Do Jews view this as anti-semitic?

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I was going back and forth with a catholic on another thread about some remarks a pope (and other christians) had said about Jewish people. Some catholics don’t view the following statement as anti-semitic.

The Jewish people fell from the heights because of their faithlessness and condemned their Redeemer to a shameful death. Their godlessness has assumed such forms that, for the salvation of our own people, it becomes necessary to prevent their disease. Besides usury, through which Jews everywhere have sucked dry the property of impoverished Christians, they are accomplices of thieves and robbers; and the most damaging aspect of the matter is that they allure the unsuspecting through magical incantations, superstition, and witchcraft to the Synagogue of Satan and boast of being able to predict the future. We have carefully investigated how this revolting sect abuses the name of Christ and how harmful they are to those whose life is threatened by their deceit. On account of these and other serious matters, and because of the gravity of their crimes which increase day to day more and more, We order that, within 90 days, all Jews in our entire earthly realm of justice – in all towns, districts, and places – must depart these regions. ~ Pope St. Pius V (From his Bull, “The Jewish Race,” Feb.26, 1569; PAC, p.648).

Perhaps I am being too rash to label this, and all catholics who support such statements, as anti-semitic. Am I right, or is the liberal in me just making too bigs a deal of this?

All faith backrounds are invited to contibute to the discussion.
 
VARC said:
I was going back and forth with a catholic on another thread about some remarks a pope (and other christians) had said about Jewish people. Some catholics don’t view the following statement as anti-semitic.

The Jewish people fell from the heights because of their faithlessness and condemned their Redeemer to a shameful death. Their godlessness has assumed such forms that, for the salvation of our own people, it becomes necessary to prevent their disease. Besides usury, through which Jews everywhere have sucked dry the property of impoverished Christians, they are accomplices of thieves and robbers; and the most damaging aspect of the matter is that they allure the unsuspecting through magical incantations, superstition, and witchcraft to the Synagogue of Satan and boast of being able to predict the future. We have carefully investigated how this revolting sect abuses the name of Christ and how harmful they are to those whose life is threatened by their deceit. On account of these and other serious matters, and because of the gravity of their crimes which increase day to day more and more, We order that, within 90 days, all Jews in our entire earthly realm of justice – in all towns, districts, and places – must depart these regions. ~ Pope St. Pius V (From his Bull, “The Jewish Race,” Feb.26, 1569; PAC, p.648).

Perhaps I am being too rash to label this, and all catholics who support such statements, as anti-semitic. Am I right, or is the liberal in me just making too bigs a deal of this?

All faith backrounds are invited to contibute to the discussion.
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You noticed that other thread was yanked. I had contributed a great deal with you, VARC to that thread and it up and disappeared. hmmmmm.
 
I think the Pope could have been a little more charitable in his remarks and actions. LOL
 
GKC said:
There goes Belloc.

GKC
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Yep, I was talking about how King John and Innocent III had it out over the ABC and the interdict, etc. I don’t think that was taken well. LOL…Varc and I must’ve touched a nerve because…poof…gone…

Yep, no more Belloc, no more discussion of anti-semitism. This thread will probably evaporate soon lol:eek:
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
Yep, I was talking about how King John and Innocent III had it out over the ABC and the interdict, etc. I don’t think that was taken well. LOL…Varc and I must’ve touched a nerve because…poof…gone…

Yep, no more Belloc, no more discussion of anti-semitism. This thread will probably evaporate soon lol:eek:
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As I noted there (I’ll do it again, since it’s gone), John and Innocent, in the end, united against Stephen, the barons and Magna Carta.

History is complicated.

GKC
 
GKC said:
As I noted there (I’ll do it again, since it’s gone), John and Innocent, in the end, united against Stephen, the barons and Magna Carta.

History is complicated.

GKC
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Yeah, I know all about it. Amazing how John was willing to sell out England. Talk about a hated king!! Henry II, Richard I and John I were all a piece of work IMO.😃
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
Yeah, I know all about it. Amazing how John was willing to sell out England. Talk about a hated king!! Henry II, Richard I and John I were all a piece of work IMO.😃
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I’m not that down on Henry II. The Constitutions of Clarendon were his doing.

GKC
 
Don’t be so quick to write it off.

There’s bad blood on both sides. Do you really think Jews were so universally reviled for absolutely no reason whatsoever? Some of the Christian prejudices were based on a misunderstanding of economics, certainly - “those jews are rich because they exploit the poor!” - but there’s more to it than that. The Talmud has some pretty damned bigoted things to say (though, interestingly enough, it does not deny that Christ healed people and cast out demons) about us and about the Son of God. Jews would mock Christian ceremonies in the streets, a phenomenon recorded again and again throughout the middle ages. Not to mention the writings of the saints, who have consistently claimed that Jews are “bad” since the very beginning.

I’m not saying they’re right.

I’m just saying that criticism of the Jews shouldn’t earn a ban-hammer/thread-lock. And honestly, while I don’t believe that Jews incurred collective guilt, nor do I believe that most jews are bad or are going to hell, I do think that there’s a pretty significant strain of anti-christianity (and particularly anti-catholicism) within the Jewish people that continues to this day. Much like there’s a pretty significant strain of anti-semitism within Catholicism. I’ve seen many of the actions taken by states and men for the past couple of centuries which have damaged our religion and led to the loss of countless souls, and I can’t help but notice how disproportionate a role Jews have often played in these movements relative to their numbers. Not all Jews are bad, but a small minority are, and for this small minority a good amount of their badness comes from the Jewish religion.

Anti-semitism is a hatred of Jews for being Jews, because they have Jewish blood. It’s bigoted, irrational, and sinful. Believing that certain strains of Jewish thought are anti-christian, and that certain Jews have acted against Christians due, in part, to their religion, is not anti-semitism, just an interpretation of historical events.

My .02
 
bpbasilphx said:
What did this Pope say the OT prophets didn’t?
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These comments were made in the New Covenant, which of course was prophesied to the houses of Israel and Judah(Jeremiah 31). The God of Israel is love, and St.Paul says love keeps no record of wrongs.
**1 Corinthians 13:4-8
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails.**

The Gospel is to go to the Jew first. How can statements like these be a seed for the next generation of Jews? How can another water these harsh words?

The prophets always warned Israel to come back to their God. The Church should do the same, in love, forgiveness, and patience.
 
John92 said:
Don’t be so quick to write it off.

There’s bad blood on both sides. Do you really think Jews were so universally reviled for absolutely no reason whatsoever? Some of the Christian prejudices were based on a misunderstanding of economics, certainly - “those jews are rich because they exploit the poor!” - but there’s more to it than that. The Talmud has some pretty damned bigoted things to say (though, interestingly enough, it does not deny that Christ healed people and cast out demons) about us and about the Son of God. Jews would mock Christian ceremonies in the streets, a phenomenon recorded again and again throughout the middle ages. Not to mention the writings of the saints, who have consistently claimed that Jews are “bad” since the very beginning.

I’m not saying they’re right.

I’m just saying that criticism of the Jews shouldn’t earn a ban-hammer/thread-lock. And honestly, while I don’t believe that Jews incurred collective guilt, nor do I believe that most jews are bad or are going to hell, I do think that there’s a pretty significant strain of anti-christianity (and particularly anti-catholicism) within the Jewish people that continues to this day. Much like there’s a pretty significant strain of anti-semitism within Catholicism. I’ve seen many of the actions taken by states and men for the past couple of centuries which have damaged our religion and led to the loss of countless souls, and I can’t help but notice how disproportionate a role Jews have often played in these movements relative to their numbers. Not all Jews are bad, but a small minority are, and for this small minority a good amount of their badness comes from the Jewish religion.

Anti-semitism is a hatred of Jews for being Jews, because they have Jewish blood. It’s bigoted, irrational, and sinful. Believing that certain strains of Jewish thought are anti-christian, and that certain Jews have acted against Christians due, in part, to their religion, is not anti-semitism, just an interpretation of historical events.

My .02
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Well actually what the Talmud teaches is that all people are equal and that it is easier for the gentile to get into the world to come then for the Jew. What anti-Semites over the ages have made up is the sort of nonsense you wrote in your post concerning the Talmud. Jews are against being persecuted by anti-Semites.

From a religious point of view we are not anti-Catholic any more than we are anti-Hindu or any other religion outside of Judaism. There is no special role or place for “Catholics” of “Christians” in Judaism or for Hindu’s for that matter.

I noted your belief that “all Jews are rich” which might have led to some “misunderstandings” against Jews and your belief that the Jews are invariably involved in anti-Catholic and anti-Christian activities and that the Jews who act this way do so because of the “badness of the Jewish religion” and that if Jews are persecuted its their own fault and they have it coming to them. Now having stated those attitudes about Jews it is indeed a relief to discover that you are not an anti-Semite:rolleyes:
 
VARC said:
I was going back and forth with a catholic on another thread about some remarks a pope (and other christians) had said about Jewish people. Some catholics don’t view the following statement as anti-semitic.

The Jewish people fell from the heights because of their faithlessness and condemned their Redeemer to a shameful death. Their godlessness has assumed such forms that, for the salvation of our own people, it becomes necessary to prevent their disease. Besides usury, through which Jews everywhere have sucked dry the property of impoverished Christians, they are accomplices of thieves and robbers; and the most damaging aspect of the matter is that they allure the unsuspecting through magical incantations, superstition, and witchcraft to the Synagogue of Satan and boast of being able to predict the future. We have carefully investigated how this revolting sect abuses the name of Christ and how harmful they are to those whose life is threatened by their deceit. On account of these and other serious matters, and because of the gravity of their crimes which increase day to day more and more, We order that, within 90 days, all Jews in our entire earthly realm of justice – in all towns, districts, and places – must depart these regions. ~ Pope St. Pius V (From his Bull, “The Jewish Race,” Feb.26, 1569; PAC, p.648).

Perhaps I am being too rash to label this, and all catholics who support such statements, as anti-semitic. Am I right, or is the liberal in me just making too bigs a deal of this?

All faith backrounds are invited to contibute to the discussion.
Click to expand...
I don’t know enough about the history to determine if one of these claims has any basis in truth. (We know that many Christians in the US are quilty of this current economic crisis because of their lending practices - and others because of their greed and their willingness to participate, knowing they couldn’t afford to pay the loans back.) But witchcraft and the rest? :rolleyes:

I would love to know what politics brought about this action by the Pope.

Didn’t PJPII apologize for, and call wrong, all prejudice against Jews by the CC? One claims in the quoted passage might have some basis in truth for some Jews, but it’s obviously wrong, and prejudiced, to kick out all Jews. Besides, maybe, like now, many of those Christians who were “robbed” by the lenders were greedy, willing participants just like the Christians today. (If the claim is true at all.)

I haven’t checked the source, and I’m taking if for granted that you’ve quoted correctly from a reliable source. 🙂
 
John92 said:
Don’t be so quick to write it off.

There’s bad blood on both sides. Do you really think Jews were so universally reviled for absolutely no reason whatsoever? Some of the Christian prejudices were based on a misunderstanding of economics, certainly - “those jews are rich because they exploit the poor!” - but there’s more to it than that. The Talmud has some pretty damned bigoted things to say (though, interestingly enough, it does not deny that Christ healed people and cast out demons) about us and about the Son of God. Jews would mock Christian ceremonies in the streets, a phenomenon recorded again and again throughout the middle ages. Not to mention the writings of the saints, who have consistently claimed that Jews are “bad” since the very beginning.

I’m not saying they’re right.

I’m just saying that criticism of the Jews shouldn’t earn a ban-hammer/thread-lock. And honestly, while I don’t believe that Jews incurred collective guilt, nor do I believe that most jews are bad or are going to hell, I do think that there’s a pretty significant strain of anti-christianity (and particularly anti-catholicism) within the Jewish people that continues to this day. Much like there’s a pretty significant strain of anti-semitism within Catholicism. I’ve seen many of the actions taken by states and men for the past couple of centuries which have damaged our religion and led to the loss of countless souls, and I can’t help but notice how disproportionate a role Jews have often played in these movements relative to their numbers. Not all Jews are bad, but a small minority are, and for this small minority a good amount of their badness comes from the Jewish religion.

Anti-semitism is a hatred of Jews for being Jews, because they have Jewish blood. It’s bigoted, irrational, and sinful. Believing that certain strains of Jewish thought are anti-christian, and that certain Jews have acted against Christians due, in part, to their religion, is not anti-semitism, just an interpretation of historical events.

My .02
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👍 Excellent post. Articulate.
 
chosen_people said:
Well actually what the Talmud teaches is that all people are equal and that it is easier for the gentile to get into the world to come then for the Jew. What anti-Semites over the ages have made up is the sort of nonsense you wrote in your post concerning the Talmud. Jews are against being persecuted by anti-Semites.

From a religious point of view we are not anti-Catholic any more than we are anti-Hindu or any other religion outside of Judaism. There is no special role or place for “Catholics” of “Christians” in Judaism or for Hindu’s for that matter.

I noted your belief that “all Jews are rich” which might have led to some “misunderstandings” against Jews and your belief that the Jews are invariably involved in anti-Catholic and anti-Christian activities and that the Jews who act this way do so because of the “badness of the Jewish religion” and that if Jews are persecuted its their own fault and they have it coming to them. Now having stated those attitudes about Jews it is indeed a relief to discover that you are not an anti-Semite:rolleyes:
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I think that you didn’t read his post carefully.
 
chosen_people said:
Well actually what the Talmud teaches is that all people are equal and that it is easier for the gentile to get into the world to come then for the Jew. What anti-Semites over the ages have made up is the sort of nonsense you wrote in your post concerning the Talmud. Jews are against being persecuted by anti-Semites.

From a religious point of view we are not anti-Catholic any more than we are anti-Hindu or any other religion outside of Judaism. There is no special role or place for “Catholics” of “Christians” in Judaism or for Hindu’s for that matter.

I noted your belief that “all Jews are rich” which might have led to some “misunderstandings” against Jews and your belief that the Jews are invariably involved in anti-Catholic and anti-Christian activities and that the Jews who act this way do so because of the “badness of the Jewish religion” and that if Jews are persecuted its their own fault and they have it coming to them. Now having stated those attitudes about Jews it is indeed a relief to discover that you are not an anti-Semite:rolleyes:
Click to expand...
Don’t try to tell me the Talmud doesn’t say what it says. Do you really want me to get the quotes for you? Most Jews do not buy that stuff anymore, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t a certain anti-christian element to some jews. You can state that Jews don’t care about what Christians do but 2,000 years of interaction with us suggests otherwise.

I don’t think that all jews are rich, you misunderstood me 😛 They were quite a bit more wealthy than your average European during the middle ages, high literacy etc. They were artisans, merchants, and bankers; there just weren’t many Jewish peasants.

I don’t think that jews should be persecuted or have “deserved” anything. Just pointing out that Jews aren’t perfect, that there are some negative things in Judaism. It bothers me how every other religion in the world accepts a certain amount of criticism and will admit to wrong-doing, except Judaism.
 
John92 said:
Don’t try to tell me the Talmud doesn’t say what it says. Do you really want me to get the quotes for you?
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I expect that everybody is as capable of finding the ‘StormFront/JewWatch/JewishTribalReview’ Talmud online as you’ve been.
 
Kaninchen said:
I expect that everybody is as capable of finding the ‘StormFront/JewWatch/JewishTribalReview’ Talmud online as you’ve been.
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Yadda yadda yadda.

To answer OP’s question: Yes Jews will view it as anti-semitic. Any criticism of the Jews or Judaism is anti-semitic to them.
 
John92 said:
Yadda yadda yadda.

To answer OP’s question: Yes Jews will view it as anti-semitic. Any criticism of the Jews or Judaism is anti-semitic to them.
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We’re just so very, very naughty.
 
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