Do Karaite Jews believe in a Messiah?

[meltzerboy]

I just asked the same question on an Orthodox Jewish Forum. But since there are a handful of Jews on CAF, as well as some non-Jewish scholars, I thought I’d ask here as well. For those unfamiliar with Karaite Judaism, believers of this form of Judaism practice only the Written Law of the Torah and do not believe the Oral Law to be of divine origin. Since there are but a few intimations of the Messiah in the Prophets of the Hebrew Bible (according to Torah Judaism) and hardly anything at all suggesting a Messiah in the Torah, would that be enough for Karaite Jews to believe in the coming of a Messiah, which is in keeping with one of the 13 principles of faith formulated by Maimonides?

 

[TarkanAttila]

I just asked the same question on an Orthodox Jewish Forum. But since there are a handful of Jews on CAF, as well as some non-Jewish scholars, I thought I’d ask here as well. For those unfamiliar with Karaite Judaism, believers of this form of Judaism practice only the Written Law of the Torah and do not believe the Oral Law to be of divine origin. Since there are but a few intimations of the Messiah in the Prophets of the Hebrew Bible (according to Torah Judaism) and hardly anything at all suggesting a Messiah in the Torah, would that be enough for Karaite Jews to believe in the coming of a Messiah, which is in keeping with one of the 13 principles of faith formulated by Maimonides?

So… Karaites are like Protestants, then? Sola Scriptura?

They also sound a bit like Saducees, too - they also only followed the Books of Moses, no?

I’m afraid I’ve got nothing, otherwise.

 

[meltzerboy]

So… Karaites are like Protestants, then? Sola Scriptura?

They also sound a bit like Saducees, too - they also only followed the Books of Moses, no?

I’m afraid I’ve got nothing, otherwise.

Yes, Karaites are similar to Protestants in being Sola Scriptura. They don’t put mezuzahs (small Torah scrolls) on their doorposts and don’t even light Sabbath candles, because neither of these customs is explicitly written in the Torah. Also, I understand they do not turn lights on before the Sabbath but instead remain without lights. I agree, somewhat like the Sadducees, not at all in the Pharisaic tradition of Judaism.

 

[Kaninchen]

They accept the whole of the Tanakh so they may well have a view about Messiah.

The Journal of Jewish Studies has an article ‘The Doctrine of the Two Messiahs Among the Karaites’, so it would appear that they do.

 

[meltzerboy]

They accept the whole of the Tanakh so they may well have a view about Messiah.

The Journal of Jewish Studies has an article ‘The Doctrine of the Two Messiahs Among the Karaites’, so it would appear that they do.

Thanks for the link, Kaninchen. I know the Nazarene Jews also believe in the two Messiahs, and they believe Jesus was the first Messiah–ben Joseph–but not the Messiah ben David. Further, they do not believe in the divinity of Jesus. So there may be some connection with Karaism. I’ll have to read the article.

 

[Kaninchen]

Thanks for the link, Kaninchen. I know the Nazarene Jews also believe in the two Messiahs, and they believe Jesus was the first Messiah–ben Joseph–but not the Messiah ben David. Further, they do not believe in the divinity of Jesus. So there may be some connection with Karaism. I’ll have to read the article.

I don’t think Karaites believe that Jesus was Messiah at all.

 

[aspirant]

Yes, Karaites are similar to Protestants in being Sola Scriptura. They don’t put mezuzahs (small Torah scrolls) on their doorposts and don’t even light Sabbath candles, because neither of these customs is explicitly written in the Torah.

That’s interesting, because placing a mezuzah on the doorpost appears, at least to me, to have a scriptural basis:
Deuteronomy:

Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise. You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates…

You shall therefore lay up these words of mine in your heart and in your soul, and you shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. You shall teach them to your children, talking of them when you are sitting in your house, and when you are walking by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise. You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates, that your days and the days of your children may be multiplied in the land that the Lord swore to your fathers to give them, as long as the heavens are above the earth.

I mean, sure, writing on a doorpost doesn’t necessarily take the form of a mezuzah. And I could understand someone interpreting the writing on a doorpost figuratively, so not requiring a physical writing. But it does seem to me that the practice of using a mezuzah is understandably based on this scripture and would be at least one acceptable application of this scripture, even if a person favored a figurative reading.

 

[meltzerboy]

That’s interesting, because placing a mezuzah on the doorpost appears, at least to me, to have a scriptural basis:

I mean, sure, writing on a doorpost doesn’t necessarily take the form of a mezuzah. And I could understand someone interpreting the writing on a doorpost figuratively, so not requiring a physical writing. But it does seem to me that the practice of using a mezuzah is understandably based on this scripture and would be at least one acceptable application of this scripture, even if a person favored a figurative reading.

The Karaites do not use tefillin or mezuzahs because they interpret this whole passage as metaphorical, being that words cannot literally be bound to one’s heart and head, nor to one’s doorpost. This is interesting since, although they are Sola Scriptura, they do not always have a literal interpretation of scripture. Perhaps some of their non-literal interpretations are also in reaction toward those of the rabbis, who follow the tradition of the Pharisees.

 

[aspirant]

Perhaps some of their non-literal interpretations are also in reaction toward those of the rabbis, who follow the tradition of the Pharisees.

Sounds likely.

 

[Karaite_Kohen]

I just asked the same question on an Orthodox Jewish Forum. But since there are a handful of Jews on CAF, as well as some non-Jewish scholars, I thought I’d ask here as well. For those unfamiliar with Karaite Judaism, believers of this form of Judaism practice only the Written Law of the Torah and do not believe the Oral Law to be of divine origin. Since there are but a few intimations of the Messiah in the Prophets of the Hebrew Bible (according to Torah Judaism) and hardly anything at all suggesting a Messiah in the Torah, would that be enough for Karaite Jews to believe in the coming of a Messiah, which is in keeping with one of the 13 principles of faith formulated by Maimonides?

I am one of three of the founding board members of Karaite Jewish University. Not addressing the issue of the mischaracterization of the essence of Karaite Judaism, the British Scholar, Professor Naptalie Weider wrote a peer review published article entitled “The Doctrine of the Two Messiahs Among the Karaites.”

There is a severely mistaken belief that Karaite Jews believe only in the five books not the entirety of the Hebrew Scriptures, also known as the TaNaKh. In fact Karaite Jews do not only believe in the TaNaKh, but a fundamental precept of Karaite Judaism is in the belief of rational interpretation based upon the TaNaKh and Sevel Hayerusha, i.e. inherited tradition. One can confirm this by accessing an article in the Jerusalem Post entitled “Laying Down the (Oral) Law” in which the now Chief Rabbi, Moshe Yosef Firrouz, discussed the three foundational elements.

 

[aspirant]

I am one of three of the founding board members of Karaite Jewish University.

Welcome! I appreciate your stopping by to address meltzerboy’s question, and I’m sure others do, too.

 

[hazcompat]

Peace

 

[meltzerboy]

I am one of three of the founding board members of Karaite Jewish University. Not addressing the issue of the mischaracterization of the essence of Karaite Judaism, the British Scholar, Professor Naptalie Weider wrote a peer review published article entitled “The Doctrine of the Two Messiahs Among the Karaites.”

There is a severely mistaken belief that Karaite Jews believe only in the five books not the entirety of the Hebrew Scriptures, also known as the TaNaKh. In fact Karaite Jews do not only believe in the TaNaKh, but a fundamental precept of Karaite Judaism is in the belief of rational interpretation based upon the TaNaKh and Sevel Hayerusha, i.e. inherited tradition. One can confirm this by accessing an article in the Jerusalem Post entitled “Laying Down the (Oral) Law” in which the now Chief Rabbi, Moshe Yosef Firrouz, discussed the three foundational elements.

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut and welcome to CAF. Kaninchen was also kind enough to send me a link to the article you mention about the doctrine of the two Messiahs. I likewise appreciate the article from the Jerusalem Post about the Oral Law, which I will look into it. Yes, I do realize the whole Tanakh is included in the belief system of Karaite Judaism. My understanding is that the process of analogy is widely used in interpreting the Law, even though the commandment may not be explicitly stated. To take one example, would that mean that female homosexuality is inferred to be prohibited based on the prohibition against male homosexuality? With regard to “Sevel Hayerusha,” do the customs practiced therefore result in certain differences among Karaite beliefs based on the country in which believers live?

 

[hazcompat]

Enquire and you will learn that in the days of Aaron the priest there was an alliance by marriage between Aaron and the tribe of Juda, to which the prophet David bore witness. Now I have enquired much about Jesus, his tribe and genealogy, and find that his mother Mary is connected with both tribes. And, she is also innocent of sin, through another great mystery. For this reason I desire that you make enquiries, that you may know with certainty that what I say is true, and may recognize that I speak honestly to you». But the priests thought that by this notion of theirs they would bring his counsel to nought. And they began to enquire about the family of Jesus, and found that Mary united the two tribes, and therefore they could not evade this point on account of the oath. So they began to dispute about the pedigree of Jesus. … For this reason we sent for thee, that we may know the truth, and may not remain in doubt; then thou wilt put an end to the dispute about the matter before us. And here is the Law before us, and we declare before God most high, the Invisible One, that no harm nor blame shall come to thee from us; but we shall thank thee greatly because thou hast not hidden the truth from us»… «O Mary, in truth we desire to hear from thee whose son Jesus is. For his father Joseph is dead, and our hearts doubt with regard to him whether he was his father; and therefore we ask of thee the true account of the matter, for by giving it thou wilt stop the whole dispute about thy maternity. … But when you hear it, you will not believe it, and you will not accept what I shall tell you. Even Joseph who, as you say, is dead, doubted of my conception, as you do, and asked me, saying : «Who has been with you?» So I swore that no man had ever touched me; yet he did not believe me until the angel of God appeared to him and satisfied his mind… Then Mary began to think in perplexity and fear, bending her face towards the ground and weeping. At last she said : «Now I know that I brought forth Jesus as you say, and this I confess. But as for your suggestion that a man ravished me, indeed the seal of my virginity bears witness to me that I tell you the truth». When they heard this, they were troubled and said : «This is a statement that we will not accept, for it is a tale of wonder. How can we write the name of thy son in the genealogy, without the name of his father and of the tribe to which he belongs, as the current custom is?» When Mary heard the priests say this, she said to them : «I told you from the beginning that I know nothing of what you have said; therefore do what you wish, for I will not tell you what has not happened to me». So when she said this, not one of them contradicted her; but they were moved by divine providence, and sent and summoned trustworthy women from among their midwives, and begged them strenuously and eagerly to clear up the matter with regard to her, whether she was a virgin, as she said, before God and the Law. So the midwives examined her, and said to the priests : «She speaks the truth; she is a virgin inviolate, as she said; and her virginity was not lost when she brought forth Jesus, for as you all know, he was born of her.» Then they inquired among her neighbours and acquaintances, to see whether they might find someone to deny the birth. But they found no one, for everyone confirmed the fact of her bringing forth a son, and the time at which she so wonderfully became a mother, by a mystery which was understood by none. Thus the priests found nothing which they could allege against her, or by which they could prove her false, but only the manifest truth. Then after that they sent for her, moved by necessity, in fear, and said to her : «We have inquired, and have found nothing contrary to thy words, nor to what thou didst relate to us. But it is not right that we should write down what thou sayest. Now therefore we adjure thee by God Almighty to make known to us who is the father of Jesus, by whom thou didst bring him forth, that we may write his name in the register 14 and in the genealogy». And Mary was filled with the Holy Ghost, and said : «I will say nothing with guile or falsehood, and God, by whose name you have adjured me, is my witness». And she began to tell them thus : «The Angel Gabriel came to me, and announced the good tidings to me». So she explained to them all that had happened to her. Then they were confounded and marvelled greatly, and prayed God to forgive them the unjust words which they had used against her. And one of them said : «Indeed this is the Messiah, of whom the Prophets prophesied that he would come of the house of David, and from Bethlehem of the tribe of Juda.» Then they called Jesus, and tendered the oath to him as priest, and wrote his name in the genealogy, with the day and the month and the year, describing him as «Jesus, the son of God, and the son of Mary the virgin, whom she bore while still a virgin. He is indeed a priest, and is worthy of the office»…

tertullian.org/fathers/severus_hermopolis_hist_alex_patr_01_part1.htm

Peace

 

[504Katrin]

So I, too, learned more about the Karaite denomination. I came across an orthodox view that says that they won’t accept them. I’m a bit troubled by my own attitude, and since people seem to think differently I believe that I must be wrong?.

How comes that a lot of Jews around the world seem to visit their own Synagogues only? What I’m trying to say is that some orthodox people refuse to go to a moderate or Karaite Synagogue and rather stay at home altogether, and some refuse to go to an orthodox Synagogue and chose to rather stay at home altogether. Everyone, no matter their level of observance meets at the Temple Mount though. Noone there cares either if someone is a moderate, karaite, or orthodox Jew there, btu everyone prays to our G-d. Why can’t this be true then for our Synagogues also? I know a Jew who doesn’t go to the Synagogue nowhere and who rather stays at home alone altogether as no Synagogue or community seems to be “good enough” for him, and that even though we’re all brothers and sisters. I cannot understand this.

Why can’t we all meet at one Synagogue, the moderate fellas leave before Mussaf and can go over to the dining room for Kiddush, or downstairs and pray some more or talk or whatever, and wait for us over there. The Karaite denomination stays with us till after Mussaf, and during service they insert their prayer for the second Mossiach, i.e the High Priest, that others simply skip. Since there’re people that seem to be in favour of the division of a family that is one, I must go wrong somewhere, but I don’t see where. My friend is a moderate Jew, and he doesn’t totally keep Shabbes in accordance with the law, and some prayers he doesn’t pray, but we’re getting along so incredibly well and I went with them to their moderate community recently. Why can’t we all be one and behave like brothers and sisters? Where’s the problem? And the most important and mysterious question: Where does this thought of division even come from, it must have originated somewhere and the source of it couldn’t have been brotherly love, or am I wrong?

 

[Kaninchen]

So I, too, learned more about the Karaite denomination. I came across an orthodox view that says that they won’t accept them. I’m a bit troubled by my own attitude, and since people seem to think differently I believe that I must be wrong?.

How comes that a lot of Jews around the world seem to visit their own Synagogues only? What I’m trying to say is that some orthodox people refuse to go to a moderate or Karaite Synagogue and rather stay at home altogether, and some refuse to go to an orthodox Synagogue and chose to rather stay at home altogether. Everyone, no matter their level of observance meets at the Temple Mount though. Noone there cares either if someone is a moderate, karaite, or orthodox Jew there, btu everyone prays to our G-d. Why can’t this be true then for our Synagogues also? I know a Jew who doesn’t go to the Synagogue nowhere and who rather stays at home alone altogether as no Synagogue or community seems to be “good enough” for him, and that even though we’re all brothers and sisters. I cannot understand this.

Why can’t we all meet at one Synagogue, the moderate fellas leave before Mussaf and can go over to the dining room for Kiddush, or downstairs and pray some more or talk or whatever, and wait for us over there. The Karaite denomination stays with us till after Mussaf, and during service they insert their prayer for the second Mossiach, i.e the High Priest, that others simply skip. Since there’re people that seem to be in favour of the division of a family that is one, I must go wrong somewhere, but I don’t see where. My friend is a moderate Jew, and he doesn’t totally keep Shabbes in accordance with the law, and some prayers he doesn’t pray, but we’re getting along so incredibly well and I went with them to their moderate community recently. Why can’t we all be one and behave like brothers and sisters? Where’s the problem? And the most important and mysterious question: Where does this thought of division even come from, it must have originated somewhere and the source of it couldn’t have been brotherly love, or am I wrong?

Hm

Well, we’ve been at the business of rowing with one another about God (and with God about God) for quite a long time now, Katrin, and we’re really rather good at it by now.

The disputation process is inbuilt - Judaism isn’t really a very ‘theological’ or ‘philosophical’ religion, it’s not so much what we ‘believe’ that we row about but what we ‘do’ that we row about. In Judaism ‘what’s the right thing to do?’ isn’t derived from from fine-tuning of conjectures on the ‘nature of God’ or ‘natural law’ (where not getting the belief interpretation right may endanger ‘salvation’) but from Torah/Prophets/Writings and mountains of legal argument/tradition and so on where not getting the interpretation right means rephrasing the argument or applying to another ‘court’.

Meanwhile, three millennia of wrangling and yet, somehow, we’re still here.

 

[meltzerboy]

So I, too, learned more about the Karaite denomination. I came across an orthodox view that says that they won’t accept them. I’m a bit troubled by my own attitude, and since people seem to think differently I believe that I must be wrong?.

How comes that a lot of Jews around the world seem to visit their own Synagogues only? What I’m trying to say is that some orthodox people refuse to go to a moderate or Karaite Synagogue and rather stay at home altogether, and some refuse to go to an orthodox Synagogue and chose to rather stay at home altogether. Everyone, no matter their level of observance meets at the Temple Mount though. Noone there cares either if someone is a moderate, karaite, or orthodox Jew there, btu everyone prays to our G-d. Why can’t this be true then for our Synagogues also? I know a Jew who doesn’t go to the Synagogue nowhere and who rather stays at home alone altogether as no Synagogue or community seems to be “good enough” for him, and that even though we’re all brothers and sisters. I cannot understand this.

Why can’t we all meet at one Synagogue, the moderate fellas leave before Mussaf and can go over to the dining room for Kiddush, or downstairs and pray some more or talk or whatever, and wait for us over there. The Karaite denomination stays with us till after Mussaf, and during service they insert their prayer for the second Mossiach, i.e the High Priest, that others simply skip. Since there’re people that seem to be in favour of the division of a family that is one, I must go wrong somewhere, but I don’t see where. My friend is a moderate Jew, and he doesn’t totally keep Shabbes in accordance with the law, and some prayers he doesn’t pray, but we’re getting along so incredibly well and I went with them to their moderate community recently. Why can’t we all be one and behave like brothers and sisters? Where’s the problem? And the most important and mysterious question: Where does this thought of division even come from, it must have originated somewhere and the source of it couldn’t have been brotherly love, or am I wrong?

OTOH, Katrin, I’ve always found Orthodox rabbis and ordinary Orthodox Jews, including Hasidim, accepting of me, a Reform Jew. They are, at times, more accusatory (probably too strong a word) of Reform, as well as Conservative, rabbis, but not of their congregations, since they feel the rabbis are trained well enough to know better. I suppose the same phenomenon exists in Christianity, among Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox, although, as Kaninchen points out, in the latter case it is more an issue of discrepancies of beliefs than practices.

 

[meltzerboy]

Hm

Well, we’ve been at the business of rowing with one another about God (and with God about God) for quite a long time now, Katrin, and we’re really rather good at it by now.

The disputation process is inbuilt - Judaism isn’t really a very ‘theological’ or ‘philosophical’ religion, it’s not so much what we ‘believe’ that we row about but what we ‘do’ that we row about. In Judaism ‘what’s the right thing to do?’ isn’t derived from from fine-tuning of conjectures on the ‘nature of God’ or ‘natural law’ (where not getting the belief interpretation right may endanger ‘salvation’) but from Torah/Prophets/Writings and mountains of legal argument/tradition and so on where not getting the interpretation right means rephrasing the argument or applying to another ‘court’.

Meanwhile, three millennia of wrangling and yet, somehow, we’re still here.

I agree that Judaism is a more orthoprax- than orthodox-focused religion. At the same time, it can be quite philosophical, although perhaps not so inclined to always link its divergent philosophical arguments to its day-to-day moral behaviors.

 

[504Katrin]

Hm

Well, we’ve been at the business of rowing with one another about God (and with God about God) for quite a long time now, Katrin, and we’re really rather good at it by now.

The disputation process is inbuilt - Judaism isn’t really a very ‘theological’ or ‘philosophical’ religion, it’s not so much what we ‘believe’ that we row about but what we ‘do’ that we row about. In Judaism ‘what’s the right thing to do?’ isn’t derived from from fine-tuning of conjectures on the ‘nature of God’ or ‘natural law’ (where not getting the belief interpretation right may endanger ‘salvation’) but from Torah/Prophets/Writings and mountains of legal argument/tradition and so on where not getting the interpretation right means rephrasing the argument or applying to another ‘court’.

Meanwhile, three millennia of wrangling and yet, somehow, we’re still here.

Thank you for your kind response. Yes, that’s very true.
I for once would love to hear debates about the Talmud for instance between our Rabbi and a Rabbi of the Karaite Denomination; that would make the time between lunch and Mincha even more exciting

Yes, we’re still here, which is the main thing

One day we will all pray in the Temple anyway when the Temple will be rebuilt. Guess I can (can’t) wait untill then

 

[504Katrin]

OTOH, Katrin, I’ve always found Orthodox rabbis and ordinary Orthodox Jews, including Hasidim, accepting of me, a Reform Jew. They are, at times, more accusatory (probably too strong a word) of Reform, as well as Conservative, rabbis, but not of their congregations, since they feel the rabbis are trained well enough to know better. I suppose the same phenomenon exists in Christianity, among Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox, although, as Kaninchen points out, in the latter case it is more an issue of discrepancies of beliefs than practices.

Thank you for sharing. Well my Rabbis’ reaction was different when I told him about my visit in the liberal community, and he also said that he didn’t know any of their Rabbinim. My friend told me lately that when he was out of town the Rabbi of their orthodox community didn’t let him in the synagogue on Friday night. Maybe it’s just slightly different here and only on some occations, and since I’m sensitive in regards to this topic I experience things the way I do.