding-clergy-sexual

“We don’t see the Catholic Church as a hotbed of this or a place that has a bigger problem than anyone else,” said Ernie Allen, president of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. “I can tell you without hesitation that we have seen cases in many religious settings, from traveling evangelists to mainstream ministers to rabbis and others.”
newsweek.com/priests-commit-no-more-abuse-other-males-70625

Lastly, if he has a problem with celibate priests, ask him where does he see Protestants fulfilling this scripture?
“Not all can accept this word, but only those to whom it is granted. Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of God. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it” Matt. 19:11–12

Who are the Protestants that are renouncing marriage for the sake of the Kingdom? Can he give me a list of them?
 
As_for_my_House said:
I do think that he believes that his" brothers and sisters" have conquered sin because the Blood of Christ has washed over them and that they are no longer a slave to sin so they do not become addicted to sin ever again but apparently Catholics are still bound to sin because we practice works , rituals like the Sacraments, the Mass, etc - like the Jews.

I have to say, I’ve visited the house church a few times now and it really does look good on the surface. So warm, friendly, open, joyful, very down to earth folks and no one acting weird in any detectable way. Most are married with generously sized families.
It seems very Utopian, very Christian.

My only criticism of the church so far, and this I formed from listening to the preaching sitting through the service, is that they have a truncated, undeveloped and immature understanding of Christianity. I have begun to call them baby Christians, at least this group seems to be. I should add that half the congregattion is Asian, mostly Chinese immigrants so maybe it’s because there is a language barrier. The teachings are Bible based, too literal and superficial. The songs(hymns) are silly and strike me as amateur or childish compared to our hymns, of course there are some exceptions like" Amazing Grace".

But I am highly impressed with the fellowship aspect and still wonder why we don’t have this in our Church . And I am still wondering if my son could be correct that these men don’t suffer the burdens of sexual addictions.
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This is a good analogy (I used to call them kindergarten church). These types of churches do VERY WELL at getting non-believers, or those who’ve fallen away from the church a good initial step back. A much better job than most liturgical churches. They also tend to have pretty high turnover rates, as once the newness wears off, many go searching for a place which has a deeper theological well from which to draw.
 
So yes, Protestants struggle with lust and pornography at high rates-- and this is admitted openly by conservative Evangelical/Protestant leaders.

And yes, in fact, Protestant clergy have sex abuse at rates comparable to, and possibly higher than Catholic clergy. And secular school teachers have higher sex abuse than either Protestants OR Catholics.

And yes, Jesus said that there would be people who would renounce marriage for the sake of the Kingdom… yet I had never met a single Protestant who willingly renounced marriage for the sake of the Kingdom.

But your other question-- why is your husband not zealous? I don’t know. As a former Protestant, I must say that Protestants are generally much more zealous for their faith than Catholics.

Personally, I think it’s because Protestant leaders tend to be more challenging than Catholic clergy. Catholic homilies are typically very soft, “nice,” and effeminate. Listen to John MacArthur rail in his sermons and challenge his listeners. That gets men excited. Men want to “do battle.” Yet Catholic homilies, even from very good orthodox priests, tend to be wwwaaaayyyy softer and “nicer.” Men don’t want to pick up their sword and go to battle for the soft effeminate church.

Protestants also often talk about hell. The men are challenged to go out and save souls. Yet today even Pope Benedict has said we’ve abandoned the teaching of hell and thus have lost our missionary spirit.

I much prefer Protestant sermons and zeal to Catholic homilies. But I stick to the Catholic Church because I’ve researched it and found that it really is true, and Protestantism really is false.
 
KEP1983 said:
So yes, Protestants struggle with lust and pornography at high rates-- and this is admitted openly by conservative Evangelical/Protestant leaders.

And yes, in fact, Protestant clergy have sex abuse at rates comparable to, and possibly higher than Catholic clergy. And secular school teachers have higher sex abuse than either Protestants OR Catholics.

And yes, Jesus said that there would be people who would renounce marriage for the sake of the Kingdom… yet I had never met a single Protestant who willingly renounced marriage for the sake of the Kingdom.

But your other question-- why is your husband not zealous? I don’t know. As a former Protestant, I must say that Protestants are generally much more zealous for their faith than Catholics.

Personally, I think it’s because Protestant leaders tend to be more challenging than Catholic clergy. Catholic homilies are typically very soft, “nice,” and effeminate. Listen to John MacArthur rail in his sermons and challenge his listeners. That gets men excited. Men want to “do battle.” Yet Catholic homilies, even from very good orthodox priests, tend to be wwwaaaayyyy softer and “nicer.” Men don’t want to pick up their sword and go to battle for the soft effeminate church.

Protestants also often talk about hell. The men are challenged to go out and save souls. Yet today even Pope Benedict has said we’ve abandoned the teaching of hell and thus have lost our missionary spirit.

I much prefer Protestant sermons and zeal to Catholic homilies. But I stick to the Catholic Church because I’ve researched it and found that it really is true, and Protestantism really is false.
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You make some excellent points in your post. My friend a male convert from the Lutheran Church calls the Catholic homilies “powder puff” sermons. He does not mean that remotely insulting but misses the Biblical zeal in his Lutheran Church.

That says, like many converts, his passion for the faith Catholic amazes me and inspired me during some dismal days in the Catholic Church with the clergy abuse issues. He assured me it’s not a Catholic problem alone.

We are good friends to this day.
 
If you compare a catholic and evangelical (same level of devotion to their faith), I would say the Catholic struggle less.

it’s their teachings. Some protestants believe that porn and masturbation is alright within a marriage as long as you have it under control (LOL as if it’s that easy). Catholics shun it completely. And anyone would know that porn will change the way you view at women, even a teeny bit.

Catholics have the TOB, which might change the way a guy views love and lust. They also have confession. They are more open with stuff like this. And especially since they view sexual sins as mortal sins, unlike people who view all sins are equal, they are more likely to reform and help other men

Just my 2 cents…don’t mean to offend protestants
 
Xantippe said:
It’s possible, because it’s really really small. I get the feeling that our local Latin Mass has a similarly vibrant community–but it consists of about 200 people tops.

Once you have a large enough body of people, you get something more reminiscent of a Greyhound terminal.

Scale is important.
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Yes, I would say that they are about 200 members tops and since they have no obligation for Sunday worship only about 75 members show are any given time.
 
As_for_my_House said:
Yes, I would say that they are about 200 members tops and since they have no obligation for Sunday worship only about 75 members show are any given time.
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Bingo.

For related reasons, I’m in a mother’s group that is capped at around 26 moms plus kids. They want to make sure that mothers and kids have a chance to form relationships by seeing the same limited number of people over and over–which they wouldn’t if the group were huge and each event drew a completely different assortment of people.

Same deal.
 
KEP1983 said:
But your other question-- why is your husband not zealous? I don’t know. As a former Protestant, I must say that Protestants are generally much more zealous for their faith than Catholics.

Personally,** I think it’s because Protestant leaders tend to be more challenging than Catholic clergy. Catholic homilies are typically very soft, “nice,” and effeminate. Listen to John MacArthur rail in his sermons and challenge his listeners. That gets men excited. Men want to “do battle.” Yet Catholic homilies, even from very good orthodox priests, tend to be wwwaaaayyyy softer and “nicer.” Men don’t want to pick up their sword and go to battle for the soft effeminate church.**

Protestants also often talk about hell. The men are challenged to go out and save souls. Yet today even Pope Benedict has said we’ve abandoned the teaching of hell and thus have lost our missionary spirit.

.
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Wow, I totally get this! This too is probably why my son is attracted to the zealous masculinity of this Church. My husband is very passive, (raised without a father) and I think my sons missed out on the deeply masculine, gonna go catch me dinner, gonna defend the home front side of masculinity. Seriously though, my husband has never been a lay down the law, disciplinarian type he never disciplined my sons. I did all that, My sons know this say that they missed having a father that would lay down the law them in when they went rogue.
 
He is praying for his father but he wanst him to join his church because he thinks that it will change my husband and make him more zealous. You has given me some good questions so I will ask him each until I receive an answer that I can’t debate. Then I coming back here again.👍
 
As_for_my_House said:
I have to say, I’ve visited the house church a few times now and it really does look good on the surface. So warm, friendly, open, joyful, very down to earth folks and no one acting weird in any detectable way. Most are married with generously sized families.
It seems very Utopian, very Christian.

But I am highly impressed with the fellowship aspect and still wonder why we don’t have this in our Church . And I am still wondering if my son could be correct that these men don’t suffer the burdens of sexual addictions.
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Evangelicals struggle with sin the same way Catholics do. And evangelical pastors and leaders have been all over the news regarding sexual sins as well. 😦 the only difference is, in my experience, evangelicals can have a tendency to justify or hide sin because there is no system in place for confessing sin, and because sin can’t be authoritatively defined if the Bible (which each individual interprets personally) is the only authority.

I wanted to comment on this other portion of your post too. I am coming out of a very similar church. We had less than ten families in our congregation, all generously sized. We were all very close to one another and helped one another for births and whenever anyone needed anything, building barns and helping people move, cleaning homes for a member with cancer, donating money or clothing, etc. We ate together after each service. All the children played together. The fellowship was amazing. BUT, the fellowship only goes so far. In evangelicalism, there are so many fractures, theologically. No one can agree even what constitutes a sin, and no one has any real authority to say definitively that someone is sinning. As a result, relationships can only go so deep, because once you start to disagree on what is sin or what the a Bible teaches, the questions become unresolvable. In the course of three years at that church, we saw over half the congregation leave at varying times and new people come in, all because they wanted “better teaching”, which is code for teaching that more closely aligns with their own personal interpretations of scripture. We also were so focused on “doing life together” that I often left the services “starved” if you will for the presence of God and his Word. This was something that took a few years to realize I was experiencing it.

I loved that church and the people there. They were genuinely searching to do God’s will. And I love my evangelical heritage for giving me a love for the Bible and for God. But the dynamic fellowship can’t replace the depth of wisdom, beauty, and truth that the Catholic Church possesses. 🙂
 
Hopefully your son will widen his range of what personality styles he considers chic in his family!

When time permits I frequent more than one kind of church (though I only use Catholic sacraments).
 
As_for_my_House said:
:confused:
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I actually think the first part of Vic’s post was pretty insightful.

It’s not very loving of your son to decide that his father’s whole personality is “wrong.”

And come to think of it, it might be a good idea for you to say something to your son like, “I know that your dad’s style of religion isn’t yours, but he does his best and he loves you.”
 
Xantippe said:
I actually think the first part of Vic’s post was pretty insightful.

It’s not very loving of your son to decide that his father’s whole personality is “wrong.”

And come to think of it, it might be a good idea for you to say something to your son like, “I know that your dad’s style of religion isn’t yours, but he does his best and he loves you.”
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Right - my husband is very faithful, but it’s not super apparent on the surface. He doesn’t do a lot of the “Jesus talk.” But he walks the walk.

It’s really easy to love bomb newcomers and engage in superficial pious practices. And that’s why churches with only that have very close to 100% turnover every five years or so. People chase the high somewhere else. 🤷
 
Xantippe said:
I actually think the first part of Vic’s post was pretty insightful.

It’s not very loving of your son to decide that his father’s whole personality is “wrong.”

And come to think of it, it might be a good idea for you to say something to your son like, “I know that your dad’s style of religion isn’t yours, but he does his best and he loves you.”
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I think my son’s concern for his dad IS very loving.

I don’t think that my son sees this a personality style. He is judging by the fruit. When he sees his dad embrace a things that christians should at least try to turn away from, for example, my husband still listens to music that has very foul language in it . He drink then acts out of control. I guess this upsets my son to see his dad acting like a bad teenager. These are just two examples there are more, including my husband’s attitude that boys have no control when it comes to sex, if available they will have sex… He has not been able to be a strong role model for my sons. And my son gets that. He loves him dearly and wants better for him.

My son knows his dad loves him and he loves his dad but I’m not going to tell him that dad is doing his best when I don’t even believe it myself.

My son blames the Catholic Church for not growing his dad up because he feels that there is no accountability by Catholics to their members, this is something that his church group provides.

It is because of his dad’s behavior and lack of zeal for things of the Lord that my son says that he in not saved not because his personality style.

I can remind my son that his dad has come a long way from where he was when we first met. That would be true.
)
I think that this point of discussion disregards the fact,( one I truly believe) that it is the Lord who IS leading both my husband and my son, to His Truth. And like a babe’s birth it will be messy, painful and difficult but hopefully both son and dad are being born into a real relationship with Christ.

I’ve gotten a great deal of insight from the posters as to why my son has this POV and ideas about how to be there when his bubble bursts. My poor husband is still a mystery to me but he is in God’s hands.
 
As_for_my_House said:
I think my son’s concern for his dad IS very loving.

I don’t think that my son sees this a personality style. He is judging by the fruit. When he sees his dad embrace a things that christians should at least try to turn away from, for example, my husband still listens to music that has very foul language in it . He drink then acts out of control. I guess this upsets my son to see his dad acting like a bad teenager. These are just two examples there are more, including my husband’s attitude that boys have no control when it comes to sex, if available they will have sex… He has not been able to be a strong role model for my sons. And my son gets that. He loves him dearly and wants better for him.

My son knows his dad loves him and he loves his dad but I’m not going to tell him that dad is doing his best when I don’t even believe it myself.

My son blames the Catholic Church for not growing his dad up because he feels that there is no accountability by Catholics to their members, this is something that his church group provides.

It is because of his dad’s behavior and lack of zeal for things of the Lord that my son says that he in not saved not because his personality style.

I can remind my son that his dad has come a long way from where he was when we first met. That would be true.
)
I think that this point of discussion disregards the fact,( one I truly believe) that it is the Lord who IS leading both my husband and my son, to His Truth. And like a babe’s birth it will be messy, painful and difficult but hopefully both son and dad are being born into a real relationship with Christ.

I’ve gotten a great deal of insight from the posters as to why my son has this POV and ideas about how to be there when his bubble bursts. My poor husband is still a mystery to me but he is in God’s hands.
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Bummer.

How about, “Yes, dear, and your church has 200 (or however many) people in it total. I hope there will be more people than that in heaven.”
 
A sister of my friend is attending a group of millenial evangelical christian,where in the pastor told members that each female member must date each male member and vice versa .its up to them ,if they sex will be involved .then,after each member dated everybody in the congregation,he/she will decide whom he/she wants to marry.I was floored hearing about this ,but thats their version of christianity . i know of pastors,who have extra marital affairs and many hard core evangelicals,who are involved in adultery,as well.since they believe in OSAS , that’s why theyre doing it!
 
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