Do LDS baptize converts immediately?

[Horton]

You said almost a matter of culture, implying that some few things are not. What would those be?

Jane - The sentence below is the important fact Brandon was trying to get across. That you would pick one word from a two paragraph answer seems to me you want to find fault with the statement, not try to understand it. He gave examples of what the differences are and those differences have to do with the practice of the churches, not the doctrine. He just said it far more eloquent than I. Where I live it would be difficult to find a Catholic church of a different rite so I don’t know a great deal about the various rites, or the Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, etc.

What you will not find are various Catholic particular churches in communion with one another that disagree whether Jesus is substantially present in the Eucharist, whether divorce and remarriage is not adultery, whether missing Mass on a Holy Day of Obligation is a sin, whether there are more than three persons in the Holy Trinity, etc.

 

[iepuras]

That sounds a lot like protestant churches. I’ve heard many of them say “it doesn’t matter which church you go to, as long as XYZ are agreed upon”. But part of that is they very specifically reject the need for centralized leadership (which Catholics do not).

Not really. I agree with Brandon. The line “it doesn’t matter which church you go to, as long as XYZ are agreed upon” is result of the relativism in our culture. In reality, there is not much that the various Protestant denominations agree upon. Even the Trinity (e.g. one-ness Pentacostals) isn’t agreed upon by all who profess to be Christian.

No it’s not really analogous to the various Protestant denominations. The vast majority of the differences between Catholic particular churches are the externals. It’s almost entirely a matter of culture. What color the priest’s vestments are, whether you should use leavened or unleavened bread for the Eucharist, whether the faithful should kneel on Sundays, whether the priests should be allowed to shave their beards, whether married men should be allowed to be ordained, which days particular saints are celebrated on the church’s calendar, whether the faithful should receive the two species of the Eucharist separately or at the same time (Eastern Catholics receive by intinction where the consecrated host is dunked into the chalice and the faithful receive both via a liturgical spoon); these are all matters of culture and custom, not doctrine.

What you will not find are various Catholic particular churches in communion with one another that disagree whether Jesus is substantially present in the Eucharist, whether divorce and remarriage is not adultery, whether missing Mass on a Holy Day of Obligation is a sin, whether there are more than three persons in the Holy Trinity, etc.

Exactly. The differences are primarily cultural and historical. There are differences in theology but the differences stem from different ways of explaining or understanding the same basic dogmas. In general, Roman Catholics have a tendency to want to explain how everything works, including the mysteries of God. Byzantines, not so much. They tend to leave the mystery in things rather than try to explain everything to the last detail.

For example, Byzantine Catholics don’t use the term “transubstantiation” when describing the Real Presence in the Eucharist. When transubstantiation is explained in detail, a Byzantine will generally agree with what happens fundamentally even though they don’t use the same term. A Byzantine will simply state that the Holy Spirit transforms the bread and the wine into the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ without getting into a detailed explanation of exactly what happens with transubstantiation.

The spirituality of the various Christian traditions also differs. In the Roman Catholic Church, there are many popular devotions which have developed over time, the most well-known of which is the Rosary. Byzantines do not pray the Rosary. They pray the Jesus Prayer. Disciplines during the Great Fast (Lent) and Nativity Fast (Advent) also differ.

In their worship, the Byzantines focus more on all the Persons of the Trinity; whereas in the Ordinary Form of the Roman Catholic Mass focuses more on Jesus Christ. For example, the Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) are only invoked twice in the Mass, once at the beginning and once at the end. In the Divine Liturgy of the Byzantine Rite, we invoke the Trinity numerous times. So many times that I cannot really count! I have also found that the Roman Catholic Mass is more focused on quiet contemplation while the Byzantine Divine Liturgy is more focused on worship and asking for mercy from God.

For centuries, there was no (or very little) geographic overlap between the Roman Catholic Church and the various Eastern Catholic Churches. With the migration of people from the east to the west, there is overlap, especially in immigration destinations such as Canada, the US and Australia. This has caused some conflict between the Roman and various Eastern Churches. One example is that the Eastern Churches have a tradition of ordaining married men to the priesthood, while celibacy is the discipline in the Roman Catholic Church. There was a conflict between the Roman and Eastern bishops in the US over this issue. For a time, the Eastern Catholic Churches were not allowed to ordain married men to the priesthood in the US. The concern of the Roman Catholic bishops was that the Eastern Catholic Churches would look too much like the Orthodox Churches and confuse all the Roman Catholics. Finally, the Eastern Catholic Churches are allowed to follow their tradition in ordaining married men to the priesthood in the US as of last year. However, the one thing that is the same in all the Catholic Churches is that no man who is ordained to the priesthood may marry after ordination.

Here is a list of all the Catholic Churches. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Catholic_rites_and_churches

There are 24 now with the creation of the Eritrean Catholic Church earlier this year.

One more thing, Jane. The Catholic Church is not nearly as centralized as most people seem to think it is. The LDS church is far more centrally controlled than the Catholic Church could dream of being. The reality is that the local bishops pretty much run things in their dioceses without that much oversight from the Vatican. Yes, there is canon law and rules that bishops and priests are supposed to follow, but that doesn’t mean they necessarily do or that the Vatican will always crack down when rules are not followed.

 

[jane_doe]

Jane - The sentence below is the important fact Brandon was trying to get across. That you would pick one word from a two paragraph answer seems to me you want to find fault with the statement, not try to understand it. He gave examples of what the differences are and those differences have to do with the practice of the churches, not the doctrine. He just said it far more eloquent than I. Where I live it would be difficult to find a Catholic church of a different rite so I don’t know a great deal about the various rites, or the Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, etc.

Horton, I thought we have moved passed the distrusting-ready-to-jump phase. I didn’t suddenly turn into an anti-Catholic nitpicker on you, I’m still just here to chat and mutually learn. Still friendly, I promise .

Brandon has been most helpful in his explanations of the 22 different Catholic churches. He examples of cultural examples were quite illustrative (thank you for that, btw Brandon). So, that base being so well covered, I didn’t have any more questions on cultural stuff. I then asked about the implied few doctrinal differences, as Brandon didn’t really touch on that too much.

Let’s keep things friendly

 

[jane_doe]

(name removed by moderator)urus, thank you for that post informative answer (post 221).

This conversation is fundamentally altering the way I think about Catholics. I’m going to recap on a couple of things, please correct me in the probable event I’m getting some of this wrong (including using the wrong words).

Things which are NOT Catholic doctrine:

1. Being under one centralized earthly leadership
2. The rosary is cultural, not doctrine (my mind kind of blown on that one)
3. When sacraments happen is cultural, not doctrine
4. Who can serve as preist is cultural, not doctrine
5. Vestment are cultural, not doctrine
6. Which bread you use for Eucharist is cultural, not doctrine
7. Stuff with kneeling… why in the world would kneeling matter?
8. Why in the world would it matter if you take the bread and wine in two bites are one?
9. The RCC fondness to act like scientists by dissecting every little concept and using fancy words for it? (I mean that not insultingly, I’ve just met a lot of Catholics who sound like scientists. I’m going of the #221 point of Byzantines not using the word “transubstantiation”)
10. Who to reference in prayers during worship services (RCC being mostly “Jesus” vs Byzantine “Father, Son, and Holy Spirit”

What IS Catholic doctrine:

1. Jesus is substantially present in the Eucharist,
2. Whether divorce and remarriage is not adultery
3. Whether missing Mass on a Holy Day of Obligation is a sin. But what is considers a Holy Day varies between the churches?
4. Holy Trinity = 3
5. Priest may not get married after becoming a priest. Is this doctrine, or just a universal tradition?

Differences in Theology isn’t really There because:

1. Using different words/analogies to describe the exact same thing

If the difference is 100% cultural, why argue about it? Why ban some priests from being married just because you’re in the US? And to have it continue until 2014…

I’ll touch on your lack of Vatican oversight later (that’s a very different discussion).

 

[Jerusha]

A priest can get married, he is still a priest, but barred from administering the sacraments, except for baptism, and usually from assisting at marriages. In the long term absence of a priest from a community (canon law 1112) a deacon or other delegate can do so. vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_P40.HTM

Usually, a priest, declaring himself not suited for the celibate state, or no longer suited, can request a dispensation to be released.

There are certain rare circumstances when a married clergyman from one of the high churches or Orthodox traditions converts, and can be ordained, and continue living with his wife.

The Holydays of Obligation can vary according to country and diocese.

 

[iepuras]

This conversation is fundamentally altering the way I think about Catholics. I’m going to recap on a couple of things, please correct me in the probable event I’m getting some of this wrong (including using the wrong words).

Things which are NOT Catholic doctrine:

1. Being under one centralized earthly leadership

The primacy of Peter is doctrinal. The bishop of Rome does have universal jurisdiction. It’s not a cultural thing. However, the pope is not a micromanager over all other bishops. You see the collegiality among the apostles in Acts but when it came down to conflicts being resolved, it was Peter who had the final say.

1. The rosary is cultural, not doctrine (my mind kind of blown on that one)

The Rosary is a spiritual devotion that developed in the RCC. Other Catholics are free to pray the Rosary as a personal devotion but they do not pray the Rosary as a group. I don’t pray the Rosary, and I don’t particularly like it (sorry). I much prefer to pray the Jesus Prayer.

1. When sacraments happen is cultural, not doctrine

Traditions surrounding the sacraments developed over time but we all have the same 7 sacraments. In the Byzantine churches, the priest is the ordinary minister of the 3 sacraments of initiation (Baptism, Chrismation and Eucharist). As such, Byzantine priests do all three at the same time for all who enter the church, regardless of age. In the RCC, the priest is the ordinary minister of Baptism but the bishop is the ordinary minister of Confirmation. As the Church grew over time, bishops couldn’t be at every baptism. They had to travel, so baptisms, especially for infants were done all year round and confirmations were done when the bishop came into town. Eventually the rules regarding when children in the RCC received Confirmation and First Communion were established after the tradition was developed over time. Neither way is wrong and both have their advantages and disadvantages. For me, I prefer the Byzantine way as children have access to the graces associated with the sacraments of Chrismation and the Eucharist from an early age and I want my children to have all the graces they can get!

1. Who can serve as preist is cultural, not doctrine

Some things related to the priesthood are doctrinal. For example, women cannot be ordained. Once a man is ordained, he cannot marry. Married men can even be ordained in the RCC but they generally come over from another church (e.g., Anglican). But if they become widowed, they cannot remarry. The discipline in the RCC is to ordain only unmarried men, but it is not dogma and could, in theory, change.

1. Vestment are cultural, not doctrine

Yes

1. Which bread you use for Eucharist is cultural, not doctrine

It is tradition. There are different theologies concerning why leavened or unleavened bread is used, but we all believe in the Real Presence regardless of leaven.

1. Stuff with kneeling… why in the world would kneeling matter?
2. Why in the world would it matter if you take the bread and wine in two bites are one?

As Catholics, we believe in the Real Presence in the Eucharist, meaning that we believe we are in the presence of God after the consecration. So posture and how we treat the Eucharist are extremely important because we want to show the utmost respect to our Lord! If you are in the presence of God, what would you do?

In my Byzantine parish, we stand for most of the Divine Liturgy and we make profound bows at the consecration and other key moments in the liturgy. We do not kneel, which my knees appreciate! However, we do have kneelers in our church. I’m guessing the Melkites use the kneelers. Some Byzantine churches kneel during Divine Liturgy, others stand the whole time. It’s tradition.

1. The RCC fondness to act like scientists by dissecting every little concept and using fancy words for it? (I mean that not insultingly, I’ve just met a lot of Catholics who sound like scientists. I’m going of the #221 point of Byzantines not using the word “transubstantiation”)

Some of the greatest theologians of the Church are Greek Fathers. Historically, the Church in the East and the West faced different heresies and so the respective theologians addressed different things in different ways. Byzantines tend to go with the idea of where little is known, little should be said as it is all a mystery of faith.

1. Who to reference in prayers during worship services (RCC being mostly “Jesus” vs Byzantine “Father, Son, and Holy Spirit”

What IS Catholic doctrine:

1. Jesus is substantially present in the Eucharist,
2. Whether divorce and remarriage is not adultery
3. Whether missing Mass on a Holy Day of Obligation is a sin. But what is considers a Holy Day varies between the churches?
4. Holy Trinity = 3
5. Priest may not get married after becoming a priest. Is this doctrine, or just a universal tradition?

Differences in Theology isn’t really There because:

1. Using different words/analogies to describe the exact same thing

If the difference is 100% cultural, why argue about it? Why ban some priests from being married just because you’re in the US? And to have it continue until 2014…

I’ll touch on your lack of Vatican oversight later (that’s a very different discussion).

Well, we are human and we sin. For better or worse, we argue about things all the time.

The Roman Catholic Church was already in the Americas long before Slavs started immigrating, which is how the Byzantine churches got here. Here is a history of the Ruthenian Catholic Church in the US which explains some of the disputes and issues with the local Roman Catholic leadership.

archpitt.org/resources/history/archeparchy-of-pittsburgh

 

[jane_doe]

Thank you again, iepuras, for a great response.

The primacy of Peter is doctrinal. The bishop of Rome does have universal jurisdiction.

I still have lot of questions about this, the pope/bishops, and the relationships between the different Catholic churches, but will hold must of them back until finishing the link you provided before asking more.

Is the CCC accepted by all 22 churches?
Is it looked down upon to have a favorite rite and to dislike another?

The Rosary is a spiritual devotion that developed in the RCC. Other Catholics are free to pray the Rosary as a personal devotion but they do not pray the Rosary as a group. I don’t pray the Rosary, and I don’t particularly like it (sorry). I much prefer to pray the Jesus Prayer.

I totally did not know that!

 

[Telstar]

I had meant to ask you how you handled (in reality or in more idealized theory) beliefs your kids were exposed to from other Catholics which you personally disagree with.

It wasn’t really ‘other Catholics’ that were the biggest problem. It was the changes that were being made to the Mass, and to the churches themselves, that came out of some very liberal interpretations of Vat II, that were done (or approved) by some Bishops and Priests (particularly in the US). They were probably well intentioned, but some of them took things a little too far. Some of those changes were never intended to happen, at all. Unfortunately, it caused a lot of confusion amongst many of the people of the Church, at that time.

Some of the things that happened in our local churches were at least seriously pushing the boundaries of being heretical, while others clearly crossed that line by a mile. It broke my heart, but I ran away like a coward, instead of staying and trying to make things better. But, I never stopped believing in the Church. I certainly thought it was suffering a serious crisis of faith, and the devil (yes, I absolutely believe he’s real) was trying to tear it down from the inside. My belief in that premise has never changed, to this day. I know he’s still at it, just by looking around at all of the people in the world that are constantly attacking the Church in one way or another. But, as Jesus said in Matthew 16:18, “And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

I know that there is diversity in Catholic beliefs, and in the last hour I have found the differences I previously knew were just the iceberg tip!

Not really big differences in beliefs, but in practices that are mostly based on local traditional (lower case ‘t’) culture. Most of those differences, usually come from the country of origin’s culture.

And great for your son dragging you back to church! And great for you for going!

Yeah, he’s great.

Whether a particular LDS person hangs out with more LDS friends or not can be influenced by a number of factors. These include--

That’s what I figured. It’s the same with different Catholic churches. Local culture and tradition has a major influence on how things are done, but the dogma and doctrines are always consistent. And, the ones that are ‘in communion with Rome’, are all under the leadership of the Pope. He has the final say on what’s acceptable or not.

Warning: I have a very big rant about this (pent up irritation through the years). I’ll try to keep it short.

The Mormon Gospel is NOT Utah culture!!! “Utah” culture isn’t even “Mormon” culture!! The Gospel is NOT green jello, roadshows, Jane Austin books, or saying “heck”. You don’t have to take communion with your right hand. You do not have to wear a white shirt to hand out communion. You will not die if you’re out of the house past midnight. And pop is NOT of the devil. And by golly, stop critiquing my outfit!

None of that is the Gospel. It is simply a bunch of cultural habits which have been acquired throughout the years. There is nothing sacred about it, and it is grave sin to shun someone simply because they have different culture than you do.

(Ok, Rant now over )

For what it’s worth, in recent years it seems to me that many Mormons in UT/ID have improved in their acceptance of diversity. Church leadership certainly has. I still despise UT culture though.

Once again, culture and local traditions are the key in LDS, as well.

I love visiting other churches, and I’ve been to dozens of them. I see things from a different perspectives, meet great people, and gain a deeper appreciation of Christ. But… when I leave those doors, I am spiritually still hungry-- like my meal there was missing an important vitamin. I tried another church after church, trying to fill the hunger, but it got worse and worse, until it became a near obsession. Finally, I swallowed my pride, and went back to the LDS church, suddenly my hunger was gone: I was home, and this was right.

It is the theology and spirituality which drives me to the LDS church, not the culture.

Perhaps it has more to do with what you’re comfortable with, than it does with spirituality. We tend to feel more secure in familiar surroundings than we do in a ‘strange place’ that’s less familiar. I think it’s possibly more of an emotional attachment than a spiritual one, but that’s understandable. As long as we keep searching for the truth and growing in spirituality, we all figure out where we belong, eventually.

 

[iepuras]

Thank you again, iepuras, for a great response.

I still have lot of questions about this, the pope/bishops, and the relationships between the different Catholic churches, but will hold must of them back until finishing the link you provided before asking more.

Is the CCC accepted by all 22 churches?
Is it looked down upon to have a favorite rite and to dislike another?

I totally did not know that!

Feel free to ask your questions about the relationships between the various Catholic churches on the Eastern Catholicism subforum. There are many posters there who know a lot more about the ins and outs of that much better than I do!

Yes, the CCC is for all Catholic churches east and west. It is the Catechism of the Catholic Church, not the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church. Both east and west participated in developing the CCC. The Eastern Churches do have their own codes of canon law.

At least in the US, the vast majority of Roman Catholics have no idea that the Eastern Catholic churches even exist! It can be difficult to explain it all, especially with people who don’t even know much about Eastern Orthodoxy. I think it is pretty normal to feel more comfortable or to prefer one’s own Rite over others. More traditional Roman Catholics tend to appreciate the Byzantine Rite and some periodically come visit us. Some even end up staying!

 

[Brandon_Cal]

jane_doe,

The reason I used ‘almost’ as a qualifier in my answer is because there are indeed differences between the particular churches that touch on doctrine but are not actually doctrinal in nature (and neither are they properly understood as mere cultural differences).

As iepuras and others have mentioned, there are some pretty stark differences in theology between the various churches if we understand theology to be the study of religious belief and, I think more importantly, the application thereof. Think of two different people coming to the same conclusion but by using two different trains of thought. The conclusions (doctrines) are the same, but the trains of thought (the theology) are diverse.

Early Christianity didn’t begin as the highly centralized beast that many people think of Catholicism today. By as early as the late 2nd century you had dozens of local churches strewn about the entire Roman Empire, a land mass nearly 1 million square kilometers consisting of hundreds of diverse cultures! This is during an age when communication traveled at the speed of letter and horse. As the nascent faith grew independently in various parts of the empire (and outside of the empire; let’s not forget that Christianity traveled as far as India and China), the local churches began to put their own cultural veneers on the expression of the Faith. It isn’t surprising then to find that different peoples would focus on different aspects of the Faith or would come up with their own means of defending and defining the Faith.

As the density of Christians exploded, and communication became quicker there wasn’t seen to be any need to consolidate the expressions of the Faith any more than would be strictly necessary (or to use a term you as a Mormon would understand: the Catholic Church saw no need for “correlation”). Even if that were to be ideal, whose rituals and theology do you hold up as the paragon of Christian theology? By arbitrarily picking one as the standard you necessarily denigrate all the others. St. Paul explicitly tells the various churches not to do this (Col 2:16). Unfortunately humans are fallen creatures filled with xenophobia and a sense of cultural supremacy so this tolerance of diversity hasn’t always been upheld.

One of the best examples of this I can think of is the case of the Portuguese arrival in Goa, India in the early 16th century. Vasco da Gama arrives with his cohort of Roman Catholic priests ready to convert the heathens to Christianity. Problem was there were already Christians on the Indian Subcontinent since the late 1st Century! These St. Thomas Christians as they were called (who would become the ancestors of the Syro-Malabar & Syro-Malankara Catholic churches) were looked upon with suspicion since they kept a Syriac liturgy, had married priests, etc. The majority were technically in communion with the Assyrian Church of the East (likely due to geographic proximity than deliberate action). They had been cut off from the Western Christian world for more than a thousand years. The Portuguese, rather than try to incorporate their already existing structures into the greater Catholic Church, just imposed Roman Catholicism. Today instead of having Indian Catholics united under a common ritual church (either Syro-Malankara or Syro-Malabar) you also have Roman Catholic Indians, a legacy of Portuguese colonization.

 

[Horton]

Horton, I thought we have moved passed the distrusting-ready-to-jump phase. I didn’t suddenly turn into an anti-Catholic nitpicker on you, I’m still just here to chat and mutually learn. Still friendly, I promise .

Brandon has been most helpful in his explanations of the 22 different Catholic churches. He examples of cultural examples were quite illustrative (thank you for that, btw Brandon). So, that base being so well covered, I didn’t have any more questions on cultural stuff. I then asked about the implied few doctrinal differences, as Brandon didn’t really touch on that too much.

Let’s keep things friendly

In keeping things friendly please do not scold me. This is an open forum and as long as the rules are followed we are free to post what we think. You in no way KNOW my motives behind what I post, you just think I must have one. So moving past the distrusting-ready-to-jump phase may be something you may need to work on. That passive-aggressive tactic doesn’t work so well with me.

 

[jane_doe]

jane_doe,

The reason I used ‘almost’ as a qualifier…

Thanks Brandon! You guys have all be a really great help me understanding things.

 

[jane_doe]

Feel free to ask your questions about the relationships between the various Catholic churches on the Eastern Catholicism subforum. There are many posters there who know a lot more about the ins and outs of that much better than I do!

Thanks for the tip! I will definitely do that after finishing your previous link.

 

[jane_doe]

It wasn’t really ‘other Catholics’ that were the biggest problem…

If you don’t mind me asking, what were they doing which was so heretical? Do you feel that things have improved today?

Once again, culture and local traditions are the key in LDS, as well.

Yes, culture and local traditions influence LDS, Catholics, and any other group. However, I am finding that LDS tend to be more centralized that Catholics; specifically things like dogma is very set forth in the form of standardized lesson manuals throughout the world. But Mormons are highly encouraged to put things in there individual words, which diversifies the way things are said.

Perhaps it has more to do with what you’re comfortable with, than it does with spirituality. We tend to feel more secure in familiar surroundings than we do in a ‘strange place’ that’s less familiar. I think it’s possibly more of an emotional attachment than a spiritual one, but that’s understandable. As long as we keep searching for the truth and growing in spirituality, we all figure out where we belong, eventually.

Disclaimer: I am pretty sure you’re going to disagree with my next statement, but it is my thoughts, and we of course can agree to disagree.

The things I find most anchoring in the LDS faith as opposed to others their theology on agency, the nature of God, and the purpose of this life.

What I do not find particularly anchoring is UT culture, 9 babies screaming during worship service, layman speakers which go “um” every third word, and when the organist plays like it’s a funeral. Most of all, when I’ve heard the same lesson so many times I can recite it word-for-word. I also find it very hard to make friends at church, even when I try (just super hard to relate to a stay-at-home-mom who frankly seems really sheltered).

What I like about visiting other churches is the different sites, different people, and different ways of looking at things. I love diversity.

 

[PaulDupre1]

Originally Posted by iepuras
The Rosary is a spiritual devotion that developed in the RCC. Other Catholics are free to pray the Rosary as a personal devotion but they do not pray the Rosary as a group. I don’t pray the Rosary, and I don’t particularly like it (sorry). I much prefer to pray the Jesus Prayer.

Hi Jane,

Many non-Catholics have been given a distorted sense of the importance of the rosary in Catholic life. This mostly comes from Hollywood.

In movies about Catholic religious sisters (often mistakenly called “nuns”) you always see them with a rosary. This is because most orders of religious sisters do have a deep spirituality that includes a strong identification with Mary the mother of Jesus - her single-hearted devotion to her Son, her humility, her simple and unquestioning obedience to the will of God, and so forth. Because of this, many non-Catholics assume that all Catholics are rosary-centered.

Another common Hollywood image is that of old ladies at mass with their heads bowed clutching a rosary. The rosary is definitely not part of the mass. But back in the old days when the mass was celebrated in Latin, some of the simple folk, rather than follow along in the missal (which had the Latin and the vernacular language side-by-side), simply performed their private devotions while the mass was being celebrated. This was never the correct thing to do, but people give little old ladies a wide latitude.

Somehow non-Catholic viewers of these films got the idea that the mass is all about Mary.

Nothing could be further from the truth. The mass is one long Todah prayer and sacrifice to the Father in the Name of Jesus. Every prayer in the mass is addressed to the Father in the name of Jesus.

The consecration of the Eucharist ends with this: “Through Him [Jesus], with Him, and in Him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honor is yours, Almighty Father, forever and ever, amen.”

All that being said, I love the rosary and pray it regularly. It is a prayerful meditation on the major events in Jesus’ life as seen through His mother’s eyes. But it is in no way required or universal. I just happen to personally derive a great deal from it.

There is no one correct way to be a Catholic. There is a beautiful spiritual path to suit everyone. It is part of the freedom that Jesus promised us. One of the things we all have in common is the Eucharistic celebration - the mass - where we as a community of faith encounter the risen Christ together.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

 

[XuDan]

Thanks Brandon! You guys have all be a really great help me understanding things.

Seriously. I’m eating up all this info too!

I am finding that LDS tend to be more centralized that Catholics…

The LDS are much more centralized. To personalize it for you, think of this this way, if each area authority was left to govern their jurisdiction, and the presidency only stepped in when there were disagreements or problems that couldn’t otherwise be solved.

specifically things like dogma is very set forth in the form of standardized lesson manuals throughout the world.

The CCC is basically this. At least in that if you need to know the standardized doctrine or dogma on something, you can find it there. As it relates to all Catholics that is. The closest comparison is “Mormon Doctrine” by Bruce R. McConkie. It would be the equivalent of the CCC if it had been canonized by the LDS church. For a long time, it was regarded similarly, but that opinion is now unpopular and fallen out of the favor. That said it is still widely used and referenced officially, just not considered authoritative now. A lot of this is because the doctrine has changed since, and now the book is out of print (since 2010).

But Mormons are highly encouraged to put things in there individual words, which diversifies the way things are said.

This is true, the downside to this is that it leads to a great many misconceptions, over-the-shoulder doctrine, and confusion.

9 babies screaming during worship service, layman speakers which go “um” every third word, and when the organist plays like it’s a funeral.

Only 9 babies? And parents refusing to use the “cry rooms” that every ward has? Or getting offended if using a “cry room” is even suggested? It is hard enough to follow most speakers mumbling their way through a talk, but adding in half the Ward’s crying kids made it almost impossible some days. I used to call the organists who played slow and solemn (instead of at the pace the hymn calls for) “dirge musicians.” I don’t know why it is so prevalent but I always found that to be depressing instead of uplifting. I feel your pain!

Most of all, when I’ve heard the same lesson so many times I can recite it word-for-word.

This is usually why there were so many of us in the hallways and foyer “chewing the fat” instead of in class. We didn’t want to hear the same lesson for the 30th time so instead socialized.

 

[XuDan]

There is no one correct way to be a Catholic. There is a beautiful spiritual path to suit everyone. It is part of the freedom that Jesus promised us. One of the things we all have in common is the Eucharistic celebration - the mass - where we as a community of faith encounter the risen Christ together.

Which is, as I’ve had it explained to me, why the word Catholic is used. It means “Universal” and the fact that there are so many rites in communion, and those numbers are rising, is a testament to that.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Disclaimer: I am pretty sure you’re going to disagree with my next statement, but it is my thoughts, and we of course can agree to disagree.

The things I find most anchoring in the LDS faith as opposed to others their theology on agency, the nature of God, and the purpose of this life.

What is there about the theology on agency, how is it different than others belief in free will?

 

[iepuras]

There is no one correct way to be a Catholic. There is a beautiful spiritual path to suit everyone. It is part of the freedom that Jesus promised us. One of the things we all have in common is the Eucharistic celebration - the mass - where we as a community of faith encounter the risen Christ together.

This is one of the many reasons why I love being Catholic.

Jane and XuDan, if you are interested in Eastern Christian spirituality, I recommend checking out this documentary, “Mysteries of the Jesus Prayer”, on the Jesus Prayer, which is a very, very old devotion. This is the tv version, but there is a longer version available on Amazon and elsewhere. My only complaint is that the Romanian monasteries they visit are NOT in Transylvania! They are in Bucovina! I know because I have been there.

youtube.com/watch?v=697OSC6BgTs

Much of Eastern Christian spirituality comes from the ascetics, monks and nuns.

 

[PaulDupre1]

Which is, as I’ve had it explained to me, why the word Catholic is used. It means “Universal” and the fact that there are so many rites in communion, and those numbers are rising, is a testament to that.