Do Jews acknowledge that Jesus did call Himself by the same divine name revealed to Moses?

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Kaninchen said:
I’m sure you believe all that sort of stuff and, usually, I ask people where they get their ideas from but, actually, here I can’t be bothered. Partly because I’m tired of ‘Jews eat babies’ threads and partly I’m wondering just how it is that you think it fits in with what the thread is all about.
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Kaninchen, not all Catholics believe this myth. Some fell for it, but then, they weren’t taught that stuff by the pope! No way! It’s not a doctrine of our faith, believe me!
 
I have not mastered the way to put many quotes or many parts of quote in a way that each would be in those yellow squares. Will anybody help me?
 
Kaninchen said:
As to the comment about the ‘Jewish authorities’ - we can both play those sorts of games but what’s the point? Does it impress either side? Quite the opposite would be my guess.
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Well, why do you take part in this thread?
Moreover, you say “we can both play those sorts of games”…
Actually, I am not playing any game, not any more than Elihu in the Book of Job! My intent is certainly not to hunt witches, especially not witches who are not witches!!
When I speak of the Jewish authorities, I meant those of Jesus’ time up to the time when the first Talmud was published. And I do respect what they usually teach. But what they wrote against Jesus was false! I suppose you have lived in Jesus’ time and have witness enough things to corroborate what they say against him?
Jesus, a magician? Humbug!
 
there are 2,711 pages of Talmud. there are maybe 20 lines of text that might be referring to Jesus. Obviously, no one expects christians to agree with how Jews viewed Jesus when the Talmud was written (which could have been anywhere from 200 to 600 CE, depending on which commentary within the Talmud you are reading – this doesn’t take into account Rashi’s notes/commentary which would have been much later 1100 or so) or other commentaries/notes on the Mishna/Gemara which while not technically part of Talmud, are included).

But this thread asks a simple question. Do Jews believe Jesus called himself by God’s true name. The answer is generally no. And three out of the four Gospels would bear this out, if I remember correctly.

But even more directly, it seems that many christians do not understand that Jesus plays no part in Jewish theology and almost no part in Jewish history (other than how his followers for the last 2,000 years have treated us).
 
With all the respect due to your great people, Kaninchen, it so happened that at one point the Jewish authorities forbidded anyone who would be found or would declare to be a disciple of Jesus of Nazareth to be admitted to the Temple and any synagogue. I think it was decreeted around 135 C.E., but the declared Christians were expelled even before that. It’s something that really happened. I haven’t made this up! I know that after that it hasn’t been nice at all between Christians and Jews. I read in a letter to the editor (in Moment) that there used to be a prayer of curse against the Christians as well as we used to have some prayer for the Jewish people which used to be made in an apparently insulting way to Jews, from what I understand. Did the whole Jewish people have to pay for it? I don’t believe so! The non-guilty ones should be spared… although in practice, it’s far from being the case always, isn’t it?
 
Valke2 said:
But this thread asks a simple question. Do Jews believe Jesus called himself by God’s true name. The answer is generally no. And three out of the four Gospels would bear this out, if I remember correctly.
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If they don’t believe it, how come it’s such a tragedy in a Jewish family whenever one of their own becomes a Christian, even more than if they became Muslims, or Buddhists, or atheists?
 
Lapell said:
Oh, sorry! I had no idea of you being a woman… Only now I notice the ending in -chen, but I wondered what was the origin, or what character would bear a name like that! (We use pseudonyms, don’t we!)
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It’s German for ‘rabbit’ - actually a ‘-chen’ ending in German is ‘neuter’ - ‘das Mädchen = the girl’, for example.
 
Lapell said:
Do you happen to know how Christians read the TaNaKH? Or do you go by what others would say about how we read the TaNaKH?
Did you ever check it out with actual Christians?
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Over the past decade or so (nearly a decade and a half now) of religious message boards (mainly Christian - of many varieties), I think I’ve picked up quite a bit.

You can’t imagine how many people have explained the ‘New Testament’ to me, Lapell, and its relationship to the ‘Old Testament’ - in the hopeless pursuit of my conversion. One of the reasons I don’t spend much time on the ‘Non Catholic Religions’ part of the board is that I’m not really terribly interested any longer in what it is that you believe, whereas I’m still rather interested in the consequences of what you believe.

No, the Tanakh serves entirely different purposes to the two different religions, we read it very differently.
 
Lapell said:
Well, why do you take part in this thread?
Moreover, you say “we can both play those sorts of games”…
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I was quite specific about what I was quoting - your comment about ‘Jewish authorities’, I was pointing out that both of us could make disparaging comments but what would be the point because it would fail to impress either of us - just what your continuing on the subject has achieved.
 
Lapell said:
With all the respect due to your great people, Kaninchen, it so happened that at one point the Jewish authorities forbidded anyone who would be found or would declare to be a disciple of Jesus of Nazareth to be admitted to the Temple and any synagogue. I think it was decreeted around 135 C.E., but the declared Christians were expelled even before that.
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You haven’t got the vaguest idea what was going on in ‘Jewish World’ at the time, have you? Not the slightest!

The most devastating series of events until the Shoah and you think we should have been worrying about being nice to Christians?

Good grief.
 
Kaninchen said:
You haven’t got the vaguest idea what was going on in ‘Jewish World’ at the time, have you? Not the slightest!

The most devastating series of events until the Shoah and you think we should have been worrying about being nice to Christians?

Good grief.
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About what the Jewish people have experienced until the Shoah I do have some idea, madame! Maybe not to its full extent, but yes, I do, thanks in part to Elie Wiesel’s books, and then Chaim Potok’s, and a number of others’, like The Books Of Rachel by Joel Gross… Shalom Asch’s Yehiel… Chassidic stories, too!
Fascinating, troubling at times…
Now, do you put all Catholics (and other Christians) in the same bag, just like many put all Jews in the same bag?
 
Lapell said:
About what the Jewish people have experienced until the Shoah I do have some idea, madame! Maybe not to its full extent, but yes, I do, thanks in part to Elie Wiesel’s books, and then Chaim Potok’s, and a number of others’, like The Books Of Rachel by Joel Gross… Shalom Asch’s Yehiel… Chassidic stories, too!
Fascinating, troubling at times…
Now, do you put all Catholics (and other Christians) in the same bag, just like many put all Jews in the same bag?
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You’ve missed the point completely, I was talking about the date you gave 135 CE.

Look up Bar Kokhba.
 
I am still curious, Kaninchen… if you are not interested in Christianity, why are you participating in some of these Catholic Answers’ threads? You are still welcome as far as I am concerned. I am just curious…
 
MH84 said:
What about in Matthew 16:13, Jesus talks about Himself in the third person.
13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”

How do we know the type of language that was used two thousand years ago? Jesus could have easily talked about Himself in the third person without people being confused.
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Because Jesus acknowledges that the God the Jews believe in is the God of Moses and the I AM and the Father of all the believers including Jesus:

John 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

John 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

Jesus never says he is that God who spoke to Moses. So just a few verses before what should have been translated as I AM HE in 8:58 referring to Jesus being Melchizedek, the whole JESUS = I AM argument is dashed to pieces since right there he says he is not that God, but rather, that God is his Father and the Father of us all.

This is all just a case of sloppy and careless reading by Christians who promote that doctrine.
 
Lapell said:
If they don’t believe it, how come it’s such a tragedy in a Jewish family whenever one of their own becomes a Christian, even more than if they became Muslims, or Buddhists, or atheists?
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I don’t know if that’s the case. I can’t imagine a religious jewish family being happy about a convert to Islam. If it were the case, it may be that far more Jews have been killed in the name of Jesus than of Mohammed.

The short answer is that while we may believe that Jesus never said he was God, the Church and Christians for the last 2000 years believe otherwise.

Nobody likes it when their children abandon their faith.
 
Lapell said:
I am still curious, Kaninchen… if you are not interested in Christianity, why are you participating in some of these Catholic Answers’ threads? You are still welcome as far as I am concerned. I am just curious…
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If you look back, you’ll see that I said I’m interested in the consequences of what Christians believe.

I also have spent (and do spend) a fair amount of time in countries that are ‘culturally Catholic’.

I’m in this thread because I looked in on ‘Non-Catholic Religions’, saw a question directed at Jews and wanted to give the op a straight, if not exactly diplomatic, answer. I’ve spent no time discussing Catholicism, I’ve just been carrying on the theme of my earlier replies.
 
MH84 said:
But Jesus doesn’t say “I am now” (or something like that). Jesus instead seems to say that He existed before Abraham ever did.

The ESV says this: 58Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” www.biblegateway.com

Jesus clearly doesnt refer to Melchizedek here at all, nor does He seem to mention His messiahship. Only His existence.

Also, even if Jesus became the new Melchizedek, that doesnt exclude Him from claiming divinity at the same time does it.
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No Jesus doesn’t say he existed before Abraham did, that’s a misunderstanding. He is saying

MELCHIZEDEK WAS THERE BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS, AND I AM THE PROPHESIED MESSIAH THAT IS LIKE THIS GUY MELCHIZEDEK, I AM GOING TO BE THE PRIEST KING OF JERUSALEM MINISTERING AND RULING ABRAHAM AND ALL HIS CHILDREN
 
Valke2 said:
The short answer is that while we may believe that Jesus never said he was God, the Church and Christians for the last 2000 years believe otherwise.

.
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if a first century Jew says he is the Alpha and Omega, what do you understand from his statement?
 
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