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Koineman
Guest
That’s one of the major objections, to my knowledge. There are others, though.
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Per_Crucem
Guest
It just seems a very bizarre position to take; since our salvation is very much dependent on a physical material Jesus, who was physically materially crucified outside of a physical city 2000 years ago, whose material blood carries with it the defeat of Hell, sin and Satan, who was raised from the dead physically. Matter matters!
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Koineman
Guest
I agree. Like I said earlier, it reflects a strong Gnostic influence.
It’s also inconsistent with other beliefs they have. They really do NOT have a problem with the idea of God working through material things, since they believe that God works through the Bible and through preachers.
Not to get too much into bashing evangelicals, but it’s like their denial of extrabiblical tradition. They claim to deny it but hold to a number of extrabiblical traditions that cannot be proven in the Bible at all.
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dronald
Guest
I can’t really say that ‘influence’ is the proper word. I don’t think any denial is because they’ve been influenced by the Gnostics. Perhaps ‘similarities’ but I would argue even that.
I wouldn’t say this is really the reason.
The Eucharist is found in Scripture though, but I don’t really see how we can describe how God works.
We simply give thanks and break communion in remembrance of our Lord. If Jesus Himself is present, then He is… Why do we have to define in what way He’s truly there? God is with us during communion regardless is He not?
I guess I just don’t understand the point.
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aidanbradypop
Guest
I cannot speak for every Evangelical. A faith gives salvation.
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aidanbradypop
Guest
As a Lutheran, do you believe the Sacraments save you?
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SteveVH
Guest
Jesus is present when two or more are gathered together as well, so why do we need the Eucharist to begin with if that is sufficient? Obviously, Jesus is present in the Eucharist in a unique way (body, blood, soul and divinity) or it would have no purpose.
So Jesus is not present in Protestant communion services in the same manner as in Catholic/EO Masses and Divine Liturgies. What you have is truly symbolic; bread and grape juice, and nothing more. This is not to say that there isn’t a *spiritual *communion of sorts, but it isn’t the same as receiving the Eucharist, not even close.
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Jon_S_1
Guest
It seems the real issue, and from my experience as an evangelical, it’s more of a divorce between the physical and spiritual.
Faith, salvation, christianity was primarily stressed as spiritual, and skepticism at best was placed on any sort of physical act or God working through is in a physical way.
as our orthodox friend pointed out, it’s a weird conclusion from a very physical act of the crucifixion.
It also seems to remove God from being able to do these things, or at least stating he does not want to do this (work through people)
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aidanbradypop
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aidanbradypop
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You must have had a really odd experience. Not saying that to ne mean. Divine healing, baptism of the Holy Spirit, prayers being answered and people coming to Christ by way of missions are wonderful examples of God working through people.
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Per_Crucem
Guest
I hate to be black and white with it, honestly, but either the sacraments effect salvation or Scripture teaches falsehood and we cannot trust what it says to us about the path to eternal life.
Not only Scripture, but the tradition of the Church as well; what has been handed down to the inheritors of the apostolic deposit is complete nonsense and we should eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die.
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aidanbradypop
Guest
You enjoy being black and white. Lol
I do not believe Ordinances/Sacraments save me Matthew. I believe that placing my faith in Jesus Christ and trusting Him is what saves me.
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SteveVH
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But their disagreement would be for different reasons having to do with validity of ordination rather than denial of the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Even then, I guess it would depend upon the particular Lutherans and Episcopalians to which one is speaking. See, I am learning something.
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aidanbradypop
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Lol.But their disagreement would be for different reasons having to do with validity of ordination rather than denial of the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Even then, I guess it would depend upon the particular Lutherans and Episcopalians to which one is speaking. See, I am learning something.
I believe Jesus is present spiritually. I do not claim he is present as far as the Catholic view.
So in your view, does a Lutheran eat the real flesh and drink the real blood, or is their Eucharist spiritual also?
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Koineman
Guest
Okay, let’s say Gnostic tendencies. However you want to describe it, the rejection of sacraments on the basis that God does not work through matter is a Gnostic tendency, since it implies that matter is somehow bad enough that God would not work through it.
A reason for what? I don’t get you. At any rate, my statement is based on years and years in evangelicalism and talking with various evangelicals. There is enormous inconsistency in their views, such as in the example I gave above about God working through the Bible and preachers. They vehemently reject what they themselves hold to. It’s almost as if they don’t understand what they’re rejecting or they don’t see their own acceptance of the very things they reject.
It’s about being faithful to Scripture. The Real Presence is in accordance with what Jesus Himself taught.
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Koineman
Guest
Regarding baptism, we echo Scripture: “Baptism now saves you” (1 Peter 3:21).
Regarding the Lord’s Supper, essentially the same thing: forgiveness of sins is received through the Lord’s Supper.
In both cases, it’s through faith alone.
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Koineman
Guest
BINGO!
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Per_Crucem
Guest
Must be my Protestant past lol
Then take it up with St. Peter, who wrote that Baptism now saves you…or St. Paul, who calls Baptism the circumcision made without hands that unites us to Christ, or that which causes us to be raised unto new life.
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SteveVH
Guest
From the Catholic position it would be a spiritual communion only as we do not believe that they have been validly ordained and therefore have no power to confect the Eucharist. They do, however, believe they are receiving the body and blood of the Lord.
This is in contrast to those Protestants that deny the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist right out of the shoot.
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Kliska
Guest
Could you explain what you mean by the above?
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