Do feeding tubes inflict pain and suffering?

[dalesmom]

I haven’t approached my MIL about consulting a nutritionist, but I plan to plant a seed or two about it. It has been suggested to her to try to get her husband to drink something like Ensure or Boost but we were told that it may be difficult since my FIL aspirates any liquid that he tries to drink. They would have to thicken it up and probably spoon it to him, but that is certainly an option.

Do you understand what it means when someone aspirates? If not, everytime your father in law drinks, he runs the risk of that fluid going down to his lungs and causing aspiration pneumonia. Most of us can cough up any liquid that “goes down the wrong way” to clear it out of their lungs, but a high number of elderly cannot. This leads to a breathing tube, strong antibiotics that can cause the kidneys to fail… Not a good scenario.I also don’t think you quite understand the stages of Alzheimer’s. To put your FIL in a nursing home right now would be very bad for him. These patients need as much routine in their life as possible. To change his enviroment right now would only confuse him further and take him away from his routine. Alzheimer’s patients can’t cope with change very well and can become quite violent when forced to do so.
I think you may benefit from some research into Alzheimer’s and you may understand where your MIL and DH are coming from as far as your FIL"s care goes. And it might give you peace. There is alot more going on than your FIL’s nutritional status.

Prayers for understanding and peace for you and yours!

 

[DVIN_CKS]

Do you understand what it means when someone aspirates? …I also don’t think you quite understand the stages of Alzheimer’s. To put your FIL in a nursing home right now would be very bad for him. …I think you may benefit from some research into Alzheimer’s and you may understand where your MIL and DH are coming from as far as your FIL"s care goes. And it might give you peace. There is alot more going on than your FIL’s nutritional status.

Yes, I know exactly what it means when a person aspirates and the risk to the lungs. This in part is what landed him in the hospital and started this whole thing. He was treated with antibiotics (with no damage to his kidneys) and released after four days in the hospital.

I’m very well aware of the dimentia that people with Alzheimer’s suffer. I know how they do best with routine and familiar people caring for them. However, if it came down to changing his surroundings or letting the man starve to death, I would opt to change his surroundings. That’s just me.

I’m also well aware that there is more here than just my FIL’s “nutritional status”. I think my posts have made that clear. There is also a ton of stuff that I haven’t shared so don’t be so quick to assume you’ve been given the whole picture in this matter.

I’m at peace knowing that the Lord uses our sufferings to bring about a greater good and that my MIL is doing what she feels is the best that she can do right now. She is at peace with her decision regarding her husband’s care and that is really all that matters.

Thanks for your prayers.

 

[CradleCath]

You have repeatedly mentioned that in some countries people are forced against their will to undergo medical procedures. (You have also been reminded that that is not Catholic teaching and ignored that as well.)

I find it hard to believe that a person would be **forced **to undergo medical procedures anywhere. Please provide a citation to a news story or legal documentation to back up your assertions. Specifically which countries are you referring to. You have made a rather bold claim. Please back it up with evidence.

ABSOLUTELY. Since Eilish Maura introduced the “fact” that a Catholic hospital forced treatment on someone who didn’t want it, it is her responsibility to give us the name of the country where this supposedly happened & the name of the hospital.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

ABSOLUTELY. Since Eilish Maura introduced the “fact” that a Catholic hospital forced treatment on someone who didn’t want it, it is her responsibility to give us the name of the country where this supposedly happened & the name of the hospital.

The two countries were Portugal and Italy.

The Italian story comes from several news article - the Portugal one from a friend (daughter of the woman ‘treated’).

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Couldn’t an IV then be considered “invasive”? I realize it doesn’t require surgery but some folks could just as easily forbid it and then they would not be able to be hydrated properly.

A person always has the right to refuse anything: medicines, needles (whether for IVs or other things), exercises, therapy, etc.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

You have repeatedly mentioned that in some countries people are forced against their will to undergo medical procedures. (You have also been reminded that that is not Catholic teaching and ignored that as well.)

I find it hard to believe that a person would be **forced **to undergo medical procedures anywhere. Please provide a citation to a news story or legal documentation to back up your assertions. Specifically which countries are you referring to. You have made a rather bold claim. Please back it up with evidence.

I have NOT ‘ignored’ that forcing someone to undergo medical procedures is not Church teaching – but a hospital in Italy gave being a Catholic hospital as the reason for doing just that in a news article maybe two years ago. I did not maintain any kind of record of this article - I do not collect these things.

My friend’s mother was dying in Portugal, was in a Catholic hospital when they discovered something else wrong that could be surgically treated. The mother said she did not want treatment as she was dying, the daughter fought to keep the surgery from happening. The daughter said the hospital insisted they were compelled by law do the surgery even though the woman was dying. She suffered horribly because they had to change her ‘treatment’ to make her ‘ready’ for surgery and because she was dying she had a horrible ‘recovery’ before finally dying.

 

[rpp]

I have NOT ‘ignored’ that forcing someone to undergo medical procedures is not Church teaching – but a hospital in Italy gave being a Catholic hospital as the reason for doing just that in a news article maybe two years ago. I did not maintain any kind of record of this article - I do not collect these things. My friend’s mother was dying in Portugal, was in a Catholic hospital when they discovered something else wrong that could be surgically treated. The mother said she did not want treatment as she was dying, the daughter fought to keep the surgery from happening. The daughter said the hospital insisted they were compelled by law do the surgery even though the woman was dying. She suffered horribly because they had to change her ‘treatment’ to make her ‘ready’ for surgery and because she was dying she had a horrible ‘recovery’ before finally dying.

In doing a little checking into Italian Law, I could find no provision to force an person to undergo any type of medical treatment. If you want to continue to assert that this is the law of the country, I repeat my request, please provide a link to a news article. Otherwise, I am afraid you , at least to me, you are not a credible source. Since what you describe is a violation of Italian law, I can only assume that you did not properly understand what you the article really meant. At least, that would be the charitable conclusion. An Italian language news story would be fine for me, by the way.

 

[CradleCath]

I have NOT ‘ignored’ that forcing someone to undergo medical procedures is not Church teaching – but a hospital in Italy gave being a Catholic hospital as the reason for doing just that in a news article maybe two years ago. I did not maintain any kind of record of this article - I do not collect these things.

No need for you to “collect these things”. It’s the age of the internet & all you need to do now is give us the name of the city & the hospital. It will be easy to find the truth with a google search.

My friend’s mother was dying in Portugal, was in a Catholic hospital when they discovered something else wrong that could be surgically treated. The mother said she did not want treatment as she was dying, the daughter fought to keep the surgery from happening. The daughter said the hospital insisted they were compelled by law do the surgery even though the woman was dying.

Once again, the name of the city & the hospital. Since your claims are so outrageous, it would be to your own benefit to supply us with these. Otherwise, I feel that you might have made a fool of yourself & will lose all credibility.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Once again, the name of the city & the hospital. Since your claims are so outrageous, it would be to your own benefit to supply us with these. Otherwise, I feel that you might have made a fool of yourself & will lose all credibility.

I will not go digging around for an article several years old to satisfy your demands.

I do not make a ‘fool’ of myself for sharing information I come across. I was outraged by the article where someone was forced to have treatment because it was seen that to do otherwise amounted to allowing the person to commit suicide and suicide was against the Church.

It was dressed up as ‘doing everything possible to preserve life’ even if against the will of the individual and was not actually going to ‘preserve life’ - and the patient was NOT found incompetent to make these decisions. It was a similar situation to the one my friend’s mother was in.

We would be expected to assume the person made an accurate claim if it was something ‘traditional’ - including things about private revelation or accounts of undocumented comments by a pope etc. – I do not see why some things (or some people?) are held to a different standard so I think the ‘criticisms’ about my referencing this article are meaningless.

 

[rpp]

I will not go digging around for an article several years old to satisfy your demands.

I do not make a ‘fool’ of myself for sharing information I come across. I was outraged by the article where someone was forced to have treatment because it was seen that to do otherwise amounted to allowing the person to commit suicide and suicide was against the Church.

It was dressed up as ‘doing everything possible to preserve life’ even if against the will of the individual and was not actually going to ‘preserve life’ - and the patient was NOT found incompetent to make these decisions. It was a similar situation to the one my friend’s mother was in.

We would be expected to assume the person made an accurate claim if it was something ‘traditional’ - including things about private revelation or accounts of undocumented comments by a pope etc. – I do not see why some things (or some people?) are held to a different standard so I think the ‘criticisms’ about my referencing this article are meaningless.

You make a claim yet you refuse to provide details. That happens frequently on this forum. Despite your claims to the contrary, lots of people get called on it.

You refuse to provide ANY documentation to back up your assertions.

As for treating you unfairly, that is a canard. Many people make similarly ridiculous assertions here on this forum and are called on to provide documentation. For a person to take the word of an anonymous internet poster is a good example of foolishness.

If you want to make a claim, back it up, just like everyone else does. To claim you are somehow being singled out in this regard is not supportable. Just look at other threads on this forum.

I, for one, do not believe the assertions you made. I have two reasons for this. First, neither in Portugal nor Italy can a patient be forced to undergo a medical procedure unless they are first declared mentally incompetent. That is the law. Just the like the USA and all other EU countries.

Secondly, these assertions very conveniently support your position in opposition to Church teaching.

You have lost credibility here because of your unfounded assertions that actually violate the laws of the countries you identified.

While I did not use the phrase “make a fool of yourself”, I can easily see why other may be motivated to say it. I can see also why they would have a valid basis for making such a statement, even if it is a bit uncharitable. I myself would not use such a phrase.

But I will say that you have lost all credibility.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

You make a claim yet you refuse to provide details. That happens frequently on this forum. Despite your claims to the contrary, lots of people get called on it.

You refuse to provide ANY documentation to back up your assertions.

As for treating you unfairly, that is a canard. Many people make similarly ridiculous assertions here on this forum and are called on to provide documentation. For a person to take the word of an anonymous internet poster is a good example of foolishness.

If you want to make a claim, back it up, just like everyone else does. To claim you are somehow being singled out in this regard is not supportable. Just look at other threads on this forum.

I, for one, do not believe the assertions you made. I have two reasons for this. First, neither in Portugal nor Italy can a patient be forced to undergo a medical procedure unless they are first declared mentally incompetent. That is the law. Just the like the USA and all other EU countries.

Secondly, these assertions very conveniently support your position in opposition to Church teaching.

You have lost credibility here because of your unfounded assertions that actually violate the laws of the countries you identified.

While I did not use the phrase “make a fool of yourself”, I can easily see why other may be motivated to say it. I can see also why they would have a valid basis for making such a statement, even if it is a bit uncharitable. I myself would not use such a phrase.

But I will say that you have lost all credibility.

Well I wish I was lying.

My friend was devastated and her relationship with the faith has suffered because the Church was used as the reason the things done to her mother. I have no personal connection to the story of what happened in Italy.

Coming back to topic specific to this thread - just think about it more the next time it comes up about providing nutrition/hydration using tubes – are you going to be willing to force procedures on another because the Church says it is ‘ordinary care’?

 

[rpp]

Well I wish I was lying.

My friend was devastated and her relationship with the faith has suffered because the Church was used as the reason the things done to her mother. I have no personal connection to the story of what happened in Italy.

So you say. But then, no one will ever know.

 

[rpp]

Coming back to topic specific to this thread - just think about it more the next time it comes up about providing nutrition/hydration using tubes – are you going to be willing to force procedures on another because the Church says it is ‘ordinary care’?

This actually is not the topic of the thread. The topic is about whether feeding tubes inflict pain. That has been clearly answered already. It has even been answered by people who have actually had the experience of having a feeding tube inserted.

Furthermore, the question posed here is a false choice. As it is illegal in the USA, Canada, Mexico, all EU countries and virtually every other country to force people to undergo medical procedures against their will, such a situation will never arise. Therefore, such a question is both moot and pejorative.