Do Evangelicals Believe in Any Sacraments?

[Jon_S_1]

Well, there are different Protestant traditions and evangelicals within those traditions will reflect their tradition’s historical view on the sacraments. I don’t know why you seem surprised by the fact that different Protestant churches have different beliefs
Evangelicalism is not a single church with a single belief. In fact, mainline Protestantism is not a single church. It is also divided between Episcopalians, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Congregationalists in the United Church of Christ, mainline Baptists, and the Disciples of Christ. All of these mainline churches have their own takes on the sacraments.

Why is the relativism, and schism described here, not a problem!!

 

[SteveVH]

I am of the Christ is the sole mediator camp. Intercessory prayer is when you pray on behalf of yourself or another person. Asking for intercessory prayer is not the same as asking for a person to mediate between you and God. Christ already fulfills that. It is prayer that you pray for others who are going through spiritual battles. As we pray for others, we join them in spiritual warfare.

And do you believe that your prayers for someone else have an effect? Do your prayers have any influence? Why don’t you tell them just pray to Christ themselves?

I ask people in my church to pray for me. That is not the same thing as praying to a person who is deceased and presumably in Heaven to ask them to pray to God on my behalf.

Why? God is the God of the living, not the dead. We are all part of the Body of Christ, both on earth and in heaven. What is wrong with someone in heaven praying for you when it is fine for someone on earth to pray for you?

No. I just don’t need a Catholic priest to absolve me of my sins in the persona of Christ.

According to who?

I can go to God directly in prayer and confess my sin. The absolution has already been declared and is recorded in God’s unchanging Word.

If absolution has already been declared then what is the point of confessing? Just good manners?

“Modern evangelicalism” resulted from the split in the mainline churches…

…there are different Protestant traditions and evangelicals within those traditions

Evangelicalism is not a single church with a single belief. In fact, mainline Protestantism is not a single church. It is also divided between Episcopalians, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Congregationalists in the United Church of Christ, mainline Baptists, and the Disciples of Christ. All of these mainline churches have their own takes on the sacraments.

Doesn’t that bother you?

 

[ltwin]

And do you believe that your prayers for someone else have an effect? Do your prayers have any influence?

Yes. The prayers of the righteous are effective.

Why don’t you tell them just pray to Christ themselves?

I don’t understand your question. All Christian prayer should be to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Why? God is the God of the living, not the dead. We are all part of the Body of Christ, both on earth and in heaven. What is wrong with someone in heaven praying for you when it is fine for someone on earth to pray for you?

Nothing would be wrong with it. However, I’d love to ask my Grandmother, who was a godly woman, to pray for me. She was one of those prayer warriors. Of course, she’s been dead now for about over a decade, and I’m not able to ask her.

Of course, all those who are in Christ, whether dead or alive, share in the fellowship of the Spirit. We simply cannot ask those who are dead to pray for us, nor could we even be sure if they could hear us if we did ask.

According to who?

According to the New Testament. Jesus taught us to pray to the Father, “forgive us our debts.” He told of us of the tax collector who humbled himself and prayed “God have mercy on me, a sinner” and went home justified.

If absolution has already been declared then what is the point of confessing? Just good manners?

Because the same parts of Scripture that pronounce absolution connect this absolution to confession, such as 1 John 1:9,

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Doesn’t that bother you?

Of course.

 

[SteveVH]

Yes. The prayers of the righteous are effective.

In what way?

I don’t understand your question. All Christian prayer should be to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Well let me rephrase that for you. When someone asks you to pray for them why don’t you ask them to just pray to God themselves? Why do they need you to pray for them? Will it do any good? And if so, what good will it do?

Nothing would be wrong with it. However, I’d love to ask my Grandmother, who was a godly woman, to pray for me. She was one of those prayer warriors. Of course, she’s been dead now for about over a decade, and I’m not able to ask her.

Of course, all those who are in Christ, whether dead or alive, share in the fellowship of the Spirit. We simply cannot ask those who are dead to pray for us, nor could we even be sure if they could hear us if we did ask.

Do you believe that we will participate in the divinity of God when we reach heaven? Why do you believe that the saints in heaven cannot hear your prayers? Even your Grandma? I ask my mother and my brother to pray for me all the time, just as if they were standing next to me.

According to the New Testament. Jesus taught us to pray to the Father, “forgive us our debts.”

He said more than that. He said “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.” A very dangerous prayer to pray. This doesn’t say “only confess your sins to the Father”. It places a qualification on our own forgiveness. We must forgive if we are to be forgiven. The Church has never taught anything different.

He told of us of the tax collector who humbled himself and prayed “God have mercy on me, a sinner” and went home justified.

The purpose of this story is to demonstrate that God’s mercy extends to everyone, even the despised tax collector, who in this case, was repentant. It has nothing to do with whether or not we should confess our sins.

Because the same parts of Scripture that pronounce absolution connect this absolution to confession, such as 1 John 1:9,

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Yes, this would be a very Catholic thing to say. Absolution is not pronounced until the confession is made. You seemed to be saying that absolution has already been pronounced.

Jesus did something else as well. He built a Church and specifically gave that Church the power and authority to forgive sin:

"He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. “If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.” (John 20:22-23)

Now, if Jesus meant us to confess our sins directly to God then why did he give his Church this authority? Keep in mind that this was only the second time that God ever breathed upon man. It was an important event, to say the least.

 

[Zenas]

It first starts at Baptism where one is encouraged to confess their previous sins immediately prior to their Baptism to the entire Church.

After that, every now and then after being told how sinful we are and being convicted of our failures, we are encouraged to go to the front where the Elders can pray for you. It gives you the opportunity to confess your struggles.

Biggest of all are the small groups run by the Church. Like we say, “we’re not one big Church, we’re also hundreds of little ones.” These groups are where we sign confidentiality agreements with those who can hold us accountable. They try to get a good mix of older couples, younger couples, singles, etc. That’s where we confess the most to be healed.

I’ve been a Southern Baptist for 72 years and I have never seen any of this.

 

[Zenas]

In front of everyone. At Baptism.

Never saw that done either.

 

[Zenas]

Baptists don’t believe in sacraments.

 

[SteveVH]

I’ve been a Southern Baptist for 72 years and I have never seen any of this.

Seems a little odd to me as well. What I don’t understand is if people have difficulty confessing their sins to a priest, in a very private and safe environment, why would they feel comfortable bearing their sins, especially those that are grave and rather intimate, to all the folks standing around at the church or even in a small group?

I just simply don’t believe that anyone gives a good confession in public. They’re going to fudge it at best and outright lie, at worst, committing even another sin in the process.

Give me the priest, under the seal of confession, any day.

 

[guanophore]

We believe we are commanded to take part in certain things. Call it whatever you want; I prefer the word “command”.

Do Evangelicals ever consider the Eastern concept of “Holy Mysteries”?

Baptism - We must be Baptized. We believe it’s** a public proclamation of Christ’s death and resurrection**. We believe that our life changes when we accept Christ and repent, and the proclamation of t
dronald;12427094:

his is done through Baptism.

I have always been curious about this idea, especially since it was not found in the Early Church, and the early church practices were so opposite. It was not long after Pentecost when Christianity became the hostile target of both Jews and Pagans, so that baptisms had to be accomplished secretly and privately. It is also puzzling that so much scripture must be ignored to hold this view.

Eucharist - The word comes from Jesus “Giving thanks”. Likewise we give thanks and remember Christ’s blood and body poured out for us. And proclaim such until He returns.

Do evangelicals incorporate the anamnesis of the event?

Marriage - We believe that when two publically proclaim their love and devotion to each other with at least one witness they are then married. Usually we have such led by a minister.

Yes, but is this a tradition of men, devoid of God’s participation?

Confirmation - I don’t really see how this would work? We confirm our Faith at Baptism. Kind of like the thousands that were Baptized in one day by the Apostles.

Yes, in such cases it is redundant, which is why adult converts are baptized and confirmed together. Since the early Church considered baptism to replace circumcision as the entrance rite into the New Covenant, confirmation, like the bar mitzvah, was the opportunity for a child brought into the faith to take adult responsibility for themselves.

Confession - It’s huge in Evangelical Church’s, more than Catholics like to believe. We do confess our sins to one another, but we believe God forgives the heart.

Actually I wish more American Catholics had this spirit of repentance and conversion. Catholics may have a sacrament passed down from the Apostles, but the lines are awfully short!

Anointing orders - Usually the Pastors lay their hands on others and pray before the Church.

Do you mean to install them to leadership, or to pray for healing?

Thanks for your help dr, and for that of other non-Catholics here.

 

[ltwin]

In what way?

A better question would be in what way is prayer not effective. As Jack Hayford writes,

Supplication moves into the confusion of the fallen order of things (e.g., a broken heart, a broken home, someone’s broken health) and begins through supplication to bind up broken things, drawing the strands of such binding back to what ought to be according to God’s intent and God’s will.

In short, the praying Church has been empowered by Christ’s promise to pray in ways that stop what hell’s councils are trying to advance.

With specific reference to intercession, Hayford writes,

Therein lies the idea of intercession. What seems random— catching us unexpectedly in time and circumstance and commanding our attention— is not accidental but providential.

Dear one, almost every day of our lives, you and I step into apparently random situations. If we perceive they are ordained of the Spirit, we will learn to respond to them , knowing God has brought us to them. There will be occasions when we will have a seemingly random thought, or a “signaling,” which might seem accidental ; but wisdom will teach us to seize these moments as intended by God to cause us to intercede for someone or some situation.

Living the Spirit-Formed Life: Growing in the 10 Principles of Spirit-Filled Discipleship (pp. 246, 251-252).

The last statement is important. We are not acting on our own but through the ministry of prayer are being caught up in the work of the Trinity, in which both Christ and the Holy Spirit intercede for us.

Well let me rephrase that for you. When someone asks you to pray for them why don’t you ask them to just pray to God themselves? Why do they need you to pray for them? Will it do any good? And if so, what good will it do?

Because God works through our prayers. The Holy Spirit intercedes through us. As we pray the perfect will of the Father, “all things work together for good” as Romans 8 states.

2 Corinthians 10:3-4 states, “For though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds.” Prayer is one of the most powerful weapons the Christian has.

Do you believe that we will participate in the divinity of God when we reach heaven? Why do you believe that the saints in heaven cannot hear your prayers? Even your Grandma? I ask my mother and my brother to pray for me all the time, just as if they were standing next to me.

It’s not that I don’t think they can. It’s that I cannot communicate with them on this plane of existence.

He said more than that. He said “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.” A very dangerous prayer to pray. This doesn’t say “only confess your sins to the Father”. It places a qualification on our own forgiveness. We must forgive if we are to be forgiven. The Church has never taught anything different.

The purpose of this story is to demonstrate that God’s mercy extends to everyone, even the despised tax collector, who in this case, was repentant. It has nothing to do with whether or not we should confess our sins.

None of that changes the fact that these are examples, given by Jesus, of confession of sin directly to the Father in prayer and in one case we have Jesus explicitly saying that justification results from this sincere confession.

Yes, this would be a very Catholic thing to say. Absolution is not pronounced until the confession is made. You seemed to be saying that absolution has already been pronounced.

It has been on the condition that we confess our sins. If we confess, we have assurance that we will be forgiven.

"He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. “If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

(John 20:22-23)

Now, if Jesus meant us to confess our sins directly to God then why did he give his Church this authority? Keep in mind that this was only the second time that God ever breathed upon man. It was an important event, to say the least.

Well, if we interpreted this verse to mean what you say it means, he gave the disciples authority to forgive sin, which doesn’t necessarily equate to giving Catholic priests today authority to forgive sins.

 

[guanophore]

Yes, both you and Jon asked for an understanding of what confession is in the Evangelical circles and I explained and had said beliefs scrutinized and told which is better.

That’s fine. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. It means more to a Catholic to do it “exactly our way” than it means for you to convert to our way.

You use a Priest, we use a group. I can see the Catholic understanding as Biblical and useful. But I do enjoy the holier than thou attitude I receive from Catholics here; I don’t know why… It’s rather sad.

I’m used to Catholics telling me their way is better. Meh.

Yes, many of us suffer from that “holier than thou attitude”. I suppose if we didn’t all believe we were doing it the right way, that wouldn’t happen.

It also seems a bit disingenuous for us to ask you what you think/practice, then jump all over you when you answer the question!

 

[andrewstx]

I truly hope it is the exemption not the rule…It was not until I became more deeply involved in the inner workings of my evangelical church that I started to see the true priorities coming out.

I have attended more that several though in my area that have these endemic problems.

Where your treasure is there your heart is also.

When the church spent 50 times on Tv Screens, church modernization, stage props, pastor’s salaries, AV equipment, etc… compared to the amount used to feed the poor, visit the imprisoned, etc… that is a problem for me.

When a church with a $15 million dollar a year budget can’t “afford to do communion” but quarterly, that is a problem.

ANyway, I truly hope my experience is the exemption…it seems here in southern california it is much more the norm in large non denim churches.

Evangelicals seem to concentrate on getting people “saved” to the exclusion of much else. IOWs they are interested in souls but much less in the existence of individuals needs while corporate here on earth.

So getting people “saved” does not cost much and leaves the church funds available for things like big screen TVs, expensive sound and lighting systems and bands. The “Lord’s Supper” is not nearly so important as preaching to ‘save’ peoples souls for the afterlife. There is a large “first” church that built a new building even though the one they already had was just as large. Problem was it looked like a church with stained glass and a big pipe organ. Such things are out of style with Evangelicals right now. So they spent many millions on an “unchurchy” church that resembles a theater or auditorium, right down to the stadium seating with cup holders.

 

[andrewstx]

In front of everyone. At Baptism.

Most individuals are baptized only once. (Even though my Baptist Mother was baptized thee times).

Does that mean that Evangelicals confess only once?

 

[Jon_S_1]

The last statement is important. We are not acting on our own but through the ministry of prayer are being caught up in the work of the Trinity, in which both Christ and the Holy Spirit intercede for us.

Because God works through our prayers. The Holy Spirit intercedes through us. As we pray the perfect will of the Father, “all things work together for good” as Romans 8 states.

If you believe this truly, why can’t the trinity utilize the people in heaven as they do your friend on earth? Is God incapable if doing that?

It’s not that I don’t think they can. It’s that I cannot communicate with them on this plane of existence.

Why do you think so? The same could be said of God, but by faith you believe he can hear you despite not seeing him. Why can’t the same be said of this who are with God fully in heaven? Couldn’t God allow this?

Well, if we interpreted this verse to mean what you say it means, he gave the disciples authority to forgive sin, which doesn’t necessarily equate to giving Catholic priests today authority to forgive sins.

how do you interpret it? Didn’t the apostles pass authority to Matthias? To Timothy? To polycarp? When did the passing stop?

 

[SteveVH]

A better question would be in what way is prayer not effective.

Possibly, but that wasn’t my question. What I would like to know is why you pray for another rather than telling them to pray to God themselves? Let’s say that someone needs a job and asks you to pray for this specific purpose. Do you think your prayers will help him get that job?

As Jack Hayford writes,

Supplication moves into the confusion of the fallen order of things (e.g., a broken heart, a broken home, someone’s broken health) and begins through supplication to bind up broken things, drawing the strands of such binding back to what ought to be according to God’s intent and God’s will.

In short, the praying Church has been empowered by Christ’s promise to pray in ways that stop what hell’s councils are trying to advance.

With specific reference to intercession, Hayford writes,

Therein lies the idea of intercession. What seems random— catching us unexpectedly in time and circumstance and commanding our attention— is not accidental but providential.

Dear one, almost every day of our lives, you and I step into apparently random situations. If we perceive they are ordained of the Spirit, we will learn to respond to them , knowing God has brought us to them. There will be occasions when we will have a seemingly random thought, or a “signaling,” which might seem accidental ; but wisdom will teach us to seize these moments as intended by God to cause us to intercede for someone or some situation.

Living the Spirit-Formed Life: Growing in the 10 Principles of Spirit-Filled Discipleship (pp. 246, 251-252).

The last statement is important. We are not acting on our own but through the ministry of prayer are being caught up in the work of the Trinity, in which both Christ and the Holy Spirit intercede for us.

And are not the saints in heaven caught up in the work of the Trinity as well? And if they are caught up in the work of the Trinity then why do you believe they would be limited in their ability to hear our prayers? I’ve never understood why this is so difficult for some. They are alive in Christ, they are co-heirs with him to all that the Father has. Do you suppose they are in heaven with the same faculties that we have on earth?

Because God works through our prayers. The Holy Spirit intercedes through us. As we pray the perfect will of the Father, “all things work together for good” as Romans 8 states.

In heaven as on earth.

It’s not that I don’t think they can. It’s that I cannot communicate with them on this plane of existence.

The same Church which you trust to give you the written word of God says that you can. And we know that we can through various miracles, which are required in order to be canonized a saint in the first place. They are saints because we know they are in heaven. They have proven it. All who are in heaven, known and unknown, can hear our prayers and intercede for us.

Well, if we interpreted this verse to mean what you say it means, he gave the disciples authority to forgive sin, which doesn’t necessarily equate to giving Catholic priests today authority to forgive sins.

Why? The successors to the Apostles, Catholic bishops, who have the power to bind and loose and the power to forgive sins have ordained them with this authority. It is the mercy of God in action and the Church wishes this mercy to be available to the whole world through her priests. They have the authority to administer all of the sacraments except Confirmation, which is reserved to the bishop, unless there are special circumstances.

But please tell me, how many ways can that verse be interpreted? Do you think that Jesus somehow really didn’t give the Church the authority to forgive sins?

 

[guanophore]

I am of the Christ is the sole mediator camp. Intercessory prayer is when you pray on behalf of yourself or another person. Asking for intercessory prayer is not the same as asking for a person to mediate between you and God. Christ already fulfills that. It is prayer that you pray for others who are going through spiritual battles. As we pray for others, we join them in spiritual warfare.

Sometimes you are so amazingly Catholic, Itwin!

I ask people in my church to pray for me. That is not the same thing as praying to a person who is deceased and presumably in Heaven to ask them to pray to God on my behalf.

Why not? It is for those of Apostolic faiths.

No. I just don’t need a Catholic priest to absolve me of my sins in the persona of Christ. I can go to God directly in prayer and confess my sin. The absolution has already been declared and is recorded in God’s unchanging Word.

I think this is a common misperception about Confession. For some reason, those who have rejected this Apostolic Sacrament seem to perceive the priest as an impediment, barrier, or “extra” person “between” ourselves and God, rather than the person being the presence of Christ to us. Rather, it is Christ we approach, Christ who absolves, and Christ who heals.

We are in agreement, though that the absolution we receive was purchased by Christ on the cross.

Evangelicalism

How do you define this?

All of these mainline churches have their own takes on the sacraments.

Perhaps we shall hear from others?

 

[guanophore]

If absolution has already been declared then what is the point of confessing? Just good manners?

It seems like it would be the same as with all the other “ordinances”. They are things we do because God commands them to be done. We follow His commandments because we love Him. Is that a form of godliness without the power thereof?

Doesn’t that bother you?

It is true that we have become incredibly desensitized to the scandal of separation.

11 Holy Father…that they may be one, even as we are one. 20 “I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me. John 17:11–24

Is it any wonder that our witness is compromised?

 

[dronald]

Evangelicals seem to concentrate on getting people “saved” to the exclusion of much else. IOWs they are interested in souls but much less in the existence of individuals needs while corporate here on earth.

So getting people “saved” does not cost much and leaves the church funds available for things like big screen TVs, expensive sound and lighting systems and bands. The “Lord’s Supper” is not nearly so important as preaching to ‘save’ peoples souls for the afterlife. There is a large “first” church that built a new building even though the one they already had was just as large. Problem was it looked like a church with stained glass and a big pipe organ. Such things are out of style with Evangelicals right now. So they spent many millions on an “unchurchy” church that resembles a theater or auditorium, right down to the stadium seating with cup holders.

The Vatican is very pretty. Can we stop using this as an argument?

 

[Jon_S_1]

The Vatican is very pretty. Can we stop using this as an argument?

There is a fundamental difference.

The non denom in my town brings in $100,000 a week. And another church (non denom) just opened and is undergoing a 6 million dollar capital campaign to renovate the office building they have.

Meanwhile the 1 Catholic Church operates on $24,000 a week. It offers mass 7 days a week at least twice a day, confession twice a week, over 70 active ministries, and is a very nice church.

You see we are united with a global church that shares each other’s burdens, that can be the worlds largest charity by pooling our resources, that can create beautiful cathedrals for the people but not at the expense of charity and ministries.

With Protestantism, it is that individual mentality. They all have to stand alone, they have to recreate the wheel over and over, and they invest in “staying current” more than anything. By not being United to the church, they need 4 times the money we do for the same size parish. (And we have twice as many ministries, 10 times more services, and 1/10 the pastors)

 

[dronald]

There is a fundamental difference.

The non denom in my town brings in $100,000 a week. And another church (non denom) just opened and is undergoing a 6 million dollar capital campaign to renovate the office building they have.

Meanwhile the 1 Catholic Church operates on $24,000 a week. It offers mass 7 days a week at least twice a day, confession twice a week, over 70 active ministries, and is a very nice church.

You see we are united with a global church that shares each other’s burdens, that can be the worlds largest charity by pooling our resources, that can create beautiful cathedrals for the people but not at the expense of charity and ministries.

With Protestantism, it is that individual mentality. They all have to stand alone, they have to recreate the wheel over and over, and they invest in “staying current” more than anything. By not being United to the church, they need 4 times the money we do for the same size parish. (And we have twice as many ministries, 10 times more services, and 1/10 the pastors)

It’s all the same. You’re comparing something you notice in the place you are. The CC is great, but it’s no different. The entire reformation started because of how bad people were spending money. The Vatican is worth far more than any non-denom Church I’ve heard of. But I don’t condemn your Church for owning an entire country; it is what it is.

Do I wish we could all stop being so fancy to do better? Well yeah. Do I believe what you’re trying to sell me that the CC is always wise with their money and Evangelicals are the worst? No, I don’t.