Do i need to see a priest before starting small acts of self mortification?

[crossfaith]

Since Friday morning I have been wearing a piece of twine around my waist, enough to restrict and be annoying but not enough to actually hurt me. Every time i feel it i offer a prayer to God in order for the conversion of sinners.

In the past i have tried to practice self denial but im prone to easily give in. Im doing my best to try smaller acts of penance, eg, drinking water instead of tea/coffee and resisting my favourite foods/small deserts. Working longer hours at work/ resisting my favourite past times (watching youtube). But i feel like this is not enough.

Was I supposed to ask a spiritual director beforehand or is this ok? I feel like cutting it off because im so unsure, but i dont want to because i feel like this would be giving in.

Its not like im physically hurting myself, though it does leave a slight red mark because the twine is quite hairy and a little irritating. But its tolerable. Or is it supposed to be intolerable?

Also does it count if your in mortal or venial sin? Or do you need to be in the state of Grace to perform penance?

 

[Monica4316]

According to my understanding… You don’t need permission to not have a piece of chocolate… But if you want to do something like you’ve described, it would be good to ask a spiritual director. Personally, I would… Same with giving up sleep, sleeping on the floor, fasting for a day only on bread, other fasting… Giving up a type of food for a long time…

The reason is not just so not to go overboard and ruin your health. Its also to learn obedience and avoid a temptation to pride at some point. What you are doing isn’t likely to affect your health in any way but its still good to ask. Do you have a spiritual director?

It seems directors differ in views about penance a bit. My SD is a traditional priest. But not all penances are good for each person and its more important to be obedient. Jesus told this to the Saints who did impressive penances but then were forbidden or had to lessen them - He said the obedience is more important.

Some people today would disagree with penance at all, it is a tradition in the Church though. Nothing wrong with it but its only a way to virtue and obedience is in a way worth more because it not only mortifies the flesh but the will (its good to mortify the flesh but its even harder with the will).

Just some thoughts!

As for it being tolerable or intolerable, its fine if its tolerable but slightly irritating. That’s another particular question for a director. It can damage the spiritual life to try too much too soon. The Saint who slept on nails and such - were prepared spiritually. Its about the amount of love, not just the amount of suffering.

I guess the person could do.penance in mortal.sin too.but it wouldn’t be meritorious. It would just be a way to keep up the resolution. That’s my understanding though.

Hope that helps!

 

[robertmidwest]

Since Friday morning I have been wearing a piece of twine around my waist, enough to restrict and be annoying but not enough to actually hurt me. Every time i feel it i offer a prayer to God in order for the conversion of sinners.

In the past i have tried to practice self denial but im prone to easily give in. Im doing my best to try smaller acts of penance, eg, drinking water instead of tea/coffee and resisting my favourite foods/small deserts. Working longer hours at work/ resisting my favourite past times (watching youtube). But i feel like this is not enough.

Was I supposed to ask a spiritual director beforehand or is this ok? I feel like cutting it off because im so unsure, but i dont want to because i feel like this would be giving in.

Its not like im physically hurting myself, though it does leave a slight red mark because the twine is quite hairy and a little irritating. But its tolerable. Or is it supposed to be intolerable?

Also does it count if your in mortal or venial sin? Or do you need to be in the state of Grace to perform penance?

You should do this after seeking the guidance of a director.

 

[ctb95]

Your act of mortification is small, but I’d say it’s still wise to consult a spiritual director.

 

[jcrichton]

Since Friday morning I have been wearing a piece of twine around my waist, enough to restrict and be annoying but not enough to actually hurt me. Every time i feel it i offer a prayer to God in order for the conversion of sinners.

In the past i have tried to practice self denial but im prone to easily give in. Im doing my best to try smaller acts of penance, eg, drinking water instead of tea/coffee and resisting my favourite foods/small deserts. Working longer hours at work/ resisting my favourite past times (watching youtube). But i feel like this is not enough.

Was I supposed to ask a spiritual director beforehand or is this ok? I feel like cutting it off because im so unsure, but i dont want to because i feel like this would be giving in.

Its not like im physically hurting myself, though it does leave a slight red mark because the twine is quite hairy and a little irritating. But its tolerable. Or is it supposed to be intolerable?

Also does it count if your in mortal or venial sin? Or do you need to be in the state of Grace to perform penance?

Hi!

I don’t understand why people are so concern with their “state of Grace.”

It’s not as if the fees for Confessions have more than gone 100,000%–after all zero times anything is still zero–so why are people reluctant to going to Confession?

…when we offer to God anything, it is about our generous and loving heart; God is not concerned with taxing us beyond our capacities… but God is concerned with our purity of heart; so Confess your sins at every opportunity; do not seek to bring bags of dirty laundry for a one time cleaning… consider that we walk with our sins wherever we go… would it be better to go to regular Confession?

…our Obedience to God would make every offer the better and closer to His Heart–remember the example left to us by Abel? The best of the best!

Confessing our sins makes our offering the best of the best!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[David_Nacey]

I’m sorry, but I must disagree with some of those posting here. Perhaps Crossfaith may tend a little toward scrupulousness, so I don’t believe they are saving up for one or two confessions per year. God loves sacrifices! I don’t think anyone needs to worry about consulting anyone before starting a sacrifice. Now, if it affects a spouse or close family member, they might need to be consulted. For instance, I work until 12:00 AM, and don’t get home until 12:45, but I get up at 5:45 every morning to get ready for Daily Mass at 6:30 from Tuesday through Friday. I consulted my wife about it, and she supports me. After 8 months, I am now a lector and psalmist, and the graces I get through Daily Mass far outweigh the effects of my lack of sleep on those days. I have no doubt that God gives us special graces and blessings from our sacrifices. My kids have even started getting up with me and serving the altar on all those days, since there were never any altar boys at that Mass anyway, and we got the padre’s permission.

“Ecce nos reliquimus omnia, et secuti sumus te.” St. Matthew 19:27

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Since Friday morning I have been wearing a piece of twine around my waist, enough to restrict and be annoying but not enough to actually hurt me. Every time i feel it i offer a prayer to God in order for the conversion of sinners.

In the past i have tried to practice self denial but im prone to easily give in. Im doing my best to try smaller acts of penance, eg, drinking water instead of tea/coffee and resisting my favourite foods/small deserts. Working longer hours at work/ resisting my favourite past times (watching youtube). But i feel like this is not enough.

Was I supposed to ask a spiritual director beforehand or is this ok? I feel like cutting it off because im so unsure, but i dont want to because i feel like this would be giving in.

Its not like im physically hurting myself, though it does leave a slight red mark because the twine is quite hairy and a little irritating. But its tolerable. Or is it supposed to be intolerable?

Also does it count if your in mortal or venial sin? Or do you need to be in the state of Grace to perform penance?

CF you clearly have a tendency to scrupulosity and a less than mature understanding of sin and grace.
Regardless of penance I suggest for your Christian life as a whole that you take up a regular confessor or spiritual director for your own good.

 

[friardchips]

Since Friday morning I have been wearing a piece of twine around my waist, enough to restrict and be annoying but not enough to actually hurt me. Every time i feel it i offer a prayer to God in order for the conversion of sinners.

In the past i have tried to practice self denial but im prone to easily give in. Im doing my best to try smaller acts of penance, eg, drinking water instead of tea/coffee and resisting my favourite foods/small deserts. Working longer hours at work/ resisting my favourite past times (watching youtube). But i feel like this is not enough.

Was I supposed to ask a spiritual director beforehand or is this ok? I feel like cutting it off because im so unsure, but i dont want to because i feel like this would be giving in.

Its not like im physically hurting myself, though it does leave a slight red mark because the twine is quite hairy and a little irritating. But its tolerable. Or is it supposed to be intolerable?

Also does it count if your in mortal or venial sin? Or do you need to be in the state of Grace to perform penance?

I’m sorry, but I must disagree with some of those posting here. Perhaps Crossfaith may tend a little toward scrupulousness, so I don’t believe they are saving up for one or two confessions per year. God loves sacrifices! I don’t think anyone needs to worry about consulting anyone before starting a sacrifice. Now, if it affects a spouse or close family member, they might need to be consulted. For instance, I work until 12:00 AM, and don’t get home until 12:45, but I get up at 5:45 every morning to get ready for Daily Mass at 6:30 from Tuesday through Friday. I consulted my wife about it, and she supports me. After 8 months, I am now a lector and psalmist, and the graces I get through Daily Mass far outweigh the effects of my lack of sleep on those days. I have no doubt that God gives us special graces and blessings from our sacrifices. My kids have even started getting up with me and serving the altar on all those days, since there were never any altar boys at that Mass anyway, and we got the padre’s permission.

“Ecce nos reliquimus omnia, et secuti sumus te.” St. Matthew 19:27

I agree. God takes people where they are. Don’t need to wait.

A Spiritual Director is helpful too. And would help.

Of course, God also likes gratitude for His Sacrifice, which is worth pondering upon and putting into action.

Have you said before that you suffer with scruples before on this forum, because if so, then, as far as I am aware, having a regular confessor you can go to, who understands the spiritual requirements of your soul, is apparently a good idea (I have heard this).

 

[jcrichton]

I’m sorry, but I must disagree with some of those posting here. Perhaps Crossfaith may tend a little toward scrupulousness, so I don’t believe they are saving up for one or two confessions per year. God loves sacrifices! I don’t think anyone needs to worry about consulting anyone before starting a sacrifice. Now, if it affects a spouse or close family member, they might need to be consulted. For instance, I work until 12:00 AM, and don’t get home until 12:45, but I get up at 5:45 every morning to get ready for Daily Mass at 6:30 from Tuesday through Friday. I consulted my wife about it, and she supports me. After 8 months, I am now a lector and psalmist, and the graces I get through Daily Mass far outweigh the effects of my lack of sleep on those days. I have no doubt that God gives us special graces and blessings from our sacrifices. My kids have even started getting up with me and serving the altar on all those days, since there were never any altar boys at that Mass anyway, and we got the padre’s permission.

“Ecce nos reliquimus omnia, et secuti sumus te.” St. Matthew 19:27

Hi, David!

Wow!

This goes to Jesus’ asking to let Him carry our yoke and to take on His!

Did you think, when you began your sacrificial offering, that things would turn out like this? You are the exact definition of “Head of Household;” you Bless your Marriage and your family with your leadership as you humbly Serve Yahweh God!

May the Holy Spirit continue to Bless and Guide you!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[ItTakesAllKinds]

Since Friday morning I have been wearing a piece of twine around my waist, enough to restrict and be annoying but not enough to actually hurt me. Every time i feel it i offer a prayer to God in order for the conversion of sinners.

In the past i have tried to practice self denial but im prone to easily give in. Im doing my best to try smaller acts of penance, eg, drinking water instead of tea/coffee and resisting my favourite foods/small deserts. Working longer hours at work/ resisting my favourite past times (watching youtube). But i feel like this is not enough.

Was I supposed to ask a spiritual director beforehand or is this ok? I feel like cutting it off because im so unsure, but i dont want to because i feel like this would be giving in.

Its not like im physically hurting myself, though it does leave a slight red mark because the twine is quite hairy and a little irritating. But its tolerable. Or is it supposed to be intolerable?

Also does it count if your in mortal or venial sin? Or do you need to be in the state of Grace to perform penance?

Never mind with the spiritual director. You honestly need to have a psychological assessment done. I don’t believe you are healthy.

 

[robertmidwest]

Never mind with the spiritual director. You honestly need to have a psychological assessment done. I don’t believe you are healthy.

 

[friardchips]

Never mind with the spiritual director. You honestly need to have a psychological assessment done. I don’t believe you are healthy.

Excuse me?!

That is not for you to determine.

There is too much of this kind of ‘advice’ being given out.

They do require a Spiritual Director. That person would be able to determine if they do require medical help. Until that time, you ought to understand that acts of mortification and discipline are done by those who are needing to express their faith and put into practice these acts because this is where they are in their faith.

I am not saying that they need to put a rope around their waist but I am saying not to tread on another man/woman’s faith. It is not for us to say, either way.

Do you think the saints, then, when they first put a rope around their waists, should have done the same? St. Francis and St. Dominic come to mind.

 

[jcrichton]

Never mind with the spiritual director. You honestly need to have a psychological assessment done. I don’t believe you are healthy.

Hi!

…are you aware that a young woman has been prosecuted for texting to her ex-boy that he should go ahead an terminate his existence?

…words have weight.

…your analysis of this situation is far beyond professional acuity.

…not only that, but you have basically called every Catholic Saint that has used personal sacrifice, in one form or another, unhealthy.

What is your version of self-denial, only drinking 19 cups of coffee per day, instead of 20 or playing only $2,000.00 on the lotto game, instead of $2,001.00?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Dempsey1919]

Never mind with the spiritual director. You honestly need to have a psychological assessment done. I don’t believe you are healthy.

If you can’t say anything charitable, you should keep your mouth shut. Who are you to pass judgment on the mental state of someone you’ve never met? You also display a profound ignorance of the spiritual life and the Catholic tradition. Our Lord commanded us to take up our crosses and practice self-denial.

 

[Monica4316]

Never mind with the spiritual director. You honestly need to have a psychological assessment done. I don’t believe you are healthy.

There’s nothing “unhealthy” in the OP unless you believe mortification is unhealthy - in which case, your view would differ from that of the Church over centuries.

I also don’t believe we are able to make these “assessments” of people online who we’ve never met.

The OP sounds normal and there’s nothing in the post indicating psychological imbalance, again unless you disagree with mortification, but that is not the view of the Church.

To explain, - wanting to suffer something together with Christ, out of love, is very different from what people call “self harm”. Causing oneself pain out of depression or to try and relieve interior pain is what is psychologically unhealthy, (and it doesn’t work anyway). That is not what Catholics do or what the Saints have done. They make small sacrifices or cause some discomfort physically either to lessen the attachments to “the passions” (we were not created for them to control us, we need to control them) - or to suffer out of love in union with Christ, for souls. This discomfort would not be something that would harm the body. It should be done with spiritual direction if possible. Which is what the OP was wondering.

Maybe to our society such things sound strange especially because we keep hearing about “self harm”, but again that’s not what it is. And “self harm” like cutting is probably a newer thing. People went to God more in the past and depression has gone up in the modern era. What Catholics do is not “self harm” so no psychological assessment necessary.

 

[JRS_88]

If you can’t say anything charitable, you should keep your mouth shut. Who are you to pass judgment on the mental state of someone you’ve never met? You also display a profound ignorance of the spiritual life and the Catholic tradition. Our Lord commanded us to take up our crosses and practice self-denial.

I agree. Well said.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Since Friday morning I have been wearing a piece of twine around my waist, enough to restrict and be annoying but not enough to actually hurt me. Every time i feel it i offer a prayer to God in order for the conversion of sinners.

In the past i have tried to practice self denial but im prone to easily give in. Im doing my best to try smaller acts of penance, eg, drinking water instead of tea/coffee and resisting my favourite foods/small deserts. Working longer hours at work/ resisting my favourite past times (watching youtube). But i feel like this is not enough.

Was I supposed to ask a spiritual director beforehand or is this ok? I feel like cutting it off because im so unsure, but i dont want to because i feel like this would be giving in.

Its not like im physically hurting myself, though it does leave a slight red mark because the twine is quite hairy and a little irritating. But its tolerable. Or is it supposed to be intolerable?

Also does it count if your in mortal or venial sin? Or do you need to be in the state of Grace to perform penance?

A basic rule of thumb is: when one is undertaking physical mortification or using any sort of instrument of penance, one should consult a spiritual director or, at minimum, one’s regular confessor. It also allows one well versed in the spiritual life, by education and by education’s being lived out in daily practice, to correct any imbalance or misdirected zeal in the person being directed as well as to help the person receiving direction to grow overall in the spiritual life and particularly regarding practices of asceticism.

The overall spirit of the norms established by Saint Benedict in his Rule for Monastics can apply by extension to laity according to their circumstances and exemplify the above maxim.

Although the life of a monk ought at all times have the aspect of Lenten observance, yet, since few have strength enough for this, we exhort all during these days of Lent to lead lives of the greatest purity, and to atone during this holy season for all the negligences of other times. This we shall do in a worthy manner if we refrain ourselves from all sin and give ourselves to prayer with tears, to reading, to compunction of heart, and to abstinence. Therefore during these days let us add something to our ordinary burden of service, such as private prayers or abstinence from food and drink, so that each one may offer up to God in the joy of the Holy Ghost something over and above the measure appointed to him: that is, let him deny his body in food, in drink, in sleep, in superfluous talking, in mirth, and withal long for the holy feast of Easter with the joy of spiritual desire.

*Let each one, however, make known to his Abbot what he offers up, and let it be done with the assistance of his prayers and with his permission; because that which is done without the permission of the spiritual father will be imputed to presumption and vainglory, and will merit no reward. All things, therefore, are to be done with the permission of the Abbot. *

ewtn.com/library/priests/benrule.htm

 

[crossfaith]

To everyone who advised me to see a spiritual director ~ thank you. I did go see a spiritual director and he told me there was no need to do penance or fasting, but he told me i could consult with other priests on this if i liked, since he knew it was a Catholic tradition, though he doesn’t see a need for it in this day and age. As a good catholic should be, i will be completely obedient to his decision… though i dont agree with him that it is unnecessary so i will be talking to other priests about it as well.

To make things clearer to you all, i actually have a goal, there are certain people in my life who are leading lives that will ultimately lead them away from God and lead others away as well.
Ive tried to live my life as a good Catholic as an example to them, and pray for them but what they’re doing is actually really scary and I’m worried about them. If they converted they would be the most amazing Catholics and i could see them bringing more people back to the church rather than away from it. A few of my role models are those three children at fatima~ St Jacinta, St Francisco and Sr Lucia, thus why i chose to try to do penance as they did with a rope around my waist (but i used twine instead), and it’s also the reason why i firmly believe in penance, which is what the angel at fatima instructed us to do for the conversion of sinners.

Another thing, i have no inclination towards scrupulousness, but i realised after reading many accounts on saints who performed acts of penance that they all had spiritual directors - thats why i thought i should ask, since i was so unsure and this is all new to me. But I’m desperate. So….

btw @ ItTakesAllKinds
Im not in need of mental help but thanks for the concern. Christ instructed us to take up our crosses and follow him, but at the same time he ordered us to love others as we love ourselves. Thus using ourselves as a measure to love others we must look after our bodies as they are temples of the Holy Spirit. I would never do anything to jeopardise my health. But at the same time practicing self denial and performing acts of penance can help us grow closer to God - as we start to gain control over our own desires and natural inclinations (whether they be things like sleep or other desires like cute clothes).
A person who has complete control over himself is more useful to God than a person who gives in to every whim or trail.
If your not Catholic and you dont believe in this, then I can see why you would think i need help, but I believe in God and i believe He is a Just God. And all sin is offensive to Him and requires justice. Thus why suffering on behalf of others can be redemptive. Soooo yeah~~

So thanks guys for your (name removed by moderator)ut and God Bless~~<3

 

[Don_Ruggero]

To everyone who advised me to see a spiritual director ~ thank you. I did go see a spiritual director and he told me there was no need to do penance or fasting, but he told me i could consult with other priests on this if i liked, since he knew it was a Catholic tradition, though he doesn’t see a need for it in this day and age. As a good catholic should be, i will be completely obedient to his decision… though i dont agree with him that it is unnecessary so i will be talking to other priests about it as well.

To make things clearer to you all, i actually have a goal, there are certain people in my life who are leading lives that will ultimately lead them away from God and lead others away as well.
Ive tried to live my life as a good Catholic as an example to them, and pray for them but what they’re doing is actually really scary and I’m worried about them. If they converted they would be the most amazing Catholics and i could see them bringing more people back to the church rather than away from it. A few of my role models are those three children at fatima~ St Jacinta, St Francisco and Sr Lucia, thus why i chose to try to do penance as they did with a rope around my waist (but i used twine instead), and it’s also the reason why i firmly believe in penance, which is what the angel at fatima instructed us to do for the conversion of sinners.

Another thing, i have no inclination towards scrupulousness, but i realised after reading many accounts on saints who performed acts of penance that they all had spiritual directors - thats why i thought i should ask, since i was so unsure and this is all new to me. But I’m desperate. So….

btw @ ItTakesAllKinds
Im not in need of mental help but thanks for the concern. Christ instructed us to take up our crosses and follow him, but at the same time he ordered us to love others as we love ourselves. Thus using ourselves as a measure to love others we must look after our bodies as they are temples of the Holy Spirit. I would never do anything to jeopardise my health. But at the same time practicing self denial and performing acts of penance can help us grow closer to God - as we start to gain control over our own desires and natural inclinations (whether they be things like sleep or other desires like cute clothes).
A person who has complete control over himself is more useful to God than a person who gives in to every whim or trail.
If your not Catholic and you dont believe in this, then I can see why you would think i need help, but I believe in God and i believe He is a Just God. And all sin is offensive to Him and requires justice. Thus why suffering on behalf of others can be redemptive. Soooo yeah~~

So thanks guys for your (name removed by moderator)ut and God Bless~~<3

Have you considered the possibility of joining one of the third orders secular…such as the Secular Franciscans, the Lay Carmelites [attached to the Ancient Observance Carmelites], the Secular Carmelites [attached to the Discalced Teresian Reform Carmelites] or the Lay Dominicans or, for that matter, as a Benedictine Secular Oblate?

The members lead a more intense life of prayer and penance than other laity, typically. It is structured and nicely, as well as soundly, ordered…and you would have the benefit of a rule of life to follow as well as a priest to help you live the spirituality and the charism of the Order while remaining a person in the world? It is something to consider. Lay people who are married as well as single and in all situations of life are members and there is no enduring commitment until one has lived the life for many years.

It was in part the vision of Our Lady at Fatima as Our Lady of Mount Carmel in October 1917 that led Sister Lucia to choose to transfer from a Dorothean Convent to a Carmelite cloistered monastery in Coimbra.

You have excellent exemplars in Jacinta, Francisco and Lucia.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

To everyone who advised me to see a spiritual director ~ thank you. I did go see a spiritual director and he told me there was no need to do penance or fasting, but he told me i could consult with other priests on this if i liked, since he knew it was a Catholic tradition, though he doesn’t see a need for it in this day and age. As a good catholic should be, i will be completely obedient to his decision… though i dont agree with him that it is unnecessary so i will be talking to other priests about it as well.

To make things clearer to you all, i actually have a goal, there are certain people in my life who are leading lives that will ultimately lead them away from God and lead others away as well.
Ive tried to live my life as a good Catholic as an example to them, and pray for them but what they’re doing is actually really scary and I’m worried about them. If they converted they would be the most amazing Catholics and i could see them bringing more people back to the church rather than away from it. A few of my role models are those three children at fatima~ St Jacinta, St Francisco and Sr Lucia, thus why i chose to try to do penance as they did with a rope around my waist (but i used twine instead), and it’s also the reason why i firmly believe in penance, which is what the angel at fatima instructed us to do for the conversion of sinners.

Another thing, i have no inclination towards scrupulousness, but i realised after reading many accounts on saints who performed acts of penance that they all had spiritual directors - thats why i thought i should ask, since i was so unsure and this is all new to me. But I’m desperate. So….

btw @ ItTakesAllKinds
Im not in need of mental help but thanks for the concern. Christ instructed us to take up our crosses and follow him, but at the same time he ordered us to love others as we love ourselves. Thus using ourselves as a measure to love others we must look after our bodies as they are temples of the Holy Spirit. I would never do anything to jeopardise my health. But at the same time practicing self denial and performing acts of penance can help us grow closer to God - as we start to gain control over our own desires and natural inclinations (whether they be things like sleep or other desires like cute clothes).
A person who has complete control over himself is more useful to God than a person who gives in to every whim or trail.
If your not Catholic and you dont believe in this, then I can see why you would think i need help, but I believe in God and i believe He is a Just God. And all sin is offensive to Him and requires justice. Thus why suffering on behalf of others can be redemptive. Soooo yeah~~

So thanks guys for your (name removed by moderator)ut and God Bless~~<3

Good work .