Do Jews need to covert to be saved?

[EasterJoy]

Traditional Judaism believes in Heaven, Hell, purgatory and also the resurrection of the dead. Whoever told you (a poster a few posts up there) that Judaism does not believe in any of the above is giving you false information.

Where do you think Christianity GOT their beliefs in Heaven, Hell, purgatory and the resurrection of the dead FROM?

In Judaism, Heaven is called the Olam Ha’Ba, or the World to Come. Hell is called Gehinnom. Purgatory is where people are purged of the guilt due to their sins, before they can enter the Olam Ha’Ba (which is why when a Jew dies, other Jews say Kaddish for their souls).

And in Judaism, the resurrection of the dead (which will happen ONLY at the End of Days and to ALL people AT ONCE), is called Techiyat ha’Meitim.

Maimonides, the greatest Jewish rabbinical commentator, said that any Jew who does not believe in the resurrection of the dead is cut off from Judaism.

This is the main tradition that has survived. There have been times when there were different schools of thought on the subject, including the time of the Temple, isn’t that correct?

 

[DustinsDad]

Yes. That Purgatory might be necessary to make me fit for Heaven does not change the fact that those consigned to Purgatory are nevertheless destined to the fullness of eternal life.

Great - we agree on this.

And given this, and given that you stated that the “all” in “all Israel will be saved” includes even Jewish people who die in the state of rejecting Christ prior to this massive wide-scale conversion near the end of time. If they in fact died in the state of culpably rejecting Christ - then they’d lose salvation no? Their choice against Christ is fixed at the moment of their death.

Are you suggesting, therefore, that every Jew who ever lived and who ever will live receives (and accepts) a last-moment-of-life death bed conversion?

If, however, someone is saying at a funeral to the relatives, “Your beloved died a Jew (or a heretic, a suicide, a schismatic, an unrepentant adulterer, or whatever), and therefore we know they are not in Heaven and never will be”, then that person who dares to say such a thing is in heresy. That judgement is reserved for God alone. *What hits the nerve is that there are people who say things like this, under these very circumstances! *This attitude is an offense against hope, as well as an occasion of scandal, so yeah, it is a rather big deal.

The trouble here seems to be in crossing over between discussing the objective reality of a given religion and its consequences versus individuals within them.

These are two different things, it’s between those tangible things we can see (the false teachings therein, the heresies, the rejection of Christ and his Church, etc.)…and an individual within said religion who is thereby condemned barring those extraordinary (and invisible) circumstances or nuances which might join the individual to the soul of the Church.

Of coure we can never know for sure about the state of any individual soul - but we have to state the truth about what we can see, what we do know - the objective reality of the state a person is in and the religion that they belong to.

I think the problem is when we start attributing the possible “nuances” to entire false religions rather than allowing for their possibility for* individuals* within the false religions. That is what leads to the very dangerous heresy of religious indifferentism.

Therefore, we cannot say that a Jew must be known to us to have converted in order to be saved.

No one is saying this 'round these parts as far as I know.

By God’s mercy, anyone who apparently rejected Christ in this life might have repented within that moment which is death, and therefore been forgiven.

I agree completely.

It is possible that the grace to accept the Gospel, even though the Gospel was physically heard earlier, might be withheld until that moment, for reasons known only to God. This is even true if the person is in some way culpable for their “invincible ignorance”, as long as there are mitigating circumstances that render the offense venial. I would go so far as to say we are obliged as Christians to hope for that.

Sure - we have to hope for that (that their rejection was the result of invincible/inculpable ignorance) for those who die outside the visible bonds of Holy Mother Church…but at the same time we have to do everything we can to work against that ignorance or rejection while they are still alive - that means giving them the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[DustinsDad]

Traditional Judaism believes in Heaven, Hell, purgatory and also the resurrection of the dead. Whoever told you (a poster a few posts up there) that Judaism does not believe in any of the above is giving you false information.

Hmmmm. It’s been a while, and I’m not sure of his exact words, so don’t hold me to it. May have just been specifically regarding hell - not sure. I think his screenname was ChosenPeople. I was arguing that these weren’t new inventions - so glad to have your support there .

Anyway - thanks for adressing that part. Now for the second part:

DustinsDad:

Well elaborate for me on this if you will. What is this “saving” of “all Israel” that you speak of? Seriously…

• Is it the salvation of an “earthly kingdom”?* (which seems to be the reason used to justify Our Lord’s crucifixion was that he didn’t meet this expectation)*
• And if so, then is the belief you speak of that dead Jews will rise from the dead and be a part of this earthly kingdom?
• If so, how do you account for the Jews of Jesus’ time who did not believe in the resurrection of the dead? (weren’t the Saducees in this camp?)
• If so, does this mean that Jews who reject the Jewish faith, reject God, also are “saved” in this earthly kingdom? What about unrepentant murderers, rapists, adulterers, etc.? Are they saved in this “earthly kingdom” as well?

I still look forward to your response to this.

Thanks, and peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[HashemEchad]

Hmmmm. It’s been a while, and I’m not sure of his exact words, so don’t hold me to it. May have just been specifically regarding hell - not sure. I think his screenname was ChosenPeople. I was arguing that these weren’t new inventions - so glad to have your support there .

Anyway - thanks for adressing that part. Now for the second part:
I still look forward to your response to this.

Thanks, and peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

There are Jews who call themselves “reform Jews”, and they generally (I found out recently) do not believe in the coming of the Messiah, the rebuilding of the Temple, or the resurrection of the dead. Reform Judaism can be comparable to what Christianity has with Unitarianism. To Orthodox (traditional) Judaism, the reform (and “conservative”, and reconstructionist) movements would be regarded as heretical, and are regarded as such, as a matter of fact. They are akin to someone claiming to be Catholic, yet denying that Jesus was divine, or that Mary was sinless.

But TRADITIONAL Judaism (commonly called “Orthodox Judaism”) believes in heaven, hell, purgatory and the resurrection of the dead, as well as the afterlife. Maimonides and other classical Jewish teachers said that Jews who deny the resurrection of the dead at the End of Days is far from Torah, and is cut off (kareit).

What do Jews believe the afterlife will be like? A place where there is no more suffering, no more pain, and to be always in the presence of God.

We believe that what Jews do HERE, on EARTH, set the stage for what kind of level they will have in the World to Come. The more mitzvos (good deeds, commandments) a Jew does here, the better his station will be in the next life.

I often compare it to seating for a concert. If you do many good deeds and good works, you will have a seat in the orchestra area. If you do few, you will have a seat in the 6th row, balcony!

Hell (gehinnom) is reserved only for the TRULY wicked and evil Jews and Gentiles, whereas The World to Come is reserved for all other Jews and Gentiles.

How does Judaism define “truly wicked”? Jews who worship idols/become involved in idolatry, Jews who willingly convert to other religions, Jews who commit premediated murder, Jews who deny the resurrection of the dead, and the like (but all of those Jews can still go to the World to Come if they sincerely repent of their sin.)

 

[Potato1]

\Hell (gehinnom) is reserved only for the TRULY wicked and evil Jews and Gentiles, whereas The World to Come is reserved for all other Jews and Gentiles.

How does Judaism define “truly wicked”? Jews who worship idols/become involved in idolatry, Jews who willingly convert to other religions, Jews who commit premediated murder, Jews who deny the resurrection of the dead, and the like (but all of those Jews can still go to the World to Come if they sincerely repent of their sin.)

Sort of a damned if you do and damned if you don’t sort of deal in regards to this thread huh?

 

[EasterJoy]

Are you suggesting, therefore, that every Jew who ever lived and who ever will live receives (and accepts) a last-moment-of-life death bed conversion?

I don’t know what every Jew who ever lived is going to get as a reward from God. If my Lord sees fit to forgive and bestow eternal life on every Jew ever born, include Judas Iscariot himself, I won’t raise my hand to object. Do I think it possible that God allows a way for a Jew to cut himself off from Israel? Yes, I do. Jews have free will as much as anyone else, after all. They won’t be forced into eternal life. What it takes to cut onesself off from the people of Israel, though, that is His call, not mine. He knows hearts, not only what the call to each one was, but what each one heard and had the ability to do. I don’t. It is not His Will that I have that information.

I will call all to the Lord with all my heart, I will lament those who refuse for their present loss, but I will condemn no one who seems to refuse. That is not my place, and I have been given to know that in no uncertain terms. By our faith, we continue to hope.

We believe that what Jews do HERE, on EARTH, set the stage for what kind of level they will have in the World to Come. The more mitzvos (good deeds, commandments) a Jew does here, the better his station will be in the next life.

I often compare it to seating for a concert. If you do many good deeds and good works, you will have a seat in the orchestra area. If you do few, you will have a seat in the 6th row, balcony!

Hell (gehinnom) is reserved only for the TRULY wicked and evil Jews and Gentiles, whereas The World to Come is reserved for all other Jews and Gentiles.

This is a place where Judaism differs. I do not mean that Christians believe that what we do now does not matter. Far from it! I mean that eternal rewards are God’s to decide. We trust that God is just, but it is not for us to place expectations on God with regards to how anyone is rewarded…well, that is the teaching of the Church. What any particular Catholic or what other denominations believe is another matter.

This story of Jesus illustrates the point: "The reign of God is like the case of the owner of an estate who went out at dawn to hire workmen for his vineyard. After reaching an agreement with them for the usual daily wage, he sent them out to his vineyard. He came out about midmorning and saw other men standing around the marketplace without work, so he said to them, ‘You too go along to my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is fair.’ At that they went away. He came out again around noon and midafternoon, and did the same. Finally, goiing out in late afternoon he found still others standing around. To these he said, ‘Why have you been standing here idle all day?’ ‘No one has hired us,’ they told him. He said, ‘You go to the vineyard, too.’

When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workmen and give them their pay, but begin with the last group and end with the first.’ When those hired late in the afternoon came up, they received a full day’s pay, and when the first group appeared they supposed they would get more; yet they received the same daily wage. Thereupon they complained to the owner, ‘This last group did only an hour’s work, but you have put them on the same basis as us who have worked a full day in the scorching heat.’ ‘My friend,’ he said to one in reply, ‘I do you no injustice. You agreed on the usual wage, did you not? Take your pay and go home. I intend to give this man who was hired last the same pay as you. I am free to do as I please with my money, am I not? Or are you envious because I am generous?’ Thus the last shall be first and the first shall be last.’ (Mt. 20:1-16)

This is not to say that Christians believe that redemption ought to be taken for granted, for Jesus also warned that no one knows the day nor the hour of the master’s return (for those who don’t know, this is a reference to a different story of Jesus). Those men who were hired last might have been ready to be hired all day. Certainly they went to the town square looking to be hired at some point. It is just that they weren’t called until the end.

Nevertheless, we do not believe that we have with God any sort of quid pro quo agreement. What mitzvah could we do for God, that we would deserve any return? Does not all we have belong to God? No matter what we do for God, He will not realize a profit on us. What would profit even mean to the One by whom all was made, from whom all life comes, and to whom everything belongs? Although some are more faithful, and some are less, all are alike in being the fortunate objects of His generosity. We spend our lives pursuing God’s will, then, not so much because we want to deserve a reward, but because having been made His sons and daughters by the death and resurrection of Jesus, we must desire to act accordingly, even to the death.

How does Judaism define “truly wicked”? Jews who worship idols/become involved in idolatry, Jews who willingly convert to other religions, Jews who commit premediated murder, Jews who deny the resurrection of the dead, and the like (but all of those Jews can still go to the World to Come if they sincerely repent of their sin.)

If I understand you, they can still go, but they’ll be heading for the nosebleed seats, right? You won’t be next to the grandparents, down in orchestra.

I can see how hearing this kind of warning at the knee of one’s parents could constitute a mitigating circumstance for the Jew who will not convert to Christianity. But, again, I do not mean that I may only judge favorably, just not unfavorably. I mean that I may not judge.

Let him who has ears to hear, hear. Sometimes, that takes a lot of courage.

 

[DustinsDad]

…Hell (gehinnom) is reserved only for the TRULY wicked and evil Jews and Gentiles, whereas The World to Come is reserved for all other Jews and Gentiles.

How does Judaism define “truly wicked”? Jews who worship idols/become involved in idolatry, Jews who willingly convert to other religions, Jews who commit premediated murder, Jews who deny the resurrection of the dead, and the like (but all of those Jews can still go to the World to Come if they sincerely repent of their sin.)

Interesting - so the “all” we were speaking of earlier does not literally mean all - as in every Jew who ever lived no matter what. That was what I was arguing against - the literalist interpretation of “all.”

Thanks - and by the way…what brings you to these parts? Are you considering, curious - or “correcting.”

Since one never knows the hour when one is called, since I could be struck dead in a car accident and not get this chance again, I’d like to take this moment to personally invite you to come to your true home - the promise of God to Abraham, Issac and Jacob - the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Salvation awaits you my friend.

There you go - from one lowly man in the pew, to you!

And peace in Christ,

DustinsDad
By the way -

 

[DustinsDad]

I don’t know what every Jew who ever lived is going to get as a reward from God. If my Lord sees fit to forgive and bestow eternal life on every Jew ever born, include Judas Iscariot himself, I won’t raise my hand to object. Do I think it possible that God allows a way for a Jew to cut himself off from Israel? Yes, I do. Jews have free will as much as anyone else, after all. They won’t be forced into eternal life.

Of course, God is perfect, infinitely just and infinitely holy. But he did become Man for us, and showed us the way to Him. And He did reveal some things that are absolutely true and cannot contradict themselves.

I think the fact that he won’t force eternal life on someone, and based on what we know He revealed to us about eternal life with Him, demonstrates that not every Jew is going to automatically get into heaven simply based on their Jewishness - even if they practice today’s Judaism to a “t”…dotting all the is and crossing all the ts. As such, we cannot speak of the entire religion of Judaism as being somehow outside the realm of evangilization - eternal souls are at steak.

The Good Lord died on the cross to bring them home - He shed His blood for them - how dare we even think of letting them live an die without knowing the stakes! And the stakes are these - eternal life or eternal death - the choice is ours. Yours, mine, and every soul on the face of the earth. Jewish folks included.

All that being said, of course there are exceptions to the rule so to speak - those souls invincibly and inculpably ignorant, those souls sincerely seeking God out, responding to the graces given them, who may die with baptism of desire and freed from all mortal sin through perfect contrition, etc. But if we start making the exception the rule, we run the risk of using such “unknowables” as an excuse not to evangilize, no to call those outside the visible bonds of Holy Mother Church to conversion. And if we do that - we’ll have to answer for it. We have to give an account both of what we have done, and what we have left undone.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[EasterJoy]

All that being said, of course there are exceptions to the rule so to speak - those souls invincibly and inculpably ignorant, those souls sincerely seeking God out, responding to the graces given them, who may die with baptism of desire and freed from all mortal sin through perfect contrition, etc. But if we start making the exception the rule, we run the risk of using such “unknowables” as an excuse not to evangilize, no to call those outside the visible bonds of Holy Mother Church to conversion. And if we do that - we’ll have to answer for it. We have to give an account both of what we have done, and what we have left undone.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

That is just my point. “We” don’t make the rules when it comes to any judgement, including the exceptions.

Every soul will attest for eternity, with every aspect of their being, that Jesus Christ is Lord. Whether that will be eternally blissful or eternally punishing depends on the choices each one makes in this life, but none will be saved outside of His Cross and Resurrection (which is to say none will be saved outside His Church) and therefore none will have cause to boast.

It is not only that souls might be lost forever, if we are negligent. It is that they are losing out right now, today. Would you choose to live your life outside the Church, if you were given the option, even if you were guaranteed that you could not lose Heaven? Anyone who would say “yes” does not understand the wages of sin or the gift of grace.

Even if every Jew were to be given eternal bliss, we would be culpable if we did not cooperate with God in His desire that every soul begin to live within that bliss right now.

 

[HashemEchad]

Interesting - so the “all” we were speaking of earlier does not literally mean all - as in every Jew who ever lived no matter what. That was what I was arguing against - the literalist interpretation of “all.”

Thanks - and by the way…what brings you to these parts? Are you considering, curious - or “correcting.”

Since one never knows the hour when one is called, since I could be struck dead in a car accident and not get this chance again, I’d like to take this moment to personally invite you to come to your true home - the promise of God to Abraham, Issac and Jacob - the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Salvation awaits you my friend.

There you go - from one lowly man in the pew, to you!

And peace in Christ,

DustinsDad
By the way -

I ended up here via a search engine a few weeks ago, when I was researching the origin of a Holy Week legend my late mother had once told me about.

When I saw the Jewish-related threads, I decided to stick around for a bit to see what they were all about. The rest is history!

As for your invite to me to apostasize from my birthright faith, I would rather die a truly horrible death than do that. I would never spit in the Face of the God of Israel in such a way.

As I’m sure you feel about your own birthright faith.

 

[Miles_Mariae]

Birthright faith? Yes, I have great trust in the great Faith into which I was born on Easter Vigil - the new life through Baptism.

As for the belief system that I was exposed to as a child, no, of course I would not let anything as arbitrary as family/culture determine my religion.

 

[DustinsDad]

That is just my point. “We” don’t make the rules when it comes to any judgement, including the exceptions.

I agree that we don’t make the exceptions - but I believe Holy Mother Church has laid out in general what those “exceptions” are based on the Reveled Truth of Jesus Christ Our Lord…not on an individual basis (since the exceptions are not knowable to our finite minds in any individual, such are not visible to our eyes), but in general, what must be present at death in a given individual outside the visible bonds of Holy Mother Church.

Every soul will attest for eternity, with every aspect of their being, that Jesus Christ is Lord. Whether that will be eternally blissful or eternally punishing depends on the choices each one makes in this life, but none will be saved outside of His Cross and Resurrection (which is to say none will be saved outside His Church) and therefore none will have cause to boast.

It is not only that souls might be lost forever, if we are negligent. It is that they are losing out right now, today. Would you choose to live your life outside the Church, if you were given the option, even if you were guaranteed that you could not lose Heaven? Anyone who would say “yes” does not understand the wages of sin or the gift of grace.

Even if every Jew were to be given eternal bliss, we would be culpable if we did not cooperate with God in His desire that every soul begin to live within that bliss right now.

By golly - I think we’ve reached common ground! Imagine that

And peace in Christ!

DustinsDad

 

[DustinsDad]

I ended up here via a search engine a few weeks ago, when I was researching the origin of a Holy Week legend my late mother had once told me about.

When I saw the Jewish-related threads, I decided to stick around for a bit to see what they were all about. The rest is history!

Gotcha.

As for your invite to me to apostasize from my birthright faith, I would rather die a truly horrible death than do that. I would never spit in the Face of the God of Israel in such a way.

I’m sure you feel about your own birthright faith.

I hear what you are saying - but let me engage you in a little bit of dialogue.

Well, I don’t want to place my eternal destiny in the hands of my - birthright faith simply because it happened to be my birthright faith. My birthright faith could be athiesm, satanism, or who knows what else…in which case I would be compelled by God’s grace to seek Him out and to find Him…to find the One True God.

Do we agree that both my “birthright faith” and your “birthright faith” cannot be true at the same time? Either

• yours is right and mine is wrong, or
• mine is right and yours is wrong, or
• both are wrong and something else is right.
  I’ll leave it here for now and see if we agree so far…

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[HashemEchad]

Gotcha.

I hear what you are saying - but let me engage you in a little bit of dialogue.

Well, I don’t want to place my eternal destiny in the hands of my - birthright faith simply because it happened to be my birthright faith. My birthright faith could be athiesm, satanism, or who knows what else…in which case I would be compelled by God’s grace to seek Him out and to find Him…to find the One True God.

Do we agree that both my “birthright faith” and your “birthright faith” cannot be true at the same time? Either

• yours is right and mine is wrong, or
• mine is right and yours is wrong, or
• both are wrong and something else is right.
  I’ll leave it here for now and see if we agree so far…

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

This is how I see it, and how Judaism sees it too:

MY religion is right FOR ME

YOUR religion is right FOR YOU

The Jews were given a special Covenant to adhere to. We were told we would be blessed if we kept it, and cursed if we broke it. The reason for so many punishments of the Jewish people over the last 3500 years is because, often, we BROKE the Covenant. The Torah itself states that this would happen, and it did, many times.

Gentiles are also given a Covenant with God. It is called the 7 Laws of Noah. These laws are the basic rules of moral conduct for all mankind. They include laws against cruelty to animals, laws against murder, idolatry, and a requirement to establish courts of justice.

If a Gentile keeps all of those, according to our belief he is guaranteed a place in the World to Come.

For a Jew, it is much harder…we have 613 commandments to keep to assure us a good place in the World to Come.

We believe that the more mitzvot (good deeds) we do here in this life, the quicker the Messiah will come!

 

[DustinsDad]

This is how I see it, and how Judaism sees it too:

MY religion is right FOR ME

YOUR religion is right FOR YOU

I gathered that from your earlier post - but I was asking about truth - do you believe in absolute and objective truth?

And if so, how can both religions be true at the same time?

The Jews were given a special Covenant to adhere to. We were told we would be blessed if we kept it, and cursed if we broke it. The reason for so many punishments of the Jewish people over the last 3500 years is because, often, we BROKE the Covenant. The Torah itself states that this would happen, and it did, many times.

Gentiles are also given a Covenant with God. It is called the 7 Laws of Noah. These laws are the basic rules of moral conduct for all mankind. They include laws against cruelty to animals, laws against murder, idolatry, and a requirement to establish courts of justice.

If a Gentile keeps all of those, according to our belief he is guaranteed a place in the World to Come.

For a Jew, it is much harder…we have 613 commandments to keep to assure us a good place in the World to Come.

We believe that the more mitzvot (good deeds) we do here in this life, the quicker the Messiah will come!

That’s all exactly the same thing as the other Jewish fellas was saying. But for now, let’s stick with the top portion - I think we’ve got to get a grasp on this truth issue first.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[HashemEchad]

I gathered that from your earlier post - but I was asking about truth - do you believe in absolute and objective truth?

And if so, how can both religions be true at the same time?

That’s all exactly the same thing as the other Jewish fellas was saying. But for now, let’s stick with the top portion - I think we’ve got to get a grasp on this truth issue first.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

All I can tell you is, for JEWS, keeping Torah is THE TRUTH. It is the only truth God allows for us.

I will also tell you what the Rambam (Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon) has written…he was a medieval Spanish rabbincal authority and sage, very well known in both Christian and Jewish circles)…

The Rambam says that the reason why God allowed both Islam and Christianity to develop was so as to give Gentiles a way to believe in ethical monotheism without needing to become Jews.

Before Christianity, practically all Gentiles were pagan polytheists…many woshipped a plethora of deities, and others sacrificed humans to their pagan deities, sometimes, even their own children.

Via Christianity, the JEWISH ethics and basic monotheistic views were transmitted to Gentiles for the first time in history.

Also, via Christianity, the JEWISH Bible (which includes the Torah) was transmitted worldwide to peoples that otherwise would never have heard of monotheism…and it was done by Christian missionaries!

So you see, according to the Rambam, your religion ( as well as Islam, to a degree) did some of Judaism’s work FOR us.

This is another reason WHY Jews do not need to become Muslims or Christians…those religions, in our belief, were permitted by God to develop to serve a purpose God had, that was separate from His purpose for US. This is how I can say that Christianity is true FOR YOU, but not for US. I would tell a Muslim the same thing: Islam is true FOR YOU.

Now, when the true Messiah does come, not only Jews but also Gentiles will be fully prepared for his coming, because NOW, even Gentiles know what the messiah concept is all about, and there will be no surprises!

 

[stmaria]

Now, when the true Messiah does come, not only Jews but also Gentiles will be fully prepared for his coming, because NOW, even Gentiles know what the messiah concept is all about, and there will be no surprises!

But since Christians believe that the true Messiah has already come as Jesus Christ,don’t you think that this person the Jews consider to be the Messiah will be rejected by Christians.? Won’t your Messiah be considered a false prophet or the anti-Christ by Christians?

 

[EasterJoy]

I agree that we don’t make the exceptions - but I believe Holy Mother Church has laid out in general what those “exceptions” are based on the Reveled Truth of Jesus Christ Our Lord…not on an individual basis (since the exceptions are not knowable to our finite minds in any individual, such are not visible to our eyes), but in general, what must be present at death in a given individual outside the visible bonds of Holy Mother Church.

By golly - I think we’ve reached common ground! Imagine that

And peace in Christ!

DustinsDad

OK, so let me tell you what Christianity looks like to a lot of Jews:
It looks like the religion that’s in power, that wants to make the rules for everybody else, while not observing them itself.

It says it is the fulfillment of the Law, an invitation to serve God as His free sons and daughters, in lives given over to the imitation of a humble master in love, joy, and self-sacrifice, but is used as an excuse to do things that don’t even meet the standard of common decency. Think of what 9/11 made Islam look like to us, and know that Christianity has been used as the excuse to hate and persecute Jews for centuries.

It is a religion that is widely followed when it is fun, that in fact is obnoxious in its ubiquity when it is fun–if you find it obnoxious when the Christmas advertisements start up in October, imagine what it is like for a Jew–but that is conspicuous in its absence when it is not fun. Do you have any idea, of the whites who were willing to put their lives on the line so that blacks had civil rights, how many of them were Jews? They had to ask themselves, “Hey, I know the demographics. I know their rhetoric. Where are the rest of them?” And who were the ones they were fighting, in order to secure these basic rights for others? You guessed it. Church-attending, Bible-quoting Christians. Again, we have centuries of history to overcome on that count.

You have to realize that the famous Jewish guilt is altogether different than Catholic guilt. It is very hard to explain, but I will try. Catholic guilt says, “I am an awful sinner. I do awful things and that makes me a bad person”. (Mind you, I am not saying the Catholic Church teaches that, since the Church teaches that guilt should only be the spur that moves you toward virtue and reconcilliation, not self-loathing. I am only telling you what we look like on from the outside.) Jewish guilt says, “I am a member of a tribe chosen by God to show his greatness in the world and to heal the brokenness that is in the world. I have duties (mitzvos) to perform, and I have not done them.” Do you see the difference, between “I am a terrible, unlovable person” and “I am defined by ‘we’, and we are better than this”? You can see why a Jew wouldn’t find garden-variety Catholic guilt to be much of a witness for Resurrection.

If you want to convert Jews to the Gospel, then, you have to start by living the Gospel. As St. Francis said, “Preach always. When necessary, use words.” Otherwise, it would be nuts to go up to a Jew and say, “Your religion is false”, because they’re going to say, “Oh, yeah, well, it gave the world your leader, and quite frankly, you guys have been going downhill ever since.” On the bald facts, that is pretty hard to argue with.

Or, as Mark Twain quipped once: “Christianity is a great religion. Somebody should try it some time.” If the veil remains over the eyes of the Jews, I fear very much that we will have to take the lion’s share of the blame.

It will be our lives, and not our rhetoric, that is the first to condemn us and exonerate those who did not come to believe. For what did Jesus say as His parting command? “I give you a new commandment: Love one another. Such as my love has been for you, so must your love be for each other. This is how all will know you for my disciples: your love for one another.” (John 13:34-35)

Read through the posts in this forum, and try to tell the Jews that we witness Jesus Christ by our love for one another. Talk about asking someone to “not see, and yet believe.”

Ah, well. Time to get with it…

 

[HashemEchad]

But since Christians believe that the true Messiah has already come as Jesus Christ,don’t you think that this person the Jews consider to be the Messiah will be rejected by Christians.? Won’t your Messiah be considered a false prophet or the anti-Christ by Christians?

When the true Messiah comes, EVERYBODY will know it.

 

[stmaria]

When the true Messiah comes, EVERYBODY will know it.

Not according to the New Testament.
Luke 21:8 " Take care not to be mislead. Many will come in my name saying, “I am he” and " the time is at hand" Do not follow them.

Matthew 24:24 “False messiahs and false prophets will appear, performing signs and wonders so great as to mislead even the chosen if that were possible”