Do Jews acknowledge that Jesus did call Himself by the same divine name revealed to Moses?

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**John 8
54Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
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57"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
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58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds. **
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biblegateway.com/passage/

1. Do Jews actually believe that Jesus did say “I Am” (John 8:58) in the way which is equivalent to YHWH? If so, do they just believe that Jesus was lying or wrongly believed Himself to be God? Or do they believe that the evangelist got the interpretation wrong? Do Jews believe that this verse was an interpolation put in by later Christians?

2. What else could “I am” mean in the context that Jesus said this in? For instance He didnt say “I am…”, He just said “I am” (full stop).

**3. If no other rabbi ever even dared to call himself by the divine name, why didnt they stop and give Jesus some more time to explain Himself? This was something big that no other Jew even thought possible (that a man was calling himself YHWH).

If some of the Jews were starting to believe in Him because of His teaching and miracles, why did they all of a sudden believe that he was doing something wrong by calling Himself “I Am” (John 8:58).**

4. Does “I Am” and “I Am Who I Am” mean exactly the same as each other? In other words, does the name said by God to Moses and the name said by Jesus to the people mean exactly the same each other? It seems to be, because God (in the OT) also said, "This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.’ " (Exodus 3:14)
 
MH84 said:
1. Do Jews actually believe that Jesus did say “I Am” (John 8:58) in the way which is equivalent to YHWH? If so, do they just believe that Jesus was lying or wrongly believed Himself to be God? Or do they believe that the evangelist got the interpretation wrong? Do Jews believe that this verse was an interpolation put in by later Christians?
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Let me ask you from the outset - why do you think we would care? Why would you imagine it would have greater significance to us than what Harry Potter says on page whatever? Certainly why would you imagine that it had any more importance to us than whatever somebody says in some chapter of the Qur’an would have to a Christian?

There does seem to be a kind of assumption amongst some Christians that we Jews spend all our time obsessively trying to find reasons for avoiding being Christians - as if Christianity were some kind of irresistible magnet that one is constantly drawn towards.
 
If Christianity was a magnet to them, then they would have been attracted to it. No. They had to stone Jesus, confirming then that the teaching of Jesus did not attract them.
 
agangbern said:
If Christianity was a magnet to them, then they would have been attracted to it. No. They had to stone Jesus, confirming then that the teaching of Jesus did not attract them.
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That’s an assumption that a Christian might make but, if you don’t think that the Christian scriptures have any more significance than the Qur’an, then it’s just ‘Harry Potter world’.
 
Kaninchen said:
Let me ask you from the outset - why do you think we would care? Why would you imagine it would have greater significance to us than what Harry Potter says on page whatever? Certainly why would you imagine that it had any more importance to us than whatever somebody says in some chapter of the Qur’an would have to a Christian?
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I can see your point here. But Jesus was preaching based on the Torah and said that He was “Lord of the Sabbath” for instance. He was known as a prophet and rabbi at the very least by many Jews. Its not that Jesus came and said that everything that the Jewish people were doing was wrong. Instead, He seemed to tell people how to perfectly practice God’s commandments, and that the gentiles would now be part of God’s covenant that was to be established through Jesus.
There does seem to be a kind of assumption amongst some Christians that we Jews spend all our time obsessively trying to find reasons for avoiding being Christians - as if Christianity were some kind of irresistible magnet that one is constantly drawn towards.
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I myself, didnt assume you did. I don’t think so anyway. Its just that while Judaism is dwindling in numbers and are still waiting for the Messiah, the Catholic Church seems to be really the sign of the New Covenant, the one promised in Ezekiel.
 
MH84 said:
I can see your point here. But Jesus was preaching based on the Torah and said that He was “Lord of the Sabbath” for instance. He was known as a prophet and rabbi at the very least by many Jews. Its not that Jesus came and said that everything that the Jewish people were doing was wrong. Instead, He seemed to tell people how to perfectly practice God’s commandments, and that the gentiles would now be part of God’s covenant that was to be established through Jesus.
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The thing is that before any of that could have meaning to me, you’d have to establish that it should have meaning - otherwise it’s just discussing the significance of something ‘Harry Potter’ said or did, it may have vague literary interest but no more. [This is a notional ‘me’, by the way, I’m not encouraging you to try to convince me!]
I myself, didnt assume you did. I don’t think so anyway. Its just that while Judaism is dwindling in numbers and are still waiting for the Messiah, the Catholic Church seems to be really the sign of the New Covenant, the one promised in Ezekiel.
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We’ve been around a very long time and, in my world, Catholics are drifting off to secularism, just like everybody else.
 
Kaninchen said:
That’s an assumption that a Christian might make but, if you don’t think that the Christian scriptures have any more significance than the Qur’an, then it’s just ‘Harry Potter world’.
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Why, do you think, did they stone Jesus when he said “I AM”?
 
agangbern said:
Why, do you think, did they stone Jesus when he said “I AM”?
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You mean: “What is the literary importance of . . . .?” - because first of all, you’d have to convince me that any of it actually happened!

You’re assuming as fact what is just fiction to me and asking me to comment on it.
 
Kaninchen said:
You mean: “What is the literary importance of . . . .?” - because first of all, you’d have to convince me that any of it actually happened!

You’re assuming as fact what is just fiction to me and asking me to comment on it.
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I see. So, to you, the gospels are just fiction. I hope, Jesus Christ, the main “actor” in the gospels is not also a fiction to you.
 
agangbern said:
I see. So, to you, the gospels are just fiction. I hope, Jesus Christ, the main actor in the gospels is not also a fiction to you.
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I have no more ‘religious’ regard for the whole business than a Christian would have for Mohamed and Muslim scriptures or for Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon.
 
Kaninchen said:
You mean: “What is the literary importance of . . . .?” - because first of all, you’d have to convince me that any of it actually happened!

You’re assuming as fact what is just fiction to me and asking me to comment on it.
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Since you are going down this path… Why do you believe that the Torah is true?
 
Kaninchen said:
That’s an entirely different topic, you’d need a different thread! 🙂
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That’s true.

But you are saying that we would have to prove to you the validity of the Gospels before you’d believe it. But do you even have the same level of proof that what is written in the Torah is from God?
 
MH84 said:
That’s true.

But you are saying that we would have to prove to you the validity of the Gospels before you’d believe it. But do you even have the same level of proof that what is written in the Torah is from God?
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I know it sounds like a ‘being awkward for the sake of it’ thing to say but there are what might be called ‘paradigmatic’ differences between the two religions that make that an almost irrelevant question - something that would need very many threads to discuss.
 
agangbern said:
What or which business?
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It was a figure of speech. I mean that Jesus and the Christian scriptures have the same significance to me as Mohamed and the Qur’an or Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon have to you.
 
Kaninchen said:
Let me ask you from the outset - why do you think we would care? Why would you imagine it would have greater significance to us than what Harry Potter says on page whatever? Certainly why would you imagine that it had any more importance to us than whatever somebody says in some chapter of the Qur’an would have to a Christian?

There does seem to be a kind of assumption amongst some Christians that we Jews spend all our time obsessively trying to find reasons for avoiding being Christians - as if Christianity were some kind of irresistible magnet that one is constantly drawn towards.
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Jews for Judaism is all about analyzing NT passages, it’s reasonable to ask if some Jews here may have done the same. It serves no purpose to constantly stress how unimportant and trivial Jesus is to you, especially when hanging out on a Catholic board says otherwise. :o
 
MH84 said:
  1. What else could “I am” mean in the context that Jesus said this in? For instance He didnt say “I am…”, He just said “I am” (full stop).
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However Jesus was talking about someone specific in relation to Abraham during this entire discussion, so he was referring to being that person. Just as the blind man also said the exact same phrase I AM in relation to what he was being asked in John 9:9 just a few verses later.

Jews were looking for the Messiah who was sworn to be like the Melchizedek who served Abram before he was named Abraham.

Psalms 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

So you will find commentary and explanation of John 8 in Hebrews.

John 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

Hebrews 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

John 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

Hebrews 5:4-6 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron. So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

John 8:55-56 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Hebrews 7:1-2 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;

John 8:57-58 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

I AM THE MESSIAH WHO IS LIKE MELCHIZEDEK

So all this has nothing to do with Jesus saying he is the God of Moses, but he is saying he is this human Messiah who is a priest like Melchizedek as promised in Psalms.
 
Kaninchen said:
It was a figure of speech. I mean that Jesus and the Christian scriptures have the same significance to me as Mohamed and the Qur’an or Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon have to you.
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But certainly truth does not depend on what book we are holding unto. There must be an objective truth. And that objective truth ought to be sought after with open mind and heart.
 
FaithofAbraham said:
However Jesus was talking about someone specific in relation to Abraham during this entire discussion, so he was referring to being that person. Just as the blind man also said the exact same phrase I AM in relation to what he was being asked in John 9:9 just a few verses later.
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No, the man in John 9:9 did not say, “I AM”. What he said is “I am he.” The latter does not mean the same as used by Jesus.
 
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