Do I need to stop having intercourse with my fiancé forever?

[umamibella]

Thank you for this answer. We have been living chaste. I was just wondering if there was anything particularly virtuous about having multiple children. I see a lot of children in some catholic families and I’ve heard the phrase women are saved through child bearing.

Please discuss all these issues with a priest. An annulment is not guaranteed. It may not be granted.
At this point she is still married to her husband in the eyes of the Church.
All this talk of how many children in marriage is jumping the gun.

Only a priest can guide you both through this.

 

[Annie]

We have been living chaste. I was just wondering if there was anything particularly virtuous about having multiple children. I see a lot of children in some catholic families and I’ve heard the phrase women are saved through child bearing.

How wonderful that you two are living chastely!

There is virtue in accepting what God sends you. Each child brings his or her joys and sorrows to the parents, and this is what God sends to those parents “to save them.”

But there is virtue in other sacrifices as well. In your situation, if it is dangerous for your (future) wife to have more children, you two will each make many sacrifices, and that will be what God has chosen for each of you to help save each of you.

I remember many years ago meeting a family with only one child. The parents always talked in a cynical way, so I (to my shame) assumed they were using abc. Turned out she had had many miscarriages before having this one child. And that life will save them, because they accepted the difficulties God sent them.

It sounds like your and your fiancée really have this all together, and I wish you two every happiness!

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

If “all the cards were on the table” in the pre-nuptial interview, possibly putting this wish in writing and expressly saying that it would never be used as a ground for nullity, then I can’t see how it could invalidate the marriage.

If the “cards on the table” at the pre-nup interview were “look – I intend to stay on the Pill for the entirety of our marriage , and that’s non-negotiable”, then that would count as an “intention against children”, and would indicate defective consent. (The cleric at the interview, and celebrating the wedding, might make the prudential judgment that this isn’t a definitive stance that they will hold for the rest of their lives, but just an expression of where their emotions / minds are right now , and therefore, allow the wedding to proceed.)

I had in mind only using NFP, and in this case, resorting to total abstinence through the menopause. The couple would essentially tell the priest “this is what we’re doing, we will not use an immoral means to a good end, but we are absolutely not going to have any more children, we can’t take that risk, it will not be simply a case of ‘being open to life’, we are going to practice total abstinence until the menopause, because that’s the only safe way”. Given the circumstances in the OP, I certainly think this would be a “grave/serious/just” reason to avoid pregnancy. It’s hard to imagine any more needful reason than this.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

I have an inquiry out to the CDF in Rome on this matter

It’s pretty well-established that there’s not a requirement to try to get pregnant; only that a couple promises – by virtue of their consent exchanged at their wedding – to allow non-contraceptive intercourse. (And, to be fair, that doesn’t mean “always and every time”, either. It would be sinful when they resort to artificial conception, but if the plan on the wedding day is “the Pill for five years, and afterwards we start planning our family” is, per se, “open to life”. They’re just going about it in a way that’s somewhat sinful.)

In that this disposition is so nebulous, and so dependent on Our Lord forbearing His prerogative to override the couple’s resolution to avoid children through “making NFP not work for them”, it’s probably nothing the Church actually can speak on definitively. There is the Church’s teaching, expounded by at least three separate Popes, that there have to be “grave/serious/just” reasons to avoid pregnancy, but again, that is pretty nebulous as well. I could be led to concede, in any individual case, that “we just don’t want to have children — that’s our reason” might constitute a “grave/serious/just” reason.

I just have to wonder, though, what kind of home that would be for a child to grow up in, to be aware of this — and this “awareness” could come through friends or relatives of the couple telling the child “your parents were planning on not ever having children, but then you came along”, or even mean little cousins teasing the child, saying “nyah, nyah, you weren’t wanted, you messed up your parents’ plans”.

If a couple does have this intention, it might be better for them just to keep it to themselves. Extended families can be very gossipy, and I know this far too well, because I grew up in one of those families. Not sure what this intending child-free couple is supposed to tell friends and relatives when they ask the inevitable question “any kids in your future?”.

 

[Gorgias]

so dependent on Our Lord forbearing His prerogative to override the couple’s resolution to avoid children through “making NFP not work for them”

That’s not at all what we’d claim, IMHO.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

so dependent on Our Lord forbearing His prerogative to override the couple’s resolution to avoid children through “making NFP not work for them”

That’s not at all what we’d claim, IMHO.

I’m not clear what you are saying here.

The idea I was trying to get across was this (and please forgive me in advance for portraying Our Lord as speaking colloquially like a contemporary American):

Couple: We want a child-free marriage. However, we will not use immoral means to achieve this end. We will use NFP carefully and judiciously to keep from ever having a child. If Almighty God wills otherwise for us, we will accept that and joyfully embrace it, but it’s not our plan.

Our Lord: Well, since you put it that way… as a matter of fact, it IS My Will that you have a child. You’re going to have to put aside this “child-free” business and raise a family. Are you good with that?

 

[Gorgias]

I’m not clear what you are saying here.

The idea I was trying to get across was this (and please forgive me in advance for portraying Our Lord as speaking colloquially like a contemporary American):

LOL! Yeah, I got what you’re saying. I just disagree with it, that’s all.

I don’t see it as “Jesus coming down out of the clouds and saying ‘hey guys, it’s your turn! congrats!’”, as if God forces the issue or takes direct action to make it happen.

It’s procreation. It happens. It’s designed to happen. Now, NFP is very, very good at enabling you to make it happen when you want and enabling you to not make it happen when you do not. But, the point is that it’s a natural process and the couple participates in that natural process. That’s all. No heavy-handed “Jesus says He wants this, even if you don’t” business…

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

I’m not clear what you are saying here.

The idea I was trying to get across was this (and please forgive me in advance for portraying Our Lord as speaking colloquially like a contemporary American):

LOL! Yeah, I got what you’re saying. I just disagree with it, that’s all.

I don’t see it as “Jesus coming down out of the clouds and saying ‘hey guys, it’s your turn! congrats!’”, as if God forces the issue or takes direct action to make it happen.

It’s procreation. It happens. It’s designed to happen. Now, NFP is very, very good at enabling you to make it happen when you want and enabling you to not make it happen when you do not. But, the point is that it’s a natural process and the couple participates in that natural process. That’s all. No heavy-handed “Jesus says He wants this, even if you don’t” business…

We probably don’t so much “disagree” on this, as we are coming at the same issue from two different angles.

As you well point out, the unimpeded generative act is designed for procreation. Our Lord has a decided preference, if God can be spoken of as having “preferences”, for procreation rather than non-procreation. The clear words of Scripture are “be fruitful and multiply”, not “be fruitful and multiply unless you just feel like that’s ‘not your thing’, in which case, enjoy your child-free marriage, I know you love each other so much, be at peace”. If a couple has said, in essence, "having children ‘just isn’t our thing’ ", and if they use NFP towards this end, it is entirely possible that Our Lord could take this as hubris on their part, and could say “it may not be ‘your thing’, but it most certainly is ‘My thing’ — ever read My Word? — congratulations, you’re now parents!”.

Every breath we take is dependent on His holy will.

 

[Gorgias]

If a couple has said, in essence, "having children ‘just isn’t our thing’ " , and if they use NFP towards this end, it is entirely possible that Our Lord could take this as hubris on their part, and could say “it may not be ‘your thing’, but it most certainly is ‘My thing’ — ever read My Word? — congratulations, you’re now parents!”.

So, I think I see it from the other side of things. God invites us to cooperate with him in the act of procreation. (After all, we do the ‘physical’ side, and then He does the ‘ensoulment’ side.). So, with the exception of the Annunciation, God doesn’t “force” impregnation on anyone. Rather, He honors our decisions and actions, and when they lead to conception, He participates in (validates? blesses?) the parents’ actions in the act of procreation by ensouling the child whom they are conceiving.

The initiative is ours; the subsequent blessing is His.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

If a couple has said, in essence, "having children ‘just isn’t our thing’ " , and if they use NFP towards this end, it is entirely possible that Our Lord could take this as hubris on their part, and could say “it may not be ‘your thing’, but it most certainly is ‘My thing’ — ever read My Word? — congratulations, you’re now parents!”.

So, I think I see it from the other side of things. God invites us to cooperate with him in the act of procreation. (After all, we do the ‘physical’ side, and then He does the ‘ensoulment’ side.). So, with the exception of the Annunciation, God doesn’t “force” impregnation on anyone. Rather, He honors our decisions and actions, and when they lead to conception, He participates in (validates? blesses?) the parents’ actions in the act of procreation by ensouling the child whom they are conceiving.

The initiative is ours ; the subsequent blessing is His .

Okay, I’ll buy that, though I have to doubt that “be fruitful and multiply” is just an “invitation”.

 

[Sjg00]

Yes I know annulments are never garenteed but I feel as though she must be able to get one because she’s never even been baptized. My conscience has been troubled deeply by this dilemma. I want to follow my faith but I also love my daughter and fiancé. They would be broken if I had to leave them and so would I. Also they both depend of me financially . I can’t just kick them out until she gets her marriage annulled can i? We’ve met with a advocate and are still gathering documents. I only go to rcia once a month due to work schedule but I think maybe I should go to church on Sunday to see if I could speak with a priest to help me know what I should do.

 

[Motherwit]

You’re in a complicated situation. Keep up a relationship with the RCIA team and a Priest but find an NFP adviser who should be up with all the modern means of fertility tracking. When I was married more than 30 years ago, we were sent off with a huge book of paper charts and an analogue thermometer. Today, I’m blown away by all the technology and methods available. By Gods grace you’ve been called to be courageous in following Christ. It’s not easy but it’s rewarding. God bless.

 

[umamibella]

see if I could speak with a priest to help me know what I should do.

This is a very good idea. We could give you bad advice.