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Ranklyfrank
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That is beautifully and accurately said. Have you read her poems in Love Poems from God?
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ronnie_bonigli
Guest
Rational thought is great for building an MRI machine or curing Polio or anything else that improves human living conditions, but as a way to know God it’s pretty limited in value. As I had said in the opening post of the William Lane Craig thread; “I’m pretty sure if a Craig ever met a Teresa of Avila or a John of the Cross and explained to them that there must be a God because of the Kalam argument, they’d probably look at him and say “I guess that’s interesting, of course I already know there is a God, excuse me now while I get back to my contemplation”.”
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hazcompat
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From Saint John of the Cross: Ascent of Mount Carmel.
Bk. 2. Ch. 12. #6. The more spiritual a man is, the more he discontinues trying to make particular acts with his faculties, for he becomes more engrossed in one general, pure act, a calm and repose of interior quietude. #7. The soul would want to remain in that unintelligible peace as in its right place. Since people do not understand the mystery of that new experience, they imagine themselves to be idle and doing nothing. #8. They must learn to abide in that quietude with a loving attentiveness to God. At this stage the faculties are at rest and do not work actively but passively, by receiving what God is effecting in them.
peace
Bk. 2. Ch. 12. #6. The more spiritual a man is, the more he discontinues trying to make particular acts with his faculties, for he becomes more engrossed in one general, pure act, a calm and repose of interior quietude. #7. The soul would want to remain in that unintelligible peace as in its right place. Since people do not understand the mystery of that new experience, they imagine themselves to be idle and doing nothing. #8. They must learn to abide in that quietude with a loving attentiveness to God. At this stage the faculties are at rest and do not work actively but passively, by receiving what God is effecting in them.
peace
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hazcompat
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It works with crossword puzzles too. the mind will work for you. just let go.Hadn’t thought of it like that, you’re dead right. I’d been an atheist shortly before, so the key for me may have been having nothing to defend, no belief-in-belief worth worrying about.
Have you ever tried this technique for solving a technical problem? Research it as well as you can then forget about it. You have to learn the difficult trick of not even recalling it for a day or two (that would take you back to square one). But after that nine times out of ten the solution is blindingly obvious. Doesn’t always work but when it does the subconscious or whatever has produced a stunningly simple answer all by itself.
So rational thought may indeed be an impediment. Possibly going the opposite direction, live in the moment, notice the world, random acts of kindness, etc. and just being childlike is far better. I’ve never read up on vision meisters, would that make any sense from what you know of them?
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paduard
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Manifestations that are truly supernatural are usually deemed to fall under three categories which can be very briefly described as
Corporeal (persons, objects etc. - bodily present).
Imaginative (seen in the imagination only).
Intellectual (instantaneous to the intellect).
(Corporeal visions are the lowest in order of level; intellectual being the highest - it being assumed that those with less ‘conviction’ require communications that are the most sensually demonstrative; those who are very advanced contemplatively being completely satisfied [through faith] with the purely spiritual.)
It is generally assumed that any such visions are relatively rare. They usually inform either ‘knowledge’ or the ‘understanding’ - primarily the latter - and may not necessarily be present in the memory at all times.
Corporeal (persons, objects etc. - bodily present).
Imaginative (seen in the imagination only).
Intellectual (instantaneous to the intellect).
(Corporeal visions are the lowest in order of level; intellectual being the highest - it being assumed that those with less ‘conviction’ require communications that are the most sensually demonstrative; those who are very advanced contemplatively being completely satisfied [through faith] with the purely spiritual.)
It is generally assumed that any such visions are relatively rare. They usually inform either ‘knowledge’ or the ‘understanding’ - primarily the latter - and may not necessarily be present in the memory at all times.
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4Horsemen
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When I came back to the Church, or rather, when the Lord pulled me out of the pit of darkness into His refulgent light after several years of atheism in college and beyond, He did it with such intensity that I was sailing on Cloud 9 for quite some time. I had been attending the Life in the Spirit seminars and going to prayer groups, Catholics and Pentecostals together at first until they split. I thought I was preparing to receive the baptism of the Spirit. (I’m trying to shortten a VERY long story). Different sensations occured when I attended as I prayed with the group, such as feeling the presence of the Holy Spirit in a particular place above, warming of hands, strong wave going through my torso with an urgency to witness (as my mother experienced a rush of “wind”) and, finally, when I confessed and then met with a priest who was leading the group, as he prayed over me, I felt like I had tasted the most wonderful wine and the air was sparkling (I wasn’t drunk – didn’t have anything to drink). Then I saw with the eyes of my soul, Our Lord Jesus (this is after the priest left the room to get me some books – he thought I didn’t really receive the baptism in the Spirit because he said people who do cry a lot or laugh). He was standing on the floor but almost as tall as the high ceiling. The feeling of His love for me pervaded my soul. This feeling has happened to me every time a priest prayed over me during that period of time in my life, but I haven’t seen the vision since. I was young but not an impressionable type. After this incredible event, I began reading about the mystics and, of course, St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross became fast favorites.
P.S. I really dislike telling about my personal life, but I feel compelled to do so as God’s will. I had promised Him when I had the urgency to witness but couldn’t due to human failure, that from then on, I would speak out for Him wherever and whenever He calls.
P.S. I really dislike telling about my personal life, but I feel compelled to do so as God’s will. I had promised Him when I had the urgency to witness but couldn’t due to human failure, that from then on, I would speak out for Him wherever and whenever He calls.
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Ranklyfrank
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That is accurate and describes the “ascent.” The Great Accomplishment is to go beyond the peak and return, and simply be present in act as THAT.
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Ranklyfrank
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That assumption is generally faulty and lax. It happens with comparative rarity, but yet with far greater frequency than ordinary imagined. Part of the lack of perception inn this regard is in preparedness, and second is in language. A third factor concerning Christians it that, functionally forgetting that all men and women are made in the image and likeness of God, they tend to believe that such visions are specific only to members of their tradition. They are most emphatically not.
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ronnie_bonigli
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Thank you for sharing, that’s an amazing story. Did you even tell a priest about this experience to see what they thought of it?
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Ranklyfrank
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@ 4Horsemen
Yours is a remarkable, rare, and precious experience. Thank you for sharing it here. such accounts are both encouraging and inspirational.
I would therefore be very careful who you tell your story to, including clergy. When I had a similar experience I was told by different clergy that I was either hallucinating, my hormones were imbalanced, and that I I ought to forget about it and just pray for faith, guidance, and grace. Those comments started my departure from the Church. I’m not recommending by any means to anybody that they do that. But for me it became a necessity. I don’t regret it, but I don’t recommend it either, despite my own issues and questions.
But I do feel that you are brave and that you have done us all a service for opening yourself and sharing in such a profound way. Thank you.
Yours is a remarkable, rare, and precious experience. Thank you for sharing it here. such accounts are both encouraging and inspirational.
I would therefore be very careful who you tell your story to, including clergy. When I had a similar experience I was told by different clergy that I was either hallucinating, my hormones were imbalanced, and that I I ought to forget about it and just pray for faith, guidance, and grace. Those comments started my departure from the Church. I’m not recommending by any means to anybody that they do that. But for me it became a necessity. I don’t regret it, but I don’t recommend it either, despite my own issues and questions.
But I do feel that you are brave and that you have done us all a service for opening yourself and sharing in such a profound way. Thank you.
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4Horsemen
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For a while I saw a nun as a spiritual director. She was kind but not astute in these types of experiences. Then I moved to another state and never found another spiritual director, so I asked God to lead me. God didn’t show me the right priest although I prayed about it, so I thought I shouldn’t seek any assistance from the clergy. We are all on different spiritual paths. May the Lord lead us all to His heavenly kingdom.
As for the vision, I thought it had been an intellectual vision after reading St. Teresa of Avila. But reading an earlier post today, I now think it belongs in the second category, that is, imaginative. Since the incredible incident, I understand how we can see in heaven (or purgatory or hell) without physical eyes. We will know each other and have infused knowledge. As St. Paul exclaimed, “Eye has not seen, nor has ear heard what God has prepared for those who love Him.”
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ronnie_bonigli
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Well, Teresa of Avila was told the same thing, many many times over. Maybe you should try reading some of her books instead of thinking you have all the answers with your new age books and beliefs. I know you think “your way” is so much more “enlightened” than the way of the Christians here, but your beliefs are just that, beliefs, no different or more legitimate than beliefs of the Christians here you appear to think are lagging behind you.
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ronnie_bonigli
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Thanks again 4Horsemen, your experience sounds amazing.
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Ranklyfrank
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Thanks, RB. I have some of her works here and read them. They are next to works by St. John of the Cross, St. Francis of Assisi, Meister Echart, St. Thomas Aquinas, Catherine of Sienna, and others. I read them often and weep or laugh at their beauty. I am no stranger to Catholic theology. And I am not impressed by “new age” tripe. And it is not “my way.” It is congruent with the method of the Saints mentioned and more, but not necessarily Catholic, and going back to before Jesus.
I am deeply sorry that much of St. Teresa’s work was lost to those who opposed her, and very grateful that on her exhumation what was savable of her work was preserved. But that is but one of many tragedies within the Church that I regret and sorrow for.
God, we might consider, did not just appear on the scene in 3CE, or whatever the actual date is. And because Jesus had a Ministry does not mean that God is more or less then or now. So I submit to you that if there is an arrogance, it is in those who consider God the property and authority of only their understanding of their religion. I do not have your answers, I have my answers according to my conscience. And I would like to know in exact and great detail how you acquired yours. I had very similar ones, but something happened that required my conscience.
It was very difficult and traumatic for me to leave the Church. And as I have said another places on here, I do not recommend or advise anyone to leave the Church. That would be foolish. But I do have experience over many years of some ideas that seem to be true regardless of religion. And to me it appears that they are true before one acquires a denominational faith, lacks one, or doesn’t give a hoot. And those ideas are borne out even, as I can best tell, in the Catholic mystics. That is why people of my tradition have a deep and abiding respect and veneration of them.
So I’m sorry if what I say upsets you. It is my best effort by my best conscience and is not to the best of my ability contrary to the Teachings of Jesus. I’m sure your feel similarly about your commitment to your faith, and that is of course admirable. But if according to your faith we shouldn’t talk, that’s OK too. Thanks very much for taking your time to comment.
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fhansen
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I was going to stay out of this one but thought that I might be able to contribute something. I’ve been given a variety of spiritual experiences but the most profound one, by far, was an intellectual vision. In that experience I was engulfed in the presence of an infinitely superior being, but one almost strangely familiar. The qualia was all around me; it was an infinitely huge, boundless, and unconditional love, along with bottomless kindness and goodness that coincided with it. I can’t explain how love can be known, but it can be-it was nearly tangible-and was exuded by the Being whose presence I was in-as if it was simply His chief attribute and to know Him was to know love. The immediate effect on me was complete and total peace and happiness on a level that cannot be conveyed.
It lasted for a fifteenth of a second or fifteen seconds or a minute or whatever but the effects haven’t dimmed in over 20 years. I couldn’t remain standing in this presence. Someone could object that I’ve read the experience through the lens of Christianity but, although I had sought God/Truth most of my life, I certainly wasn’t seeking any such experience-didn’t even know what it was for sure until years later- and the awareness that I had nothing to do with orchestrating it-but that a superior being was doing so- is etched in my mind as indelibly now as it was then-that was simply part of the experience, itself. It was totally a gift-a gift regarding transcendent knowledge that, as far as I know, we can seek for but have absolutely no means of obtaining on our own.
It lasted for a fifteenth of a second or fifteen seconds or a minute or whatever but the effects haven’t dimmed in over 20 years. I couldn’t remain standing in this presence. Someone could object that I’ve read the experience through the lens of Christianity but, although I had sought God/Truth most of my life, I certainly wasn’t seeking any such experience-didn’t even know what it was for sure until years later- and the awareness that I had nothing to do with orchestrating it-but that a superior being was doing so- is etched in my mind as indelibly now as it was then-that was simply part of the experience, itself. It was totally a gift-a gift regarding transcendent knowledge that, as far as I know, we can seek for but have absolutely no means of obtaining on our own.
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Ranklyfrank
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There is One God. To know God as you did/do is a Grace. And in the end, that is all there is.
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paduard
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I must apologise that my contribution was not well put in relation to rarity; to which I meant rarity in the number of visionaries and not the rarity of the number of instances such a soul was in receipt of them.
I agree what you say about ‘not being specific only to members of their tradition’ - for how could I but not agree otherwise.
I do not wish to offend, but in general I do not think you understood fully all that I was saying.
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paduard
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Sorry to quote you from p1; but who or what has Mister Chalmers to do with your post?
And are you saying that there are no nonmaterial elements in the life of heaven; or there are both nonmaterial and material, or a combination of both?
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ronnie_bonigli
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I was being tongue and cheek when I wrote the O.P., I wasn’t even sure what point I was trying to make when I wrote it
but I’m glad I did because there have been some great posts in here. Chalmers is David Chalmers, the philosopher who has written about the so-called “Hard Problem” of consciousness, how to explain how a material object i.e. a brain has experiences of sights, sounds, smells, etc., which are called in the philosophical jargon “qualia”. I was noticing that in intellectual visions, people generally don’t get these qualia as part of the vision. But at this point I’m much less interested in that than in some of the really great experiences people have shared with us here.
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ronnie_bonigli
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Thanks for sharing this experience, another amazing story.
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