Do Jews need to covert to be saved?

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Pax_et_Caritas

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I received the following private message in response to one of my posts, in which I indicated that the Jews need to covert to be saved. The person who pm’d me also posted the same argument publicly, so I don’t think they will mind my publicly posting their pm.
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Yerusalyim:
Your Response to the question of Jews needing to convert was spot on WRONG. You need to become aware of what the Church actually teaches rather than giving your own opinion…respectfully
Before responding, let me say that I realize why many people have been deceived on this point. After all, for nearly 40 years our fearless Church leaders have given every reason to believe that the old Covenant “has never been revoked by God”. This heresy has even been enshrined in local catechisms, and publicly promoted from the highest levels of the Church. Therefore, it is understandable that many well meaning Catholics would have fallen into this heresy… thanks to the heretics in high places within the Church.

I only hope that once the truth has been shown, these well meaning, but deceived, Catholics will renounce this error while there is still time. I’ll begin with a quote from the infallible council of Florence when this dogma was defined de fide.

Council of Florence: It [the Catholic Church] firmly believes, professes, and teaches that the matter pertaining to the law of the Old Testament, of the Mosaic law, which are divided into ceremonies, sacred rites, sacrifices, and sacraments, because they were established to signify something in the future, although they were suited to the divine worship at that time, after our Lord’s coming had been signified by them, ceased, and the sacraments of the New Testament began; and that whoever, even after the passion, placed hope in these matters of the law and submitted himself to them as necessary for salvation, as if faith in Christ could not save without them, sinned mortally. Yet it does not deny that after the passion of Christ up to the promulgation of the Gospel they could have been observed until they were believed to be in no way necessary for salvation;** but after the promulgation of the Gospel it asserts that they cannot be observed without the loss of eternal salvation**. All, therefore, who after that time observe circumcision and the Sabbath and the other requirements of the law, it declares alien to the Christian faith and not in the least fit to participate in eternal salvation, unless someday they recover from these errors."

This 2000 year old teaching of the Church, which was infallibly defined above, was also taught by Pope Pius XII in the encyclical Mystici Corporis Christi just before Vatican II:

Pope Pius XII: "And first of all, by the death of our Redeemer, the New Testament took the place of the Old Law which had been abolished; then the Law of Christ together with its mysteries, enactments, institutions, and sacred rites was ratified for the whole world in the blood of Jesus Christ. For, while our Divine Savior was preaching in a restricted area – He was not sent but to the sheep that were lost of the house of Israel -the Law and the Gospel were together in force; but on the gibbet of his death Jesus made void the Law with its decrees, fastened the handwriting of the Old Testament to the Cross, establishing the New Testament in His blood shed for the whole human race. “To such an extent, then,” says St. Leo the Great, speaking of the Cross of our Lord, “was there effected a transfer from the Law to the Gospel, from the Synagogue to the Church, from many sacrifices to one Victim, that, as our Lord expired, that mystical veil which shut off the innermost part of the temple and its sacred secret was rent violently from top to bottom.” (Mystici Corporis, #29).

I’ll end with one additional quote from Dr. Ludwig Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (pg 292, published just before Vatican II:

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma: “On the Cross, Christ consummated the building of the Church. The Old Covenant ceased and the New Covenant sealed with the blood of Christ began. The Fathers and theologians see in the flowing forth of the blood and water from the opened side of Jesus a symbol the emergence of the Church.”

This is what the Church has taught from day one. The unfortunate fact that many of our Church leaders are heretics who deny this dogma does not make it go away. It is just as true today as it was when it was infallibly defined as a dogma of the Faith at the Council of Florence. Anyone who denies a dogma is therefore a heretic. This brings up the last quote which not only confirms that the Jews must convert to be saved, but places those who deny this dogma (the heretics) in the same unfortunate eternal fate as the unbelieving Jews.

continue…
 
continuation

Pope Eugebe IV: "The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and teaches, that none of those who are not within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but Jews, heretics and schismatics, can ever be partakers of eternal life, but are to go into the eternal fire ‘prepared for the devil, and his angels’ (Mt. 25:41)., unless before the close of their lives they shall have entered into that Church; also that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is such that the Church’s sacraments avail only those abiding in that Church, and that fasts, almsdeeds, and other works of piety which play their part in the Christian combat are in her alone productive of eternal rewards; moreover, that no one, no matter what alms he may have given, not even if he were to shed his blood for Christ’s sake, can be saved unless he abide in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church." (Mansi, Concilia, xxxi, 1739; Pope Eugene IV, in the bull, Cantate Domino, 1441).

Let this post be a warning to those who have followed the blind leaders of the blind into this error. Let us realize that the Church does not change its teachings. In the days of the Arian crisis it is said that 97% of the Bishops denied the divinity of Jesus. Just as the truth did not change in those days when almost all of the hierarchy fell into error, neither has it changed in our day. Let us remain faithful to what the Church teaches, even if 99% of our leaders have not.
 
If the Old Covenant is salvific, the New Covenant is unnecessary and Christ died needlessly. Whether or not the Old Covenant even exists is irrelevant, the Church has infallibly defined it is not salvific.
 
*Almighty and eternal God, who dost also not exclude from thy mercy the Jews: hear our prayers, which we offer for the blindness of that people; that acknowledging the light of thy Truth, which is Christ, they may be delivered from their darkness. Through the same Lord Jesus Christ, who lives and reigns with thee in the unity of the Holy Spirit, God, for ever and ever. *

:highprayer: Amen! :highprayer:
 
Don’t worry, I firmly believe it was abrogated. My post was misinterpreted.
 
Pax,

First and foremost, I never, EVER said the Mosaic Law had the power to save. Salvation comes from Christ Jesus. My contention is that the Mosaic Law is not null, not revoked, not empty. In Christ the Mosaic Law is fulfilled…not revoked.

However, if the Mosaic Law is Null and REVOKED the Israel is no longer God’s Chosen People…which makes God a liar because He tells us in the bible that his gifts and Call are IRREVOCABLE.

Rather than turning to ancient texts on which I suppose you are not an expert, and which I know I am not, I’ll listen to the voice of the magesterium of the Church as pronounced NOT in a Local Catechim, but in THE CATECHISM of the CATHOLIC CHURCH (CCC). Mind you, none of what you site is an infallible declaration by the Church, nor is the CCC in and of itself infallible, so what you sited was an older understanding, for which I am betting neither of us are qualified to completely decipher the cultural understanding that goes with what was taught. The CCC gives the Church’s current understanding of itself and its teaching.

Before I turn to the doctrines of the Church, though, I’ll ask some simple questions for you and others to ponder.

How was Abraham saved? How was Moses saved? How were all Israelites who observed the Covenant saved? The answer, of course, is through Jesus, whose grace flow from the cross backwards and forwards through time and eternity.

Did Paul cease to observe the Mosaic Law after his conversion? The answer to that is NO, he did not.

The Mosaic Law, GOD’S COVENANT with Israel is still valid…as scripture tells us God’s Call and Promise are IRREVOCABLE.

Now, as to what the Church says on the matter:

Israel’s Unbelief is for the benefit of Gentiles:
647 The glorious Messiah’s coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by “all Israel,” for “a hardening has come upon part of Israel” in their “unbelief” toward Jesus.569 St. Peter says to the Jews of Jerusalem after Pentecost: "Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old."570 St. Paul echoes him: "For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?"571 The “full inclusion” of the Jews in the Messiah’s salvation, in the wake of "the full number of the Gentiles,"572 will enable the People of God to achieve “the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,” in which "God may be all in all."573
The Mosaic Law is a Response to the Call of God:
839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”;328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329
One of those gifts to Israel was the Mosaic law, which is IRREVOCABLE.
 
The Church RESPECTS the Law
II. The Old Law
1961
God, our Creator and Redeemer, chose Israel for himself to be his people and revealed his Law to them, thus preparing for the coming of Christ. The Law of Moses expresses many truths naturally accessible to reason. These are stated and authenticated within the covenant of salvation.
1962
The Old Law is the first stage of revealed Law. Its moral prescriptions are summed up in the Ten Commandments. The precepts of the Decalogue lay the foundations for the vocation of man fashioned in the image of God; they prohibit what is contrary to the love of God and neighbor and prescribe what is essential to it. The Decalogue is a light offered to the conscience of every man to make God’s call and ways known to him and to protect him against evil:
God wrote on the tables of the Law what men did not read in their hearts.13
1963
According to Christian tradition, the Law is holy, spiritual, and good,14 yet still imperfect. Like a tutor15 it shows what must be done, but does not of itself give the strength, the grace of the Spirit, to fulfill it. Because of sin, which it cannot remove, it remains a law of bondage. According to St. Paul, its special function is to denounce and disclose sin, which constitutes a “law of concupiscence” in the human heart.16 However, the Law remains the first stage on the way to the kingdom. It prepares and disposes the chosen people and each Christian for conversion and faith in the Savior God. It provides a teaching which endures for ever, like the Word of God.
1964
The Old Law is a preparation for the Gospel. "The Law is a pedagogy and a prophecy of things to come."17 It prophesies and presages the work of liberation from sin which will be fulfilled in Christ: it provides the New Testament with images, “types,” and symbols for expressing the life according to the Spirit. Finally, the Law is completed by the teaching of the sapiential books and the prophets which set its course toward the New Covenant and the Kingdom of heaven.
There were . . . under the regimen of the Old Covenant, people who possessed the charity and grace of the Holy Spirit and longed above all for the spiritual and eternal promises by which they were associated with the New Law. Conversely, there exist carnal men under the New Covenant, still distanced from the perfection of the New Law: the fear of punishment and certain temporal promises have been necessary, even under the New Covenant, to incite them to virtuous works. In any case, even though the Old Law prescribed charity, it did not give the Holy Spirit, through whom "God’s charity has been poured into our hearts."18
Notice the Church speaks about the Mosaic law in terms of IS not WAS.

What does the Church say about Israel?
63
Israel is the priestly people of God, “called by the name of the LORD,” and "the first to hear the word of God,"21 the people of “elder brethren” in the faith of Abraham.
Note, the Church says Israel IS, not was, the priestly people of God.

My point is NOT that Christians should follow the Mosaic Law, that would be utter nonsense, however, the Mosaic Law is NOT REVOKED and still applies to the Jews…who are still God’s chosen.
 
*Almighty and eternal God, who dost also not exclude from thy mercy the Jews: hear our prayers, which we offer for the blindness of that people; that acknowledging the light of thy Truth, which is Christ, they may be delivered from their darkness. Through the same Lord Jesus Christ, who lives and reigns with thee in the unity of the Holy Spirit, God, for ever and ever. *

:highprayer: Amen! :highprayer:
Amen :signofcross:
 
Yerusalem,

I have a lot to say in response to your post, but don’t have the time right now. I’ll try to respond tonight.
 
Do Jews need to covert to be saved?
Jesus said - no one comes to the Father except through Him.

I think that’s pretty clear cut. Does it really need to be more complicated than that? 🤷

~Liza
 
EDIT:
Ah, I see that Pax et Caritas has already brought up the Council of Florence. It will be interesting to see how his opponents attempt to answer it, then.
 
Of course. However, like anyone else with supernatural faith in God, desiring to do all He has commanded and believe all He has revealed who is in in “good faith”–that is, not culpable for not knowing the Messiah explicitly–they can be united to the Church before death by their desire and implicit faith in Him and therefore come to salvation.

But who does this? I cannot judge, but I, as a Catholic, for many years did not do this–I was on the broad path to destruction. It was Catholics sharing their faith by word and by example who inspired me to earnestly seek the will of God. That’s why we are obligated (and therefore also have the right to) share the faith with all people, Jew and Gentile–even those who are Catholics already 🙂
 
Again, why would you bother arguing whether or not the Jews are God’s “Chosen People” (whatever that means to you) if we are at least in agreeance that without Faith in Jesus Christ (rejected by the Jewish people) and membership in the Church of Christ, barring cases of invincible ignorance, there is not even the possibility of salvation?
 
Because by the nature of being God’s chosen people, the Jews are still somehow in a covenant with God, since God doesn’t go back on his word. The nature of this is hidden from us. This is in the CCC, I’m trying to find it. I know that I read it somewhere in there…
 
God warned us to beware of false gospels. Here we are --living in such a time.
 
Yerusalem,

Unfortunately, I am too busy to respond as I would like right now. However, I am going to give you a link to something I wrote years ago that explains the Jews as God’s chosen people and how that applies today during the new Covenant. This was originally written to a Protestant so it has a ton of Bible verses. Basically, I just go through and show what the Bible itself says on the subject, which, for some reason, most people aren’t aware of… but it is very clear in the Bible itself.

thecatholicfaith.blogspot.com/2006/02/are-jews-gods-chosen-people.html

I’d be interested in your response to the article. I should be able to continue the discussion later this week.
 
Again, why would you bother arguing whether or not the Jews are God’s “Chosen People” (whatever that means to you) if we are at least in agreeance that without Faith in Jesus Christ (rejected by the Jewish people) and membership in the Church of Christ, barring cases of invincible ignorance, there is not even the possibility of salvation?
I’d like to recommend you read what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says on this very issue.
Because by the nature of being God’s chosen people, the Jews are still somehow in a covenant with God, since God doesn’t go back on his word. The nature of this is hidden from us. This is in the CCC, I’m trying to find it. I know that I read it somewhere in there…
👍
God warned us to beware of false gospels. Here we are --living in such a time.
So avoid false teachers and stick with what the Church tells us…READ THE CCC
 
Pax,

It’s really quite simple, either the Church and what it teaches in the CCC is correct, or incorrect. Which is it?

Show me I’m wrong with CURRENT documents, not documents written in an age neither of us fully understand.
 
I’d like to recommend you read what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says on this very issue.

👍

Quote:
God warned us to beware of false gospels. Here we are --living in such a time.

So avoid false teachers and stick with what the Church tells us…READ THE CCC

I am sticking with what the Chruch has always taught. Our Lord Christ fulfilled the old covenant and brought it to a close. In its place is the New Covenant. I do not follow the interpretation of false prophets who manipulate scripture and even our own Church teaching to mean something other than the Truth and are leading many down a false road.
 
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