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Robert_in_SD
Guest
I came across a post by an LDS member who suggested that some LDS members believe that Jesus was married. Is this true? To whom was he married? Did he have children?
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tkdnick
Guest
I have an LDS friend (1 person, not claiming LDS doctrine) who thinks that knowledge will come about that proves Jesus was married and had kids. He even suggests that Jesus might have been married to Mary Magdalene.
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arieh0310
Guest
[sarcasm]There is proof, just read Dan Brown’s scholarly work “The Davinci Code”[/sarcasm]
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TOmNossor
Guest
Robert in SD:
I think (even long before the Da Vinci Code) the most common marriage partner suggested is Mary Magdalene and some LDS even suggested that Jesus was married to multiple women.
Some LDS use the importance of marriage for ones eternal progression to suggest that Jesus must have been married, but they neglect to consider the fact that Jesus and the Holy Ghost were fully divine in the pre-existence unlike us.
I think the evidence for Jesus being married is lacking. I have not studied the Da Vinci Code in detail, but as a LDS I do not consider this issue of prime importance.
One of the missing pieces of evidence that would have needed to be purged from history (which of course is not impossible but still) is the use of Jesus as a parent during the Christological controversies. I would think that if Jesus’ decedents were alive and well in France this would be a particularly powerful argument to make while debating one vs. two natures and …
I believe that evidence of the children of Jesus would be a huge blow to non-LDS Christianity, but it would have little impact upon LDS Christianity. I have thus far been uninterested in pursuing the arguments of Holy Blood, Holy Grail (or the Da Vinci Code).
Anyway, there does not seem to me to be any binding reason for LDS to demand that Jesus was married or had children, but there is also not anything to necessarily preclude a non-demanding view that this is true.
Charity, TOm
It is certainly true that some LDS believe or believed that Jesus was married. It is also true that some LDS believe or believed that Jesus had children.
I think (even long before the Da Vinci Code) the most common marriage partner suggested is Mary Magdalene and some LDS even suggested that Jesus was married to multiple women.
Some LDS use the importance of marriage for ones eternal progression to suggest that Jesus must have been married, but they neglect to consider the fact that Jesus and the Holy Ghost were fully divine in the pre-existence unlike us.
I think the evidence for Jesus being married is lacking. I have not studied the Da Vinci Code in detail, but as a LDS I do not consider this issue of prime importance.
One of the missing pieces of evidence that would have needed to be purged from history (which of course is not impossible but still) is the use of Jesus as a parent during the Christological controversies. I would think that if Jesus’ decedents were alive and well in France this would be a particularly powerful argument to make while debating one vs. two natures and …
I believe that evidence of the children of Jesus would be a huge blow to non-LDS Christianity, but it would have little impact upon LDS Christianity. I have thus far been uninterested in pursuing the arguments of Holy Blood, Holy Grail (or the Da Vinci Code).
Anyway, there does not seem to me to be any binding reason for LDS to demand that Jesus was married or had children, but there is also not anything to necessarily preclude a non-demanding view that this is true.
Charity, TOm
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ben_dy
Guest
arieh0310 said:
You know…
…as the resident parish ‘expert’ on the Knights Templars, I was asked by a number of parishioners to read that book so that I could give them the scoop on - at least - the treatment and ‘facts’ written therein.
And I just couldn’t do it. I was able to complete about 40 pages or so but the writing was just so horrible that I could proceed no further. So we ended up having about a dozen people over for a Q&A about the KTs and I was amazed and stunned by some of the questions (which, I assume, most originated from the book).
But just in case you’re interested in the TRUTH behind scholarly works of fiction, a friend of mine sent me a MS Word document with the “true” identities of the characters in Malachi Martin’s almost equally unreadable (though I did read it!) Windswept House.
One hopes that these authors do not go to the grave unrepentant with such enormous slander and calumny presented during their ‘careers’.
I think that there should be both a [sarcasm] and a [dripping madly with sarcasm] “smiley face” available…
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ben_dy
Guest
TOm-
So, in my anti-Mormon expose, “Mormonism: 7th Century B.C. LDS GPS and Magic Underwear”, can I quote you in my “What Mormons Think About Jesus” chapter in this manner:
“When asked ‘Do LDS Believe Jesus Was Married?’ a noted Mormon theologian who asked to remain anonymous was quoted as saying, “Maybe yes, maybe no: who’s to say?””
Just kidding! (And hoping that a few non-LDS will get my “LDS GPS” reference…)
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arieh0310
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Tmaque
Guest
I can say with certainty that most LDS I know believe Jesus was married and had children.
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ben_dy
Guest
arieh0310 said:
Heaven - or it could be the spawn of Hell - only knows.
The author of that short critique had the same reactions that I had - I do not write well yet I expect those who would earn a living from writing to write well. Or at least engagingly, entertaining! Had I been on a flight to Europe - had I even purchased the book instead of it being a loan - I may have read it. Thank goodness I was able to endure only so much before setting it aside for something more well-written and intellectually engaging - “The Complete Family Circus” which features each and every full-color segment in which little Billy meanders rather than taking the shortest path from point A to point B… now that’s entertainment. Bil Keane is a master of suspense and riveting yet succinct prose and dialogue compared with the likes of Dan Brown.
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PaulDupre
Guest
The Mormon Jesus was a polygamist.
This is but a tiny sample of the documentation, in roughly chronological order.
1) Jesus was a polygamist, married to Mary Magdalene, Mary and Martha the sisters of Lazarus, and perhaps others. Also, Jesus had children.
“I discover that some of the Eastern papers represent me as a great blasphemer, because I said, in my lecture on Marriage, at our last Conference, that Jesus Christ was married at Cana of Galilee, that Mary, Martha, and others were his wives, and that he begat children.”
(President Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v2, p210)
“It will be borne in mind that once on a time, there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and on a careful reading of that transaction, it will be discovered that no less a person than Jesus Christ was married on that occasion. If he was never married, his intimacy with Mary and Martha [the sisters of Lazarus] and the other Mary also whom Jesus loved [Mary Magdelene], must have been highly unbecoming and improper to say the best of it.”
(Apostle Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses 4:259)
One thing is certain, that there were several holy women that greatly loved Jesus - such as Mary, and Martha her sister, and Mary Magdalene; and Jesus greatly loved them, and associated with them much; and when He arose from the dead, instead of first showing Himself to His chosen witnesses, the Apostles, He appeared first to these women, or at least to one of them - namely, Mary Magdalene. Now, it would be very natural for a husband in the resurrection to appear first to his own dear wives, and afterwards show himself to his other friends. If all the acts of Jesus were written, we no doubt should learn that these beloved women were his wives. (Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 159)
“We say it was Jesus Christ who was married, to be brought into the relation whereby he could see his seed, before He was crucified. “Has he indeed passed by the nature of angels, and taken upon himself the seed of Abraham, to die without leaving a seed to bear his name on the earth?” No. But when the secret is fully out, the seed of the blessed shall be gathered in, in the last days; and he who has not the blood of Abraham flowing in his veins, who has not one particle of the Saviour’s in him, I am afraid is a stereotyped Gentile, who will be left out and not be gathered in the last days; for I tell you it is the chosen of God, the seed of the blessed, that shall be gathered.”
(Apostle Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses 2:82)
2) Jesus and the apostles were persecuted and killed for being polygamists.
“The grand reason of the burst of public sentiment in anathemas upon Christ and his disciples, causing his crucifixion, was evidently based upon polygamy, according to the testimony of the philosophers who rose in that age. A belief in the doctrine of a plurality of wives caused the persecution of Jesus and his followers. We might almost think they were Mormons."
(Prophet Jedediah M. Grant, Journal of Discourses, Vol.1, p.346, August 7, 1853)
3) Early Mormon leaders were descendents of Christ.
Joseph Smith was the first to reveal this teaching, when he informed the plural wife of Apostle Judge Adams, that the Apostle “was a literal descendant of Jesus Christ.” (Oliver B. Huntington Journal, p. 259)
Prophet Lorenzo Snow, and his counselor George Q. Cannon, later declared this doctrine publicly:
President George Q. Cannon also spoke … he said, "There are those in this audience who are descendants of the old Twelve Apostles - and shall I say it, yes, descendants of the Saviour Himself. His seed is represented in this body of men.
Following Pres. Cannon, President Snow arose and said that what Bro. Cannon had stated respecting the literal descendants among this company of the old apostles and the Saviour himself is true - the Saviour’s seed is represented in this body of men. (Journal of Pres. Rudger Clawson, pp. 374-375)
This is but a tiny sample of the documentation, in roughly chronological order.
1) Jesus was a polygamist, married to Mary Magdalene, Mary and Martha the sisters of Lazarus, and perhaps others. Also, Jesus had children.
“I discover that some of the Eastern papers represent me as a great blasphemer, because I said, in my lecture on Marriage, at our last Conference, that Jesus Christ was married at Cana of Galilee, that Mary, Martha, and others were his wives, and that he begat children.”
(President Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v2, p210)
“It will be borne in mind that once on a time, there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and on a careful reading of that transaction, it will be discovered that no less a person than Jesus Christ was married on that occasion. If he was never married, his intimacy with Mary and Martha [the sisters of Lazarus] and the other Mary also whom Jesus loved [Mary Magdelene], must have been highly unbecoming and improper to say the best of it.”
(Apostle Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses 4:259)
One thing is certain, that there were several holy women that greatly loved Jesus - such as Mary, and Martha her sister, and Mary Magdalene; and Jesus greatly loved them, and associated with them much; and when He arose from the dead, instead of first showing Himself to His chosen witnesses, the Apostles, He appeared first to these women, or at least to one of them - namely, Mary Magdalene. Now, it would be very natural for a husband in the resurrection to appear first to his own dear wives, and afterwards show himself to his other friends. If all the acts of Jesus were written, we no doubt should learn that these beloved women were his wives. (Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 159)
“We say it was Jesus Christ who was married, to be brought into the relation whereby he could see his seed, before He was crucified. “Has he indeed passed by the nature of angels, and taken upon himself the seed of Abraham, to die without leaving a seed to bear his name on the earth?” No. But when the secret is fully out, the seed of the blessed shall be gathered in, in the last days; and he who has not the blood of Abraham flowing in his veins, who has not one particle of the Saviour’s in him, I am afraid is a stereotyped Gentile, who will be left out and not be gathered in the last days; for I tell you it is the chosen of God, the seed of the blessed, that shall be gathered.”
(Apostle Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses 2:82)
2) Jesus and the apostles were persecuted and killed for being polygamists.
“The grand reason of the burst of public sentiment in anathemas upon Christ and his disciples, causing his crucifixion, was evidently based upon polygamy, according to the testimony of the philosophers who rose in that age. A belief in the doctrine of a plurality of wives caused the persecution of Jesus and his followers. We might almost think they were Mormons."
(Prophet Jedediah M. Grant, Journal of Discourses, Vol.1, p.346, August 7, 1853)
3) Early Mormon leaders were descendents of Christ.
Joseph Smith was the first to reveal this teaching, when he informed the plural wife of Apostle Judge Adams, that the Apostle “was a literal descendant of Jesus Christ.” (Oliver B. Huntington Journal, p. 259)
Prophet Lorenzo Snow, and his counselor George Q. Cannon, later declared this doctrine publicly:
President George Q. Cannon also spoke … he said, "There are those in this audience who are descendants of the old Twelve Apostles - and shall I say it, yes, descendants of the Saviour Himself. His seed is represented in this body of men.
Following Pres. Cannon, President Snow arose and said that what Bro. Cannon had stated respecting the literal descendants among this company of the old apostles and the Saviour himself is true - the Saviour’s seed is represented in this body of men. (Journal of Pres. Rudger Clawson, pp. 374-375)
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blueadept
Guest
I totally agree that LDS believe Jesus was married and had children. I remember my youngest daughter (step) asking if Jesus was married and had children at the dinner table and my wife (LDS) explaining all about it. I was having a hard time keeping my mouth shut. Since I was the only Catholic at the table at the time, I managed to keep quiet but I really wanted to leave.
Oh well, I kept trying to convince myself that it wasn’t important enough of a topic to battle over.
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paul_barlow
Guest
please show me lds doctrine that christ was married. it maybe that some members say it but thats just like some catholics saying something that is not taught.
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arieh0310
Guest
paul barlow:
It seems Mormons are moving more and more towards Sola Scriptura. Doesn’t “prophets, seers and revelators” mean anything anymore to the LDS?
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majick275
Guest
The members who taught this were Brigham Young, Lorenzo Snow (who were prophets at the time), Orson Pratt, Orson Hyde, Jedediah Grant (Apostles at the time) and George Q. Cannon (counselor in the first presidency)
Paul Dupre’s post gives the specific references.
Think about it logically though(from LDS perspective) Jesus was baptized because even for him it is a necessary ordinance. The Sealing ordinance is required for maximum exaltation Thus Jesus would need to be married (to be sealed). Marriage is for procreation thus he would have children.
I don’t believe that, Catholics don’t believe it but LDS taught it and have never denied it.
Paul Dupre’s post gives the specific references.
Think about it logically though(from LDS perspective) Jesus was baptized because even for him it is a necessary ordinance. The Sealing ordinance is required for maximum exaltation Thus Jesus would need to be married (to be sealed). Marriage is for procreation thus he would have children.
I don’t believe that, Catholics don’t believe it but LDS taught it and have never denied it.
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Mom_of_5
Guest
Paul D. gave good proof of the LDS beliefs. Now, once again you can say that they are not “official”. Are you saying that these great men of the LDS church speak falsely? I quote McConkie quite a bit and am often told that he is not a profit. Bruce McConkie’s book is very much in the LDS bookstore and takes up a lot of room on the shelves for someone who is not considered knowledgeable about the LDS faith. So, please give us an updated book that tells what you (LDS) used to believe but don’t anymore and what is church doctrine now so that we will no longer be mis-led. Lets not play guessing games here. Truth is truth.
Love and peace
Mom of 5
Love and peace
Mom of 5
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PaulDupre
Guest
paul barlow:
It’s not just “some members”. It is your “prophets, seers and revelators” who have been teaching it since the days of Joseph Smith. See my post #10 above.
You really need to learn more about your church, its history and its doctrines. There is so much you don’t know.
God bless you,
Paul
Paul,
It’s not just “some members”. It is your “prophets, seers and revelators” who have been teaching it since the days of Joseph Smith. See my post #10 above.
You really need to learn more about your church, its history and its doctrines. There is so much you don’t know.
God bless you,
Paul
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PaulDupre
Guest
Of course, we all understand that Jesus being married is not “current official Mormon doctrine”. That is not the real issue.
The issue is that in every generation, LDS leaders have made pronouncements which, in that generation, are accepted as prophetic utterances. The teachings are believed by the faithful, who believe that their prophet is in direct communication with Jesus and will never lead them astray.
Hence, those in Brigham Young’s time believed that polygamy was essential to achieving exhaltation.
The faithful in President Grant’s time believed that Jesus was married and sired children.
Those general authorities believed themselves to be direct descendants of Jesus because their prophet told them so.
The faithful in JF Smith’s time believed that blacks were spiritually inferior because they were not valiant in the pre-existence.
All of these teachings, believed by entire generations of Mormons,
have been refuted by later prophets. All of those prior generations of Mormons believed false doctrine taught by prophets who were, in retrospect, speaking only their own “speculations” and “opinions”.
The question that must come to the mind of every reasonable Mormon now is “Which of the teachings of David McKay, Spencer Kimball, Ezra Benson and Gordon Hinckley (the prophets of our lifetime) that I have believed will be refuted by later prophets?”
Paul
The issue is that in every generation, LDS leaders have made pronouncements which, in that generation, are accepted as prophetic utterances. The teachings are believed by the faithful, who believe that their prophet is in direct communication with Jesus and will never lead them astray.
Hence, those in Brigham Young’s time believed that polygamy was essential to achieving exhaltation.
The faithful in President Grant’s time believed that Jesus was married and sired children.
Those general authorities believed themselves to be direct descendants of Jesus because their prophet told them so.
The faithful in JF Smith’s time believed that blacks were spiritually inferior because they were not valiant in the pre-existence.
All of these teachings, believed by entire generations of Mormons,
have been refuted by later prophets. All of those prior generations of Mormons believed false doctrine taught by prophets who were, in retrospect, speaking only their own “speculations” and “opinions”.
The question that must come to the mind of every reasonable Mormon now is “Which of the teachings of David McKay, Spencer Kimball, Ezra Benson and Gordon Hinckley (the prophets of our lifetime) that I have believed will be refuted by later prophets?”
Paul
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majick275
Guest
I’m not so sure that Jesus marriage, etc. is NOT current LDS doctrine. Previous statements by BY that aren’t doctrine have been “corrected” by later prophets. (Adam-God,etc.) This is a teaching that to the best of my knowledge has never been refuted by later LDS prophets. It just isn’t talked about much anymore.
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Casen
Guest
I personally believe Jesus was married but must admit there is not much evidence to support my belief in the scriptures (though there are a few that lead me to this conclusion) and I don’t worry too much about it. I don’t doubt that some or many church leaders share my belief but I’ve never heard it taught in any church meetings or found the doctrine in any lesson manuals. It wouldn’t surprise me if some church leaders shared their opinions on the subject as has been suggested but lacking a revelation on the topic I must conclude that it’s not official doctrine. I think if the topic were important to our salvation God would have issued a revelation and we’d find it covered in the Doctrine and Covenants or one of our other Standard Works.
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Jerusha
Guest
Tom, do LDS tend to believe the Da Vinci Code stuff more than people of other religions? It certainly does have a LDS “flavor” to it.
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