Do I report a family member to DWP for benefit fraud?

[YADA]

I’m in a bit of a moral dilemma.

I’ve just found out that a family member claims £113 a week in disability benefits as she claims she cannot dress herself and cannot tie her shoe laces - so she needs assistance each morning and night.

This person does have a slight personality disorder and was slower to learn these skills as as child, taking an extra year or two to develop these skills than most children. However there is no issue now, she is now 21 and absolutely fine.

It’s not really an option to talk to this person directly without it turning into a major issue, so I guess I either leave it and watch her take over £400 of tax payers money each month - which should be being spent the on the NHS, police or schools etc.

There it’s a way of anonymously reporting her, I would be able to provide good sources for the them to put a good case together - writing this it sounds like my mind is made up but has anyone been in anyone simular position or how can it look to my faith to guide me

Thanks in advance,

Michael

Hi Michael -

You are in a tough spot. I understand the posters who say that disabilities are not always easy to see so its hard to know … and that your family member was probably vetted -

My thoughts are that as a family member - you probably would not post here seeking advice if you did not truly feel and or know that there is some fraud taking place … and there truly are Doctors, Lawyers and others - including family members who turn a blind eye to fraud … in fact - my guess is that every fraud for welfare, SSI, Workers Compensation etc there are family and friends who know it is happening and they say nothing.

Why - because while some people would not walk into a store and steal merchandise ir rob a bank - because its the government program - a nameless faceless entity - with deep pockets - people feel entitled, or everyone does it … and a host of other excuses. And until people take a stand and speak up about how this is wrong [and yes for the sake of family - turn in the bad actors anonymously] this theft of assistance will continue and continue to grow … This fraud takes away assistance from those who are truly in need!

With governments spending money they do not have incurring debts that are passed down on to future citizens - fraud and waste needs to be curtailed and we as a people need to make that happen - the government cannot monitor all the people all the time …

**I am not advocating for a citizenry of snitches but our Actions and Speech needs to let those around us know that this behavior is not appropriate or tolerated **- then people wont do it. If someone you know does and you know it - first hand knowledge - then it should be reported like any other crime.

america.aljazeera.com/articles/2013/8/28/the-hand-that-feedsyou.html

nj.com/ocean/index.ssf/2017/06/rabbi_and_several_others_nabbed_in_fbi_raid_over_w.html

justice.gov/opa/pr/retired-judge-attorney-and-psychologist-indicted-600-million-social-security-fraud-scheme

oig.ssa.gov/audits-and-investigations/investigations/aug3-puerto-rico-indictments

washingtonexaminer.com/senate-report-finds-massive-fraud-in-west-virginia-social-security-office/article/2536947

 

[EasterJoy]

No, both aren’t consistent. But I’d go with it over anonymously reporting a relative based on a suspicion.

It’s hyperbole. My point is you aren’t going to make any real difference. If you are doing it because you think you will you are wrong. That by itself doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do it. Also, if you are doing it to make the world more just there are others places I’d start.

I think you and I have both known two unfortunate sorts. One is the kind who is not right, who does not have the capacity to be responsible for themselves and who absolutely ought to have help, even if they are unclear or unwilling to admit the exact nature of their need for help. Yes, I agree that it would be counterproductive and even outright wrong to object because they are “misclassified” or are getting help for reasons that are not true on paper. If someone is getting help they need, it is not unjust to look past technicalities. It may even be grossly unjust to insist on technicalities when it could interrupt their ability to get that help. Very true, and a very important point.

The other sort, unfortunately, is someone who has no conscience about manipulating or lying to others in order to get what they want and seem to exert themselves mainly to avoid honest exertion that would accomplish anything beyond getting them what they want. They steal what belongs to others and bring disrepute on good programs that really help people as being wasteful and futile. It is not impossible that someone with some history of real problems could also be this sort. Being slow does not automatically make someone incapable of deceit.

If there seems little question that someone is in the latter group, it is not a favor to anyone to let the situation go on. They are doing real damage, and it is doing a real good to stop them. It may feel like pulling a weed that will only grow back, but a weed left unchecked can do a great deal of harm. It is worth it to pull weeds that will grow back, to clean up dirt that will only have to be cleaned again, and to insist on honesty in matters that seem small in the great scheme of things. In the great scheme of things, these little thefts add up to a lot and do a lot of damage. It is worth stamping them out.

Having said that, he does not have a duty to report. His only duty is to admonish his cousin if he believes she might have any chance of turning from this behavior. That would be for her own good, if things are as she herself says. If he doesn’t have the courage to talk to her directly, it is probably better to leave the matter alone. He would not do wrong, however, if he were to report this, provided he only communicates his concerns to those who have a right to be alerted about such things. I would think those who work in the field would say something similar: that is, alert us, and then let us decide whether or not any action needs to be taken. Do not spread this story around to anyone who doesn’t have business to know it but might take a lower view of this woman by knowing this information.

 

[gracepoole]

Urgh - it’s comments like this that puts people off ever posting on these boards. I’ve asked a serious question not asked for an argument

What are you talking about? Pianistclare’s comment wasn’t out of line. It actually was pretty rational.

 

[Elena321]

Sorry Michael,but I also agree.
While there are people that intentionally defraud,there are many more people with genuine need.
Even if (hypothetically) your family member did state she can’t tie her shoes when she can,that does not necessarily diminish her struggles in a different area.
Some people with mental illness can work and others can’t and do need a support system.
So while she may look relatively ok to you,it’s not always easy to judge from an untrained outside perspective so it’s best left between her and her G.P.
Her personality disorder (and perhaps she has other unknown mental illnesses or Autism?) may cause her to be very distressed or anxious in a work situation or she may even have cognitive issues as you mentioned she had some developmental issues as a child and these do not usually occur in isolation.

I think you should be slow to form a “judgment” on her situation and not report her.
If she did lie,lying is wrong,but we also should also keep in mind that the requirements for receiving benefits in certain countries may be unnecessarily strict,unfair and lacking in compassion so she may have felt she had to resort to lying out of desperation.
So in reality,looking through the eyes of a compassionate person,her illness/situation may be “worthy” (necessary) of receiving benefits-whether temporary or permanent- however through the eyes of the “government of the day” who may be more interested in cost cutting rather than compassion,she may not meet the requirements.

 

[mommy_k]

I’m in a bit of a moral dilemma.

I’ve just found out that a family member claims £113 a week in disability benefits as she claims she cannot dress herself and cannot tie her shoe laces - so she needs assistance each morning and night.

This person does have a slight personality disorder and was slower to learn these skills as as child, taking an extra year or two to develop these skills than most children. However there is no issue now, she is now 21 and absolutely fine.

It’s not really an option to talk to this person directly without it turning into a major issue, so I guess I either leave it and watch her take over £400 of tax payers money each month - which should be being spent the on the NHS, police or schools etc.

There it’s a way of anonymously reporting her, I would be able to provide good sources for the them to put a good case together - writing this it sounds like my mind is made up but has anyone been in anyone simular position or how can it look to my faith to guide me

Thanks in advance,

Michael

Yes…it’s difficult to hear that someone is defrauding the system when others are working very hard for a living.

To me, if someone is collecting benefits for 1 disability and are demonstrating that they are not disabled in this area it is still fraud…even if they may be disabled in other areas, such as personality disorder or something else…

If the personality disorder is not the disability they claim for benefits they have no right to collect, but there is no way of knowing if this is part of the entire workup on why they were approved…

Idk if I would report them, I would have to really think about it. The worst that can happen I would think…is that they are evaluated again.

 

[Allegra]

Yes…it’s difficult to hear that someone is defrauding the system when others are working very hard for a living.

To me, if someone is collecting benefits for 1 disability and are demonstrating that they are not disabled in this area it is still fraud…even if they may be disabled in other areas, such as personality disorder or something else…

If the personality disorder is not the disability they claim for benefits they have no right to collect, but there is no way of knowing if this is part of the entire workup on why they were approved…

Idk if I would report them, I would have to really think about it. The worst that can happen I would think…is that they are evaluated again.

On the other hand, a person who is receiving disability is under no obligation to divulge the nature of their disability to Uncle Fred or Cousin John. It’s entirely possible that the relative gave the OP that BS reason, but that isn’t the real reason and she and her doctor filled out the real reason on the paperwork.

 

[YADA]

On the other hand, a person who is receiving disability is under no obligation to divulge the nature of their disability to Uncle Fred or Cousin John. It’s entirely possible that the relative gave the OP that BS reason, but that isn’t the real reason and she and her doctor filled out the real reason on the paperwork.

and it is possible that it is purely fraud …

Every person defrauding social programs has family and friends that are aware of their on going fraud and fail to act …

Society seems to excuse fraud like this - its just getting even - or the government owes it to them … everyone else is doing it …

usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2017/06/30/how-did-massive-n-j-welfare-fraud-scheme-work/441804001/

usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/10/05/food-stamp-fraud-sentencing-guam/73402454/

kplctv.com/story/19125947/food-stamp-abuse-charges-filed-against-127-people

abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=127996

wcinsights.com/woman-caught-working-while-collecting-workers-comp/

insurancefraud.org/IFNS-detail.htm?key=21756

oig.ssa.gov/newsroom/blog/jan27-disability-fraud

The OP may not know for sure … but obviously they suspect it … and I will wager in most cases there are people who suspect and dont report - or know and dont report

 

[dedo]

Urgh - it’s comments like this that puts people off ever posting on these boards. I’ve asked a serious question not asked for an argument

Matt 7 vs. 1-5, Matt 25 vs. 31 - 46.

I think these verses should help the O.P.
P.C.'s comment was on the mark. Hopefully, the O.P. will listen and not look for validation to pick on this disabled person who likely depends on this stipend for her rent and food.

In general, it is a good idea when deciding whether to stand up for injustice to ask whether the person / entity you oppose is weak or strong, and whether that person can fight back. In this case, the disabled lady is weak and likely defenseless. So attacking her his most likely an act of bullying rather than some sort of pursuit of justice.

There are scores of examples of corrupt insurance companies denying sick people disability benefits and they look for reasons to do just that. If you are concerned about this industry, first research it thoroughly, become an expert in insurance, medicine, or both – and then act against the powerful, not the weak.

However, the message of Matt: 25 31 - 46 is that the best way to oppose injustice is to serve, help, and spend time with the weak. When we do that, we are on solid ground.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Thanks everyone I’ll have a good think and consider the points raised.

Michael

Given you are a “Catholic under construction”, you need to be talking to a priest about this.

I have doubts you’re going to find what you are looking for exactly on these forums.

 

[mommy_k]

On the other hand, a person who is receiving disability is under no obligation to divulge the nature of their disability to Uncle Fred or Cousin John. It’s entirely possible that the relative gave the OP that BS reason, but that isn’t the real reason and she and her doctor filled out the real reason on the paperwork.

Yes, why someone would share private details on exactly why they are collecting disability is not smart especially if they are performing the tasks that qualified them …

In my mind, if the only correction is a result of reporting them is a reevaluarion of thier file with a doctor exam…if they are legit…they have nothing to worry about.

I still don’t know if I would report them though.

 

[Elena321]

OP:
I would suggest praying for them instead of reporting them.
If you report and she does have a genuine disability (in whatever form) it will likely just result in creating discord and disharmony within your family/relationship.

However,if you pray for them instead,only positive will come out of it and you can pray that if she is able to work (part time or full) that she gets supported in that goal,and that if there are any “antiwork” attitudes on her behalf that God will remove them.
At the same time,praying that if she has a genuine difficulty preventing her from working, that God will allow her to stay supported on benefits.
It is also always good to pray for increased understanding and compassion.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I’m confused. If this family member claims she needs to pay someone to tie her shoes, doesn’t she have to provide a reciept or some sort of proof that she has paid someone to tie her shoes in order to get the money? I suspect one of two things are going on here. Either the family member has more issues going on that require a night nurse that she isn’t telling you and are none of our business or she is taking the money despite not needing the night nurse to tie her shoes and that will come out and take care of itself. I don’t think I would get involved.

I agree.

 

[YADA]

And here are people who defrauded the government for years - what do you want to bet there were friends and family who knew and turned a blind eye …

Its a crime to take benefits that you are not entitled to - it is truly a theft from those in need.

A big reason why government is easily defrauded is because they dont have enough staffing to follow people around to really know the real story is …

Even doctors can be scammed into believing what a patient says - especially for chronic pain complaints and back problems, even mental health issues are easily claimed adn hard to disprove. Thus government agencies ask for tips to identify fraud … nearly every case is found out because someone finally gets mad or they have a falling out …

foxbusiness.com/politics/2017/07/06/nj-millionaires-on-welfare-sting-12-additional-individuals-charged.html

Throughout fiscal year 2016, New Jersey spent $14.5 billion on Medicaid, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation. Throughout the same time period, the country as a whole spent $553.4 billion on the health assistance program.

In another instance, a couple allegedly made $1.8 million through various business endeavors that they had listed under relatives’ names—yet received housing, food and health benefits. They ultimately defrauded the government out of $178,000. The max allowable gross monthly income for a family of five in the state to be eligible for SNAP assistance is $4,385—which amounts to about $52,600 per year.

How many people in need could this theft have served …

 

[mommy_k]

And here are people who defrauded the government for years - what do you want to bet there were friends and family who knew and turned a blind eye …

Its a crime to take benefits that you are not entitled to - it is truly a theft from those in need.

A big reason why government is easily defrauded is because they dont have enough staffing to follow people around to really know the real story is …

Even doctors can be scammed into believing what a patient says - especially for chronic pain complaints and back problems, even mental health issues are easily claimed adn hard to disprove. Thus government agencies ask for tips to identify fraud … nearly every case is found out because someone finally gets mad or they have a falling out …

foxbusiness.com/politics/2017/07/06/nj-millionaires-on-welfare-sting-12-additional-individuals-charged.html

How many people in need could this theft have served …

Yes…

It seems once a doctor signs off they are never seen again by the government doctor…or it is a long time later, as they have been deemed disabled for life.

The benefits,are paid through social security, in the usa and this is a drain on benefits that hard working people have been paying into. How would one feel if it becomes defunct because of fraud?

As for family discord…I would think it would be reported anonymously…so that comment upthread has no merit.

As for compassion, I would side with the honest working people…there is such a thing as partial disability, and programs to help the formerly disabled get back to work.

If a person is destitute, there are other social programs to help them too, so it may be a matter of shifting benefits to another program.
In an honest manner.

Letting people know there are other options is helping them…more so then letting them defraud and live in sin constantly.

 

[Elena321]

And here are people who defrauded the government for years - what do you want to bet there were friends and family who knew and turned a blind eye …

Its a crime to take benefits that you are not entitled to - it is truly a theft from those in need.

A big reason why government is easily defrauded is because they dont have enough staffing to follow people around to really know the real story is …

Even doctors can be scammed into believing what a patient says - especially for chronic pain complaints and back problems, even mental health issues are easily claimed adn hard to disprove. Thus government agencies ask for tips to identify fraud … nearly every case is found out because someone finally gets mad or they have a falling out …

foxbusiness.com/politics/2017/07/06/nj-millionaires-on-welfare-sting-12-additional-individuals-charged.html

How many people in need could this theft have served …

Without doubt,there are people that defraud the system and it is unfortunate as they make it difficult for genuine recipients.
However,I don’t think I would like to be in the position to judge who is genuine and who isn’t as sometimes we can have limited information (as others have mentioned) or we simply arn’t qualified to make an opinion on the limitations on a person/s disabilities.
I guess this is the case for the OP’s situation as while they mention it is a family member,unless they are living with and interacting others that family member on a daily basis,they maybe unaware of the full impact of their disabilities.

It’s also worth considering the political climate-ie:I think the OP mentioned being from England and from what I’m aware there’s a bit of a political climate in England to disdain people in benefits or label them as “bludgers”.
I am in Australia and,while not perfect, here we have a bit more of a compassionate mentality.

I think whatever OP you decide to do should be done with much prayer,and not acting rashly or from bitter emotions etc,but being sure that you have the full information first and also with much prayer to do and think how Jesus would and self reflect that you don’t fall into the popular opinion of the day.

 

[Aggie414]

I would report. Ignoring a wrong – in the case fraud – affects us all. I realize the person is in the UK; but this happens here, too. Those benefits are for people who truly need them and those benefits are paid for by our tax dollars. For someone to obtain those fraudulently hurts society as a whole. And it doesn’t matter that it’s a family member. Wrong is wrong!

 

[SuperLuigi]

I would report. Ignoring a wrong – in the case fraud – affects us all. I realize the person is in the UK; but this happens here, too. Those benefits are for people who truly need them and those benefits are paid for by our tax dollars. For someone to obtain those fraudulently hurts society as a whole. And it doesn’t matter that it’s a family member. Wrong is wrong!

The operative word you are looking for is scandal, which almost nobody talks about anymore.

 

[oldgraymare2]

Without doubt,there are people that defraud the system and it is unfortunate as they make it difficult for genuine recipients.
However,I don’t think I would like to be in the position to judge who is genuine and who isn’t as sometimes we can have limited information (as others have mentioned) or we simply arn’t qualified to make an opinion on the limitations on a person/s disabilities.
I guess this is the case for the OP’s situation as while they mention it is a family member,unless they are living with and interacting others that family member on a daily basis,they maybe unaware of the full impact of their disabilities.

It’s also worth considering the political climate-ie:I think the OP mentioned being from England and from what I’m aware there’s a bit of a political climate in England to disdain people in benefits or label them as “bludgers”.
I am in Australia and,while not perfect, here we have a bit more of a compassionate mentality.

I think whatever OP you decide to do should be done with much prayer,and not acting rashly or from bitter emotions etc,but being sure that you have the full information first and also with much prayer to do and think how Jesus would and self reflect that you don’t fall into the popular opinion of the day.

I agree with your post.

I personally think that people sometimes act with limited information, when they don’t know the whole picture/scenario.

There are stop-gap measures that are already in place for these benefits programs, as it is.

I already mentioned that people who are applying for these types of programs have to provide documentation for the types of assistance that they are applying for.

 

[dedo]

The biggest lesson from this thread is to be careful who you share personal information with.

The number of people with zero knowledge of disability, insurance, medicine, or the particulars of one person’s problems, who have convinced themselves that it is their civic duty to attack a vulnerable person is truly amazing on a Christian forum.

I wonder if any of these people have stood up for something against a powerful person / organization a single time in their entire lives. I seriously doubt it.

If you are ever disabled, keep your mouth shut and say nothing to no one, especially to “relatives”.

 

[YADA]

The biggest lesson from this thread is to be careful who you share personal information with.

The number of people with zero knowledge of disability, insurance, medicine, or the particulars of one person’s problems, who have convinced themselves that it is their civic duty to attack a vulnerable person is truly amazing on a Christian forum.

I wonder if any of these people have stood up for something against a powerful person / organization a single time in their entire lives. I seriously doubt it.

If you are ever disabled, keep your mouth shut and say nothing to no one, especially to “relatives”.

I worked in a federal building where disability hearings were heard … it had lots of security and security cameras - the cameras caught a guy who was so disabled he could not walk and was in a wheel chair … except of course when he got back to his car - then he was able to put the wheel chair into the car and walk around it to easily get and drive away … he learned that day he should have parked at least another block away … that was in the Pacific Northwest - And you can bet that he had family and or friends that knew he was scamming the system - or they are just the most clueless people and not involved in his ‘real’ life.

But here in this $1.2 million fraud case a wife pushed her husband in his wheelchair -
fedsmith.com/2017/03/29/former-postal-worker-guilty-1-2-million-scam/

The indictment also alleged that to promote the fraud, Cathleen Klaffka pushed her husband in a wheelchair when at the VA hospital. This was done to support her husband’s claim he was confined to wheelchair. The indictment contends both knew Richard Klaffka was able to walk without assistance and engaged in physical activities such as hiking, riding a bike and pitching iron horseshoes.

Here is Kansas;
fox4kc.com/2014/07/17/surveillance-catches-people-in-the-act-of-defrauding-disability-fund/

How about the blind man that could drive a boat
dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2545515/Blind-man-collected-175-000-disability-payments-caught-hes-seen-driving-speed-boat-snowmobile.html

Or this woman who defrauded the VA with a 100% blindness claim for blindness for 15 years - while collecting disability she obtained 3 different state drivers licenses with no vision restrictions after passing vision tests AND she held a full time job that required full vision … but no friend or family knew of her scam - riiiggghhhhtttt
fedsmith.com/2017/05/02/woman-heading-prison-defrauding-va-almost-400k-benefits/

Clinical Psychologist convicted in disability fraud scheme
fedsmith.com/2017/06/20/clinical-psychologist-convicted-role-600-million-social-security-disability-scheme/

2 Postal Employees - Workers Comp fraud
fedsmith.com/2017/04/08/two-former-postal-employees-sentenced-prison-workers-comp-fraud/

Social Security Disability Lawyer convicted of fraud
fedsmith.com/2017/03/28/550-million-scheme-defraud-ssa-leads-guilty-plea/

And the woman who killed her husband 30 years ago and then tried to claim widows benefits …
fedsmith.com/2017/05/04/woman-indicted-for-falsely-claiming-social-security-benefits-on-husband-she-murdered/

As you can see from the above - please take the time and read and watch - Its not just the people claiming then benefit - but ALSO at times their doctors and lawyers and yes - even their friends and family that are participating in these fraudulent activities. Whether overtly - openly and actively by assisting in the fraud - or by merely turning a blind eye and ignoring the reality before us … We know that we can sin by Omission and Commission

We should never allow theft to occur and defrauding social services is theft - theft from those who really need it, theft from other programs like schools and infrastructure that are also funded by taxes and theft from the tax payer … Its wrong and if you suspect abuse - turn it in … they can investigate and if there is no abuse then the matter drops … the only way these cases are truly identified is when people speak up … and I do not mean as a snitch because you dont like the person or think they are lazy - but when you see a crime you should report the crime. If you would report the theft of car to the car owner then you should report suspected fraud as well