Do Hebrew Catholics observe circumcision and Sabbath in disobedience to the Council of Florence?

[ROBAUTEN]

I am excited about the liturature and concepts put forward by the Association of Hebrew Catholics but I do not understand how they can truly celebrate their Jewish background and conform to the decrees of the Council of Florence which forbid observance of circumcision, Sabbath and the other Mosaic Laws. I just want to understand. Another question: can the Mass be said in Hebrew?

 

[bengal_fan]

I am excited about the liturature and concepts put forward by the Association of Hebrew Catholics but I do not understand how they can truly celebrate their Jewish background and conform to the decrees of the Council of Florence which forbid observance of circumcision, Sabbath and the other Mosaic Laws. I just want to understand. Another question: can the Mass be said in Hebrew?

considering many, many catholics observe circumcision (maybe not in a ceremony, but certainly at the hospital), i don’t think it is really a problem.

i am not familiar with the council of florence and it’s decrees. if it forbid observance of jewish laws, wouldn’t that go against what Jesus said, “not one letter of the law shall pass away”? i am not seventh day adventist or anything (meaning i don’t think that all the laws of the OT are binding for us today), i just think that forbidding some one to observe the laws goes against Jesus’ words.

 

[Yerusalyim]

I’m unaware as to whether or not a Hebrew liturgy has been approved. If it has there would be no impediment. As to the practice of Mosaic law being banned for Christians, I need to do more research but I would think this is just not so. I find nothing in the CCC that would make it wrong.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

In Acts 15 Gentiles are relieved of circumcision and Sabbath, but nothing prohibits it for them either. Those who say they are Jews, Catholic or not, should be observing Torah though.

 

[puzzleannie]

I am excited about the liturature and concepts put forward by the Association of Hebrew Catholics but I do not understand how they can truly celebrate their Jewish background and conform to the decrees of the Council of Florence which forbid observance of circumcision, Sabbath and the other Mosaic Laws. I just want to understand. Another question: can the Mass be said in Hebrew?

the real intent of the law of the council you cite has been discussed frequently, most recently within the last month, you might find it helpful to correct your misreading of the history behind the issue on those threads. another good search topic would be the oft-questioned Catholic teaching on circumcision.

 

[Thespian]

I thought non-medical circumcision was banned for Catholics. I just googled it, and as well as the Papal Bull against it, there are a few other pronouncements against it, including one from Pope Pius XII in 1952.

This is the part of the Catechism which seems relevant:

“Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reasons, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against the moral law.”

I suppose it’s a matter of argument whether or not it’s an amputation, but as a non-circumcised male myself, it certainly seems that way to me.

 

[ROBAUTEN]

PUZZLEANNIE Where has this been discussed recently? I would love to read the thred. And I am not sure what you mean by “my misreading of the history” since I didn’t refer to any historical context of the Council of Florence.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

This wouldn’t just be an issue for the Hebrews, but also the Maronites, Melkites, and the Syrians, Copts and Ethiopians who submittted to Rome.

 

[De_Maria]

I am excited about the liturature and concepts put forward by the Association of Hebrew Catholics but I do not understand how they can truly celebrate their Jewish background and conform to the decrees of the Council of Florence which forbid observance of circumcision, Sabbath and the other Mosaic Laws. I just want to understand. Another question: can the Mass be said in Hebrew?

[Bull of Union with the Copts]
It [The Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes and teaches that the legal prescriptions of the old Testament or the Mosaic law, which are divided into ceremonies, holy sacrifices and sacraments, because they were instituted to signify something in the future, although they were adequate for the divine cult of that age, once our lord Jesus Christ who was signified by them had come, came to an end and the sacraments of the new Testament had their beginning. Whoever, after the passion, places his hope in the legal prescriptions and submits himself to them as necessary for salvation and as if faith in Christ without them could not save, sins mortally. It does not deny that from Christ’s passion until the promulgation of the gospel they could have been retained, provided they were in no way believed to be necessary for salvation. But it asserts that after the promulgation of the gospel they cannot be observed without loss of eternal salvation. Therefore it denounces all who after that time observe circumcision, the sabbath and other legal prescriptions as strangers to the faith of Christ and unable to share in eternal salvation, unless they recoil at some time from these errors. Therefore it strictly orders all who glory in the name of Christian, not to practise circumcision either before or after baptism, since whether or not they place their hope in it, it cannot possibly be observed without loss of eternal salvation.

Note the bolded words:

1. **Therefore it denounces all who after that time observe circumcision, the sabbath and *****other legal prescriptions

***This sounds as though circumcision is forbidden if it is observed as a **legal prescription.

**What is a legal prescription? A legal prescription is an observation of the law. In other words, if the person practicing circumcision is doing it because he believes the law is still in force and he must do so to enter the Abrahamic/Mosaic Covenant which was fulfilled by Jesus Christ, then he is showing a lack of faith in Jesus Christ.

Galatians 3:1 O senseless Galatians, who hath bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? **3 Are you so foolish, that, whereas you began in the Spirit, you would now be made perfect by the flesh?

**2. not to practise circumcision either before or after baptism, since whether or not they place their hope in it, it cannot possibly be observed without loss of eternal salvation.

Lets break that up into its parts:

a. If they place their hope in it.

If the person places their hope in circumcision, then they are showing a lack of faith in Jesus Christ as explained in #1 above.

b. If they do not place their hope in it

If the person observing the circumcision does not place their hope in it, but is still observing it as a legal prescription, then he is doing it in fear of the repercussions from the Mosaic culture:

Matthew 10 33 But he that shall deny me before men, I will also deny him before my Father who is in heaven.

So it would seem that circumcision is permissible as long as it is not practiced in obedience to the Abrahamic/Mosaic legal prescription.

Some say that it might be forbidden by the Catholic forbidding of mutilation and amputation. However, I don’t see that anywhere in official Catholic documents, so I don’t believe it. Everyone cuts their hair and women pierce their ears without being accused of mutilation or amputation. In my opinion, circumcision falls under the same category.

However, I am not circumcised nor did I permit my boys to be circumcised when the hospital requested permission to do so.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[ROBAUTEN]

THANK YOU DE MARIA,
The ref. for the bull is Cantate Domino - Decree for the Jacobites Denzinger # 712. Your explanation made sense to me. You differentiated between 1) observing the law / believing it is inforce and 2) placing hope in it for salvation. Is that your analysis or is this from the CDF or somewhere inbetween?
I have to say when I read the bull the first few times I shuddered because I am circumcised myself and had 2 of my sons circumcised also. Without your distinction it sounds like anyone who is circumcised has to repent of something or he is condemned. I knew that just couldn’t be right. … I suppose this extends to things like Christian Passover seders and Shabott services???

 

[ROBAUTEN]

In Acts 15 Gentiles are relieved of circumcision and Sabbath, but nothing prohibits it for them either. Those who say they are Jews, Catholic or not, should be observing Torah though.

It would seem that “observing” Torah would be prohibited by the Decree to the Jacobites, even to the point where it is still possible without a Jewish priesthood & temple. Hebrew Catholics would only be able to re-enact Torah feasts & observences for merely instructional purposes only, or perhaps to keep alive a sense of their election as sons of Israel according to the flesh - and always keeping in mind that these observances have “ceased” since the New Covenant began.
It seems to be skating a very thin line without a ruling from the CDF. Rob.

 

[De_Maria]

THANK YOU DE MARIA,

You’re welcome.

The ref. for the bull is Cantate Domino - Decree for the Jacobites Denzinger # 712. Your explanation made sense to me. You differentiated between 1) observing the law / believing it is inforce and 2) placing hope in it for salvation. Is that your analysis

Pretty much. I have great faith in the Catholic Church. I believe the Catholic Church has the most reasonable doctrines of any other religion.

When I heard the drastic interpretations of this edict from various sources, that automatically raised warning flags. Normally I rely on scholars to interpret the matter for me. But in the absence of such, in this instance, I thought I’d better give it a shot myself.

I’m pretty sure I’m correct, because although I could find no detail, I did find these threads which tend to confirm my analysis:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=209120

or is this from the CDF

CDF? Do you mean CAF?

or somewhere inbetween?

I guess thats the best explanation.

I have to say when I read the bull the first few times I shuddered because I am circumcised myself and had 2 of my sons circumcised also. Without your distinction it sounds like anyone who is circumcised has to repent of something or he is condemned.

The analyses I was reading were giving me the same scary feeling.

I knew that just couldn’t be right

Exactly! I knew someone was mistaken and it wasn’t the Church.

. … I suppose this extends to things like Christian Passover seders and Shabott services???

I agree. The Pastor of our Church sponsors an annual Passover Seder for educational purposes (i.e. the roots of the Catholic Church). I’m sure he wouldn’t if it wasn’t permitted?

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Yerusalyim]

In Acts 15 Gentiles are relieved of circumcision and Sabbath, but nothing prohibits it for them either. Those who say they are Jews, Catholic or not, should be observing Torah though.

Remember that even Paul remained a faithful observer of the Mosaic Law his entire life.

 

[ROBAUTEN]

You’re welcome.

CDF? Do you mean CAF?

De Maria

I meant: CDF - Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. I see this is quite a touchy subject with many people.

 

[ROBAUTEN]

I’m pretty sure I’m correct, because although I could find no detail, I did find these threads which tend to confirm my analysis:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=209120

I read the answers on this thred: “The Church does not object to circumcision if it is not done for religious reasons.” But it seems that Hebrew Catholics would be circumcising their children for religious reasons: ie to keep alive their Jewish identity which comes from their unique election. So it is like back to square 1: For a Jewish Catholic to observe circumcision and Passover seders and Sabbath week after week and year after year must be from a “religious reason”. So my ? is still unresolved in my mind.

 

[inthecloud]

I’m unaware as to whether or not a Hebrew liturgy has been approved. If it has there would be no impediment.

There is a Ordo Novo in Hebrew in Israel.

 

[paarsurrey]

considering many, many catholics observe circumcision (maybe not in a ceremony, but certainly at the hospital), i don’t think it is really a problem.
i am not familiar with the council of florence and it’s decrees. if it forbid observance of jewish laws, wouldn’t that go against what Jesus said, “not one letter of the law shall pass away”? i am not seventh day adventist or anything (meaning i don’t think that all the laws of the OT are binding for us today), i just think that forbidding some one to observe the laws goes against Jesus’ words.

Hi

I agree with you.

Thanks

 

[Ignatius]

It is important in reading declarations and documents from the past not the commit the error of anachronistic interpretation.
The intent and reason for the documents at the time is a very important component in getting proper and correct understanding. The prohabition may have been to combat some heresy common at the time. If there is no longer any danger of this, it may no longer apply at present time unless the Magisterium indicates so. One would have to talk to the pastoral ordinary in the jurisdictions of those people to see what the determination is.

Yours in Christ.

 

[drafdog]

Any Jewish Christian may have male children circumcised as a ritual related to ethnicity. This takes it out of the realm of a religious rite.
Since Jesus insisted that our righteousness exceed that of the Scribes and Pharisees, it is incumbent on us to know, understand and observe Torah, otherwise how shall we be more righteous?
As an example, look at the Decalogue. This is a list of minimum behavioral norms in order to have a smooth running society. First know and understand the minimum standards and then go beyond them.

Matthew

 

[ROBAUTEN]

Since Jesus insisted that our righteousness exceed that of the Scribes and Pharisees, it is incumbent on us to know, understand and observe Torah, otherwise how shall we be more righteous?
As an example, look at the Decalogue. This is a list of minimum behavioral norms in order to have a smooth running society. First know and understand the minimum standards and then go beyond them.
Matthew

I believe that Jesus’ point was not that we would have to fulfill the letter of the law better than the Scribes and Pharisees (after all they devoted themselves totally to this), or fullfill more laws, especially laws that are no longer binding because they have been superceeded by the laws of the New Covenant, but rather, that we have to fullfill the law and the intent of the law from the heart by the power of the Spirit, which Jesus was accusing the Pharisees of not doing.

If you want to talk about going beyond the minimum requirements of the 10 commandments, the Catholic tradition does not counsel adding the ceremonial or sacrificial laws of the Old Covenant, but rather adopting the evangelical counsels of poverty, chastity and obedience to as great a level of commitment as you can.