Do LDS Believe A Premillenial Rapture Occurred Prior to the Great Apostasy?

[Robert_in_SD]

One LDS member has commented that the Rapture* already occurred - prior to the time of the “Great Apostasy.” In other words the true Church was taken out of the world (or “raptured”) shortly after the death of the last Apostle, then the Church quickly apostasized, then it was restored to Earth by Joseph Smith. Does this position correctly state LDS doctrine?

• I was assuming that by using the term “Rapture” this LDS person meant a premillenial pre-tribulation rapture.

Let’s discuss

 

[Zakuska]

There are 4 ressurections spoken of in scripture.

1) Christ
2) The firstfruits
3) Those still alive at his coming
4) the rest of the dead.

1 and two 2 happened.

1 Cor 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: 1) Christ the 2) firstfruits; afterward 3) they that are Christ’s at his coming.
24 **4)**Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

2) Matt. 27: 53
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

3 and 4 are future.

3 will happen when Christ comes in Glory.
Matt 25:31

This draws to a close the 1st Ressurection.

Rev 20
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

After the 1000 year reign of Christ and his saints is up. The second ressurection of the rest of the Dead happens. As outlined in the above verse.

 

[majick275]

In all my LDS years the folks in that church who shared your views on this were definitely a tiny minority that was marginalized within LDS circles. I have to ask if you are truly active, SLC style, GBH sustaining LDS? Not criticizing YOU just questioning your own view of how “orthodox” you think your beleifs are.

I know an awful lot of Mormons whose patriarchal blessings seal them to come forth in the first resurection who might view this differently. Interesting subject.

 

[amgid]

Robert in SD:

One LDS member has commented that the Rapture* already occurred - prior to the time of the “Great Apostasy.” In other words the true Church was taken out of the world (or “raptured”) shortly after the death of the last Apostle, then the Church quickly apostasized, then it was restored to Earth by Joseph Smith. Does this position correctly state LDS doctrine?

• I was assuming that by using the term “Rapture” this LDS person meant a premillenial pre-tribulation rapture.

Let’s discuss

The concept of “rapture,” at least as you have defined it, is an alien concept in LDS theology. I have no idea what an LDS person could have meant by that. “Rapture” is not a common terminology used by LDS. The nearest thing to it that I can think of is “translation,” as took place with the city of Enoch for example. If that is what you are asking, the answer is no, we don’t believe that the “true Church” was translated before the Apostasy.

amgid

 

[majick275]

amgid,
look at Zak’s post #2 on this thread and you will see waht Robert is talking about. I agree with you stated on this but Zakuska appears at least to have a difference of opinion.

Perhaps if you two could discuss this then we could see if it’s just something we Catholics are misunderstanding or if there is truly a range of beliefs on this within the LDS church.

 

[amgid]

majick275:

amgid,
look at Zak’s post #2 on this thread and you will see waht Robert is talking about. I agree with you stated on this but Zakuska appears at least to have a difference of opinion.

Perhaps if you two could discuss this then we could see if it’s just something we Catholics are misunderstanding or if there is truly a range of beliefs on this within the LDS church.

I did read his post, and all I can say is that he seems to have misunderstood Robert’s post. Zak is talking about the resurrection, which is a perfectly correct doctrine in LDS theology. LDS theology also teaches that the resurrection takes place in several stages, which is also what Zak is talking about, and that is correct. But Robert was not talking about the resurrection at all. He was talking about something completely different. So all I can say is that Zak must have misunderstood Robert’s post.

I have no disagreement with what Zak has written, except that he may be a bit too rigid in his definition. For example, Moroni appeared to Joseph Smith as a resurrected personage, therefore his resurrection had happened between the four stages that he has defined. Those definitions therefore cannot be too rigidly applied.

amgid

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Amgid;

Your response is what I expected to hear from the LDS. My understanding is that the “Rapture” is a concept recently developed within the evangelical and fundamentalist movements and speaks of a “rapture” - meaning a removal of the “church” from the earth. Generally, this occurs just before the “tribulation period” or in some theologies in the midst of it. But, in a prior post on another thread Zak appeared to suggest that what occurred prior to the “Great Apostasy” was a removal or “rapture” of the church. I don’t recall any of the early church fathers writing about how Christ came back, but I’m pretty sure they would have had a little something to say on the subject, had it occurred.

Regarding Zak’s post, I can see where the confusion lies as between LDS resurrection doctrine and the rapture. In fundamentalist thinking there is overlap and one could argue from their point of view that the “rapture” is the equivalent of No. 3 in Zak’s list. At least, that’s how it appears to me.

 

[amgid]

Robert in SD:

Amgid;

Your response is what I expected to hear from the LDS. My understanding is that the “Rapture” is a concept recently developed within the evangelical and fundamentalist movements and speaks of a “rapture” - meaning a removal of the “church” from the earth. Generally, this occurs just before the “tribulation period” or in some theologies in the midst of it. But, in a prior post on another thread Zak appeared to suggest that what occurred prior to the “Great Apostasy” was a removal or “rapture” of the church. I don’t recall any of the early church fathers writing about how Christ came back, but I’m pretty sure they would have had a little something to say on the subject, had it occurred.

Regarding Zak’s post, I can see where the confusion lies as between LDS resurrection doctrine and the rapture. In fundamentalist thinking there is overlap and one could argue from their point of view that the “rapture” is the equivalent of No. 3 in Zak’s list. At least, that’s how it appears to me.

There are indeed LDS scriptures that teach that at the second coming of the Lord, the dead (saints) will be resurrected to meet Him in the cloud, as He descends to earth. LDS scripture also teaches that those saints that are alive on earth at that time will likewise be caught up to meet Him in the cloud, just before His final judgements will befall the wicked. If you want to call that “wrapture,” I suppose you can!

amgid

 

[Robert_in_SD]

amgid:

There are indeed LDS scriptures that teach that at the second coming of the Lord, the dead (saints) will be resurrected to meet Him in the cloud, as He descends to earth. LDS scripture also teaches that those saints that are alive on earth at that time will likewise be caught up to meet Him in the cloud, just before His final judgements will befall the wicked. If you want to call that “wrapture,” I suppose you can!

amgid

Just for the sake of clarification - I don’t accept the concept of a premillenial rapture as doctrine - and the Catholic Church does not teach or endorse premillenialism, nor does it endorse or teach the “rapture” doctrrine. Here’s a link to a Catholic Answers tract setting forth the distinction:

The Rapture

 

[Zakuska]

majick275:

amgid,
look at Zak’s post #2 on this thread and you will see waht Robert is talking about. I agree with you stated on this but Zakuska appears at least to have a difference of opinion.

Perhaps if you two could discuss this then we could see if it’s just something we Catholics are misunderstanding or if there is truly a range of beliefs on this within the LDS church.

No Rapture? Try the last verse in the BOM.

34 And now I bid unto all, farewell. I soon go to arest in the paradise of God, until my spirit and body shall again reunite, and I am brought forth triumphant through the air, to meet you before the pleasing bar of the great Jehovah, the Eternal Judge of both quick and dead. Amen.

The Rapture as Evangelicals define is a farce. There is no Left behind. In fact… we are the left behind.

The STD misinterpretation of a missing 70th week of Daniels 490 years is where the idea of a 7 year period where the church is “taken from the earth” while the AntiChrist has his way with those “left behind”. There is no missing 7th week. Its all accounted for and fuffilled in Christs first coming.

As I was discussing this on another forum this verse came up:
Matthew 24
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

This is supposed to happen after the Anitchirst comes or something so the question is… if the church is “raptured into heaven” How can the church be delivered to the sword and be killed? Or perhaps the act of dieing is their Rapture into heaven?

Heres a good article on it:
orthodoxonline.com/leftbehind.htm

 

[Zakuska]

majick275:

In all my LDS years the folks in that church who shared your views on this were definitely a tiny minority that was marginalized within LDS circles. I have to ask if you are truly active, SLC style, GBH sustaining LDS? Not criticizing YOU just questioning your own view of how “orthodox” you think your beleifs are.

I know an awful lot of Mormons whose patriarchal blessings seal them to come forth in the first resurection who might view this differently. Interesting subject.

You should read D&C 29…

scriptures.lds.org/dc/29/13#13

What Ive outlined is all over LDS cannon. How more “orthodox” can you get?

 

[majick275]

Perhaps I am misunderstanding your position then. I was under the impression that you were claiming that the “firstfruits” involved the primitive church being resurected and taken into heaven. (rapture) That this was a past event.

 

[Zakuska]

Well I have entertained that thought.

I personally beleive in All the various Rapture theories to a certian extent.

There definatley was a “Rapture” Just after Christ but it wasnt the Primitive church. It was the Ancient church who Christ visited in hades when he decended into the bowels of the earth. He took them with him to heaven and they will be coming back with him at his Second Coming.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Zakuska:

No Rapture?..

We appear to have an issue arising from the use of different terms to describe essentially the same process. Amgid’s post seems to be referring to the resurrection of the dead and the gathering in of the living christians by Christ that occurs at the time of the second coming of Christ, as discussed in 1 Thes.:

[14] For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
[15] For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first;
[17] then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. (1 Thes. 4:14-17.)

I think both Catholic and LDS are in agreement as to this process occurring. Where we appear to differ is over whether there will be a millenial reign separating the Second Coming from the Final Judgment (the LDS view) or whether the Resurrection and Second Coming willl be immediately followed by a Final Judgment. (The Catholic position). Also, I think there is a difference of opinion as to whether the Tribulation is presently occurring. What Zakuska calls the “Rapture” I (and amgid?) would call the “Resurrection that occurs at the time of Christ’s Second Coming”

The term Rapture (modern day parlance) commonly refers to the taking away into Heaven of the “church” to escape the persecutions of the “Tribulation Period” (a premillenial and pre-tribulation rapture to be more specific) but it appears that we are all in agreement that the Church will not be spared from this suffering. If so, then Catholic and LDS theology is in accord on this issue as well, Zakuska is just using different terms to describe the same underlying process.

(1) Tribulation (ongoing in LDS opinion; yet to occur in Catholic opinion);
(2) Resurrection of the dead in Christ
(3) Second Coming of Christ (concurrent with (2))
(5) followed by the Final Judgment.*
(6) New Heaven and New Earth

*LDS theology is the same, but would seem to also include:
(4) millenial (literal 1,000 year?) reign of Christ on Earth. (Not part of Catholic doctrine)

It appears that neither of us buy into a “Rapture” of the church so as to save it from the tribulation. Also, it appears that there was no “rapture” or “translation” prior to the LDS described “Great Apostasy”

Do I have this correct amgid and Zakuska?

 

[Zakuska]

Thats becuase I picked up the EV Term. “Rapture” so that I can talk to them. Im not meaning to confuse.

 

[Zakuska]

But yes you have described it pretty good.

(1) Tribulation (ongoing in LDS opinion; yet to occur in Catholic opinion);
(2) Resurrection of the dead in Christ
(3) Second Coming of Christ (concurrent with (2))
(5) followed by the Final Judgment.*
(6) New Heaven and New Earth

*LDS theology is the same, but would seem to also include:
(4) millenial (literal 1,000 year?) reign of Christ on Earth. (Not part of Catholic doctrine)

It appears that neither of us buy into a “Rapture” of the church so as to save it from the tribulation. Also, it appears that there was no “rapture” or “translation” prior to the LDS described “Great Apostasy”

Well yes and no.

Who did Christ Ressurect and take to heaven with him.

Matt 27:32 (IIRC) Whe know it wasnt the Church and the Apostles because they where still alive. But according to the scripture it was Noah and all the prophets who waited for Christ to come.

Do I have this correct amgid and Zakuska?

Other than those taken to heaven already. Yes.

 

[amgid]

Robert in SD:

We appear to have an issue arising from the use of different terms to describe essentially the same process.

I get the same impression.

Amgid’s post seems to be referring to the resurrection of the dead and the gathering in of the living christians by Christ that occurs at the time of the second coming of Christ, as discussed in 1 Thes.: …

That is correct; and also to LDS scripture:

D&C 29:

13 For a trump shall sound both long and loud, even as upon Mount Sinai, and all the earth shall quake, and they shall come forth–yea, even the dead which died in me, to receive a crown of righteousness, and to be clothed upon, even as I am, to be with me, that we may be one.

---

15 And there shall be weeping and wailing among the hosts of men;

---

17 And it shall come to pass, because of the wickedness of the world, that I will take vengeance upon the wicked, for they will not repent; for the cup of mine indignation is full; for behold, my blood shall not cleanse them if they hear me not.

D&C 34:

7 For behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, the time is soon at hand that I shall come in a cloud with power and great glory.

8 And it shall be a great day at the time of my coming, for all nations shall tremble.

9 But before that great day shall come, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon be turned into blood; and the stars shall refuse their shining, and some shall fall, and great destructions await the wicked.

D&C 43:

17 Hearken ye, for, behold, the great day of the Lord is nigh at hand.

18 For the day cometh that the Lord shall utter his voice out of heaven; the heavens shall shake and the earth shall tremble, and the trump of God shall sound both long and loud, and shall say to the sleeping nations: Ye saints arise and live; ye sinners stay and sleep until I shall call again.

19 Wherefore gird up your loins lest ye be found among the wicked.

D&C 45:

44 And then they shall look for me, and, behold, I will come; and they shall see me in the clouds of heaven, clothed with power and great glory; with all the holy angels; and he that watches not for me shall be cut off.

45 But before the arm of the Lord shall fall, an angel shall sound his trump, and the saints that have slept shall come forth to meet me in the cloud.

46 Wherefore, if ye have slept in peace blessed are you; for as you now behold me and know that I am, even so shall ye come unto me and your souls shall live, and your redemption shall be perfected;and the saints shall come forth from the four quarters of the earth.

47 Then shall the arm of the Lord fall upon the nations.

---

49 And the Lord shall utter his voice, and all the ends of the earth shall hear it; and the nations of the earth shall mourn, and they that have laughed shall see their folly.

50 And calamity shall cover the mocker, and the scorner shall be consumed; and they that have watched for iniquity shall be hewn down and cast into the fire.

I think both Catholic and LDS are in agreement as to this process occurring.

That would appear to be the case.

Where we appear to differ is over whether there will be a millenial reign separating the Second Coming from the Final Judgment (the LDS view) or whether the Resurrection and Second Coming will be immediately followed by a Final Judgment. (The Catholic position).

I am not sure what you mean by that. Do you mean that the Catholic Church does not believe in the Millennium, meaning the millennial reign of Christ? I had imagined that it would.

If you mean that there is a disagreement on the date of the final judgment, I don’t know much about the Catholic teaching on that, but I can tell you what the LDS position is, and you can tell me if it agrees with the Catholic one or not. According to LDS doctrine, at the second coming of Christ, there will be a general resurrection of all the righteous that had lived up to that time. Those who will be thus resurrected will also be judged at that time. The Millennium will also be preceded by great judgments of God, and the destruction of the wicked. Then, at the end of the Millennium, there will also be a great destruction upon the wicked, followed by a final resurrection of all the rest of mankind that had not yet been resurrected, the wicked as well as a righteous, and a final judgment, after which the world (as we know it) will come to an end.

(Continued in the next post…)

amgid

 

[amgid]

(Continued from the previous post…)

Also, I think there is a difference of opinion as to whether the Tribulation is presently occurring.

I am not sure what you mean by “the Tribulation”. The scriptures are full of “tribulations”! There are many “tribulations” spoken of. There is one “tribulation” spoken of occurring just before the second coming of Christ, and I don’t think that we are in that already. But if you said that we are in some kind of “tribulation,” I don’t think I could argue with that either. If you can define for me what you mean by “Tribulation,” I can tell you how it fits in with LDS doctrine.

What Zakuska calls the “Rapture” I (and amgid?) would call the “Resurrection that occurs at the time of Christ’s Second Coming”

To my way of thinking, “resurrection” and “rapture” are two very different things. Zakuska will have to define his own terms. I don’t know what his definitions are. The word “rapture” is not a commonly used term in LDS theology, and therefore it does not have a well defined meaning in that context. According to the dictionary, it simply means transport. It means being transported from one location to another—e.g. the saints being caught up to meet the Lord in the cloud at His second coming. But whatever you want to define it to mean, it certainly cannot not mean the resurrection. Those are two different things.

The term Rapture (modern day parlance) commonly refers to the taking away into Heaven of the “church” to escape the persecutions of the “Tribulation Period” (a premillenial and pre-tribulation rapture to be more specific)

Again, I am not sure what you mean by the “Tribulation Period”. But LDS scripture does clearly teach that the saints who are alive at the time of the second coming will be caught up to meet the Lord in the cloud as He descends to earth, just before the final judgments of God destroys all the remainder of the wicked on the earth.

but it appears that we are all in agreement that the Church will not be spared from this suffering.

There will be tribulation on earth before the Second Coming, and the saints will not entirely escape that tribulation; but the Lord will protect and spare them, while the wicked who will not repent will be completely destroyed.

If so, then Catholic and LDS theology is in accord on this issue as well, Zakuska is just using different terms to describe the same underlying process.

That would appear to be the case, although I remain a bit confused.

(1) Tribulation (ongoing in LDS opinion; yet to occur in Catholic opinion);

Not sure what “Tribulation” means here, nor “ongoing in LDS opinion”. I don’t think that scriptural assertions on the subject can be interpreted that accurately.

(2) Resurrection of the dead in Christ

Two resurrections yet awaiting to occur: one at the beginning of the Millennium, at the time of the Second Coming; and the other at the end of it.

(3) Second Coming of Christ (concurrent with (2))

I would agree with that.

(5) followed by the Final Judgment.*

Two judgments, one at the beginning of the Millennium, and one at the end of it.

(6) New Heaven and New Earth

Yes, at the end of the Millennial reign of Christ.

*LDS theology is the same, but would seem to also include:
(4) millenial (literal 1,000 year?) reign of Christ on Earth. (Not part of Catholic doctrine)

Is that true then, that the Catholic Church does not accept the doctrine of the Millennium, and the millennial reign of Christ? How then do you explain Revelation 20:1-9?

It appears that neither of us buy into a “Rapture” of the church so as to save it from the tribulation.

Except that the saints will be caught up to meet the Lord in the cloud at His Second Coming; while the judgments of God will destroy the remnants of the wicked which are left on the earth. That is what the scriptures say. You can call that “rapture” if you like, because lexically that is what it means.

Also, it appears that there was no “rapture” or “translation” prior to the LDS described “Great Apostasy”

That is correct. There is no such doctrine in LDS theology.

Do I have this correct amgid and Zakuska?

See above!

amgid

 

[flameburns623]

amgd:

That would appear to be the case.

Where we appear to differ is over whether there will be a millenial reign separating the Second Coming from the Final Judgment (the LDS view) or whether the Resurrection and Second Coming will be immediately followed by a Final Judgment. (The Catholic position).

I am not sure what you mean by that. Do you mean that the Catholic Church does not believe in the Millennium, meaning the millennial reign of Christ? I had imagined that it would.

Amgd:

There are various schema for eschatology: the preterist and/or historicist are one; the futurist is another. Some are a-millenial, some are post-millenial, some are pre-millenial. Obviously, most folks know that on the subject of Rapture there are several views: pre-tribulational rapture, post-tribulational rapture, mid-tribulational rapture. Oddly, the views which have long been held and likely are still held by the largest number of Christians get the least amount of press, while dispensationalist pre-tribulation ideas are among the most well-known views popularly speaking.

The RCC, like many historic Christian denominations, favors an amillenial eschatology. Amillenialism sees Biblical references to the Millenium as representative either of the Church or of Heaven itself. Christ is seen as reigning literally upon the earth right now, via His Church. The ‘thousand years’ is seen as being simply symbolic of a large-but finite-number of years. The most common Catholic exegesis of eschatology favors a partial-preterist view: most of the Book of Revelation and of Matthew 24 were fulfilled in the 1st Century AD by the Fall of Jerusalem, the persecution of the Church by Nero, etcetera. You can, with dificulty, find Catholics who entertain other views of eschatology, but they are rather rare.

Just so that everyone understands: LDS eschatology is not based upon dispensationalism and does not teach a ‘secret rapture’ just prior to the beginning of a seven year period of worldwide tribulation. Mormonism does seem to anticipate that the final onset of the end times will bring with them great sufferings and calamities–hence the emphasis of the LDS leadership upon self-sufficiency and the keeping of a three-year supply of necessary items. This would place Mormonism in the pre-Millenialist, post-tribulationist position: they believe in a literal, thousand-year reign of Christ on the earth, preceded by a period of great difficulty and troubles.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Thankyou flameburns. That was a very succinct discription. I think I posted a link to a Catholic Answers article on the issue, which discusses pre- a- and post- millenialism. But I’ll post it again here for amgid’s benefit, and to keep my post short.

I do believe in the millenium, but I believe we are currently living during the millenial reign of Christ, through His Church. The “Tribulation” I was referring to in my earlier post was the final tribulation that occurs just prior to Christ’s Second Coming.

Sorry for any confusion.