L
LAMBOFGODGIRLY
Guest
It may not be small, but it is at least equal,and God isn’t equal to anything.
Do LDS openly acknowledge that their religion teaches the belief of multiple gods?
- Status
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wmscott
Guest
I would like to expand on number 6 “baptize by proxy dead people so they too can become Mormons.” My mother (RIP) became a LDS a couple of years ago. One of the things she did as a LDS was to “baptize by proxy” my dead brother and sister, and I think also myself into the Mormon faith. This was done even though we had already been Baptized in a Christian Church. It is my understanding that there is only “ONE” Baptism, So why was there a need to do a baptism by proxy when there was already a valid Baptism in place. According to the Scriptures that I have read the following raises some questions regarding the practice of baptizing by proxy of the dead. Thanks in advance for any response and insight into the beliefs of LDS
Ephesians 4:5
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.
1 Corinthians 15:29
29 Otherwise what shall they do that are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not again at all? why are they then baptized for them?
Ephesians 4:5
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.
1 Corinthians 15:29
29 Otherwise what shall they do that are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not again at all? why are they then baptized for them?
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ParkerD
Guest
Hi, WM Scott,
It would not have been possible for your mother to have submitted your name for baptism. If she did that in error, then it was an invalid error on her part and not an error on anyone else’s part.
It sounds like she felt like your brother and sister had a likelihood to want the blessings of the Holy Spirit in their lives as spirits in the spirit world. Sometimes family members of the deceased have dreams or very strong impressions that their loved one who is deceased has asked them to have their baptism done for them. This is done in their behalf in an LDS temple, based on the information provided by the family member that the person had in fact died.
“One baptism” means “not a baptism of Paul or a baptism of Peter or a baptism of Bartholomew, but the specific baptismal covenant that Jesus Christ taught–the one true baptismal covenant with Him.” Paul wrote about that kind of an issue several times. He reiterated that the baptismal covenant was with Jesus Christ, and that there should be no divisions among the members based on who performed their baptism.
Have a wonderful day.
W
wmscott
Guest
I did not realize I was being unintelligent, just clueless of LDS beliefs.
OK about baptizing the dead, taken from Mormon.org “Perform saving ordinances (such as baptism) for themselves and for those who died without knowledge of the gospel of Jesus Christ.” So where in Sacred Scripture does it say to baptize the dead?
I am trying to grasp the concept of baptizing the dead.
This site also states that there are 13 articles of faith. do you have an official copy of it? and can you provide it?
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ParkerD
Guest
WM Scott,
I respect your intelligence and appreciate your questions.
Here are the 13 articles of faith:
THE ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
You could call any LDS mission office and have a copy mailed to you. Or, I could send you one or email a copy from an original, if we worked that out.
The scripture verse you cited from 1 Corinthians 15:29 does not seem to be chiding the people whom Paul is writing about who are “baptized for the dead.” When he asks “why are they then baptized for them?” it appears most logical that he is assuring the Corinthians that the resurrection is real and will happen, and that baptism for the dead is a logical thing to be done for those who had died who needed the ordinance of baptism.
This would be logical since Christ had taught Nicodemus, “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” It would also be consistent with 1 Peter 3:18 and 1 Peter 4:6 about Christ visiting the spirit world or spirit prison to teach the spirits of those who had died.
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dianaiad
Guest
“prozaic?”
Man, that is taking the fashionable enui a little too far for me. I see absolutely nothing prozaic about the Creator of all that is.
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dianaiad
Guest
I have thought fairly long about this matter of classification my self…and yeah. I would say that we are tipping over the henotheist line–but not because of the trinity–or perhaps, not only because of the Trinity. See the problem with the Trinity is this: while we accept all three members of the Godhead as ‘God,’ We pray to only One; God the Father, THROUGH His Son Jesus Christ. Each member of the Godhead has a purpose, and are equal…but God the Father is God the Father.
However, after speaking to many non-Christians (who really ARE non-Christians because they SAY they are…) The non-Christian viewpoint is that Orthodox Christians in general are polytheists (because of the Trinity") Mormons are henotheists, and that only the “Oneness” types, or Jehovah’s Witness types, are true monotheists.
They have a point–especially when you compare Christianity in general to Judaism and Islaam on the monotheist side, and Hinduism and other religions like that on the polytheist side. I’m not TERRIBLY familiar with Hinduism, but from what many of them have told me, they are frank polytheists, (and some call themselves henotheists) but even they eventually combine all their gods into a avatars, or facets of the One.
Most, if not all, of their faiths aim for them to become one WITH that One God, or Brahman.
What I find amazing is the commonality, at the core, of almost all the faiths I’ve come across–this yearning for the One God…
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AdrianP
Guest
Abraham saw God as 3 men:
Genesis 8:
" 1And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
3And said, My LORD, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant: "
Monk sees God as Holy Trinity , same as Abraham saw One God as 3 men , in following movie at 4:50:
[ame=“[URL]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcFHVhhwgq8&feature=channel_page[/URL]”]YouTube - Orthodox Miracles Part 2[/ame]
Some people have Problem trying to understand Holy Trinity:
[ame=“[URL]http://www.amazon.com/tag/christianity/forum/ref=cm_cd_pg_pg1?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx77WQHU8Y[/URL] S50Z&cdPage=1&cdSort=oldest&cdThread=Tx3SL6ITIY9PD CW&displayType=tagsDetail”]New Law is MUCH MUCH MUCH better than Old Law and Christianity is MUCH MUCH MUCH better than Judaism and is not supposed to follow Judaism - christianity Discussion Forum[/ame]
Lets suppose you are powerfull and that your arms can act distinctiv and that the arms have conscience but since you and your arms are connected you are one, having 3 conscience you are thre persons in one.
Old testament speaks about Holy Spirit acting idependently:
The Holy Spirit in the Old Testament
The Holy Spirit was present upon the earth even before the creation of man: Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters (Genesis 1:2). But we can see a distinct difference between the action of the Holy Spirit among the people of Israel in the Old Testament and the believers of the New Testament.
We see the action of the Holy Spirit in the lives of some of the people in the Old Testament. We see that the Spirit of the Lord “came upon” some of the central figures of the Old Testament at certain times. But this was an exceptional occurrence. The following scriptures are a few examples of this:
(Judges 3:10) The Spirit of the LORD came upon him, so that he became Israel’s judge and went to war. The LORD gave Cushan Rishathaim king of Aram into the hands of Othniel, who overpowered him.
(Judges 6:34) Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Gideon, and he blew a trumpet, summoning the Abiezrites to follow him.
(Judges 14:6) The Spirit of the LORD came upon him in power so that he tore the lion apart with his bare hands as he might have torn a young goat. But he told neither his father nor his mother what he had done.
(1 Samuel 10:6) The Spirit of the LORD will come upon you in power, and you will prophesy with them; and you will be changed into a different person.
(1 Samuel 16:13) So Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the presence of his brothers, and from that day on the Spirit of the LORD came upon David in power. Samuel then went to Ramah.
(Ezekiel 11:5) Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon me, and he told me to say: "This is what the LORD says: That is what you are saying, O house of Israel, but I know what is going through your mind.
When Moses grew tired of leading the people of Israel, God told him to gather together 70 elders of the people. God said that He would take some of the anointing of the Holy Spirit that was upon Moses and place it upon the 70 elders (Numbers 11:17). When the Holy Spirit came upon the elders, they prophesied. Even two men in the camp that did not come out to the meeting tent began to prophesy. When the people came to Moses, they complained that the two mean were prophesying in the camp. But Moses replied, “Are you jealous for my sake? I wish that all the Lord’s people were prophets and that the LORD would put his Spirit on them!” Numbers 11:29
Moses looked forward to the time when all of the people of God could receive this anointing of the Holy Spirit. Joel prophesied that it would happen. Peter repeated the prophecy of Joel on the day of Pentecost, when God fulfilled His promise:
(Acts 2:16-18) No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: {17} "'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. {18} Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.
In your baptism, God made His home in you. On that day, God filled you with His Holy Spirit. That is why Paul writes,
(1 Corinthians 3:16) Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you?
Scripture teaches us that through faith in Jesus Christ you be come a child of God, a new creation. As God’s child, you inherit the kingdom of God. The first installment in receiving the kingdom of God, is receiving the Holy Spirit:
(Ephesians 1:13-14) And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, {14} who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession–to the praise of his glory.
Studying the Scriptures that show how the Holy Spirit worked among God’s people will help you to better understand the ways in which the Holy Spirit will work in your life. Open to the power of the Holy Spirit. Give Him permission to move in power in your life.
While Trinitarian concepts are more explicitly laid out in the New Testament, they are implicitly revealed in the Old Testament. Clear intimations of Trinitarian concepts in the Hebrew Bible include:
Genesis 8:
" 1And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
3And said, My LORD, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant: "
Monk sees God as Holy Trinity , same as Abraham saw One God as 3 men , in following movie at 4:50:
[ame=“[URL]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcFHVhhwgq8&feature=channel_page[/URL]”]YouTube - Orthodox Miracles Part 2[/ame]
Some people have Problem trying to understand Holy Trinity:
[ame=“[URL]http://www.amazon.com/tag/christianity/forum/ref=cm_cd_pg_pg1?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx77WQHU8Y[/URL] S50Z&cdPage=1&cdSort=oldest&cdThread=Tx3SL6ITIY9PD CW&displayType=tagsDetail”]New Law is MUCH MUCH MUCH better than Old Law and Christianity is MUCH MUCH MUCH better than Judaism and is not supposed to follow Judaism - christianity Discussion Forum[/ame]
Lets suppose you are powerfull and that your arms can act distinctiv and that the arms have conscience but since you and your arms are connected you are one, having 3 conscience you are thre persons in one.
Old testament speaks about Holy Spirit acting idependently:
The Holy Spirit in the Old Testament
The Holy Spirit was present upon the earth even before the creation of man: Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters (Genesis 1:2). But we can see a distinct difference between the action of the Holy Spirit among the people of Israel in the Old Testament and the believers of the New Testament.
We see the action of the Holy Spirit in the lives of some of the people in the Old Testament. We see that the Spirit of the Lord “came upon” some of the central figures of the Old Testament at certain times. But this was an exceptional occurrence. The following scriptures are a few examples of this:
(Judges 3:10) The Spirit of the LORD came upon him, so that he became Israel’s judge and went to war. The LORD gave Cushan Rishathaim king of Aram into the hands of Othniel, who overpowered him.
(Judges 6:34) Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Gideon, and he blew a trumpet, summoning the Abiezrites to follow him.
(Judges 14:6) The Spirit of the LORD came upon him in power so that he tore the lion apart with his bare hands as he might have torn a young goat. But he told neither his father nor his mother what he had done.
(1 Samuel 10:6) The Spirit of the LORD will come upon you in power, and you will prophesy with them; and you will be changed into a different person.
(1 Samuel 16:13) So Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the presence of his brothers, and from that day on the Spirit of the LORD came upon David in power. Samuel then went to Ramah.
(Ezekiel 11:5) Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon me, and he told me to say: "This is what the LORD says: That is what you are saying, O house of Israel, but I know what is going through your mind.
When Moses grew tired of leading the people of Israel, God told him to gather together 70 elders of the people. God said that He would take some of the anointing of the Holy Spirit that was upon Moses and place it upon the 70 elders (Numbers 11:17). When the Holy Spirit came upon the elders, they prophesied. Even two men in the camp that did not come out to the meeting tent began to prophesy. When the people came to Moses, they complained that the two mean were prophesying in the camp. But Moses replied, “Are you jealous for my sake? I wish that all the Lord’s people were prophets and that the LORD would put his Spirit on them!” Numbers 11:29
Moses looked forward to the time when all of the people of God could receive this anointing of the Holy Spirit. Joel prophesied that it would happen. Peter repeated the prophecy of Joel on the day of Pentecost, when God fulfilled His promise:
(Acts 2:16-18) No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: {17} "'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. {18} Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.
In your baptism, God made His home in you. On that day, God filled you with His Holy Spirit. That is why Paul writes,
(1 Corinthians 3:16) Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you?
Scripture teaches us that through faith in Jesus Christ you be come a child of God, a new creation. As God’s child, you inherit the kingdom of God. The first installment in receiving the kingdom of God, is receiving the Holy Spirit:
(Ephesians 1:13-14) And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, {14} who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession–to the praise of his glory.
Studying the Scriptures that show how the Holy Spirit worked among God’s people will help you to better understand the ways in which the Holy Spirit will work in your life. Open to the power of the Holy Spirit. Give Him permission to move in power in your life.
While Trinitarian concepts are more explicitly laid out in the New Testament, they are implicitly revealed in the Old Testament. Clear intimations of Trinitarian concepts in the Hebrew Bible include:
A
AdrianP
Guest
- The use of plural forms.
The plural form for “Lord” used frequently in the Old Testament:'adonai (“Lord,” literally, “my Masters”). The vowel in the last syllable of 'adonai was apparently lengthened by rabbis in the post-New Testament period. This is thought to have been done to sharpen the distinction between earthly lords and the Lord God.
The Old Testament had a singular term for God, Eloah, which they occasionally used, but the vast majority of the time the plural form of God, Elohim, is used throughout the Old Testament. Had there been only be two persons within God, the Hebrews could have used a dual form Elohiayim, which was typically (although not always) used of things that occured in pairs.
- Usage of “one” in a composite sense.
- Theophanies, where Christ appears in the form of the “Angel (or Messenger) of the Lord.”
The Old Testament presents striking examples of a Being who, although He appears in the form of a man, acts and speaks like God and is referred to as God. Mysteriously, He is both identified as God and distinguished from God. We find this in passages such as Genesis 16:7-13; 18-19; 22:11-18; Exodus 3:2-6; 23:20-23; Judges 6:11-14, 20-22; 13:21-23). Note also how Zechariah 12:8 equates God and the Angel of the Lord. These Theophanies were prepartory for the incarnation in that they anticipated the coming of a Heavenly Visitor who would one day be both truly God and man. - The “Son” passages:
Proverbs 30:4
Isaiah 9:6 He is a son and child, but also the “mighty God.”
Psalm 2:7-12 (although the translation of “son” in verse 12 can be disputed) This Psalm describes a Son-King who receives the nations as His inheritance.
Daniel 7:13-14 This passage forms the background behind Christ’s use of the Messianic title “Son of Man.” Note that the contexts of Psalm 2 and Daniel 7 have identical strands of thought: the inheriting of all the kingdoms of the earth. The word “Son of Man” does not here mean “a mortal man”–one from among the “sons of men.” The point here is not that the Person is perfectly human. The significance of the title "Son of Man’ in this passage is fourfold:
His exalted personality as the One who comes from heaven and opposes the beastly human powers, which come from earth (Daniel 7:3)
His advent in conjunction with the reappearance of the theophanic glory cloud (7:13),
His free access to the ‘One who is an ancient of days’ (God the Father, 7:13), and
His universal and everlasting reign (7:14). (J. B. Payne, Theology of the Older Testament, p. 265.)
- The use of pronouns suggesting more than one Person within God.
The Angel of the Lord speaking, uses both “from Me” and “fearer of God” in referring to the same entity (Genesis 22:12).
- Passages that identify two Beings as God or LORD (YHWH).
Psalm 45:6-7 (God referring to Another as “God”)
Zechariah 3:1-2 (YHWH calling upon YHWH: “And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan”
- The Holy Spirit is linked with God and given attributes of personality.
How Protestant Christians can be helped to come home to Orthodox Church
[ame=“[URL]http://www.amazon.com/tag/christianity/forum/ref=cm_cd_ef_tft_tp?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx77WQH[/URL] U8YS50Z&cdThread=Tx1K9WZEE21GSCU&displayType=tagsD etail”]How Protestants can be helped to come home to Orthodox Church - Christianity Discussion Forum[/ame]
A
AdrianP
Guest
This gives an idea:
"
If you are a Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex-monk of the Catholic Church, in the year 1517.
If you belong to the Church of England, your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the Pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to re-marry.
If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded by John Knox in Scotland in the year 1560.
If you are a Congregationalist, your religion was originated by Robert Brown in Holland in 1582.
If you are Protestant Episcopalian, your religion was an offshoot of the Church of England, founded by Samuel Senbury in the American colonies in the 17th century.
If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1606.
If you are of the Dutch Reformed Church, you recognize Michelis Jones as founder because he originated your religion in New York in 1628.
If you are a Methodist, your religion was founded by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1774.
If you are a Mormon (Latter Day Saints), Joseph Smith started your religion in Palmyra, New York, in 1829.
If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.
If you are Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year in which your religion was born and to Mary Baker Eddy as its founder.
If you belong to one of the religious organizations known as “Church of the Nazarene, Pentecostal Gospel,” “Holiness Church,” or “Jehovah’s Witnesses,” your religion is one of the hundreds of new sects founded by men within the past hundred years.
If you are ORTHODOX Christian, your religion was founded in the year 33 by Jesus Christ, the Son of God. It has not changed since that time. Our church is now almost 2,000 years old. And it is for this reason, that Orthodoxy, the Church of the Apostles and the Fathers is considered the true “one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.” This is the greatest legacy that we can pass on to the young people of the new millennium."
"
If you belong to the Church of England, your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the Pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to re-marry.
If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded by John Knox in Scotland in the year 1560.
If you are a Congregationalist, your religion was originated by Robert Brown in Holland in 1582.
If you are Protestant Episcopalian, your religion was an offshoot of the Church of England, founded by Samuel Senbury in the American colonies in the 17th century.
If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1606.
If you are of the Dutch Reformed Church, you recognize Michelis Jones as founder because he originated your religion in New York in 1628.
If you are a Methodist, your religion was founded by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1774.
If you are a Mormon (Latter Day Saints), Joseph Smith started your religion in Palmyra, New York, in 1829.
If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.
If you are Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year in which your religion was born and to Mary Baker Eddy as its founder.
If you belong to one of the religious organizations known as “Church of the Nazarene, Pentecostal Gospel,” “Holiness Church,” or “Jehovah’s Witnesses,” your religion is one of the hundreds of new sects founded by men within the past hundred years.
If you are ORTHODOX Christian, your religion was founded in the year 33 by Jesus Christ, the Son of God. It has not changed since that time. Our church is now almost 2,000 years old. And it is for this reason, that Orthodoxy, the Church of the Apostles and the Fathers is considered the true “one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.” This is the greatest legacy that we can pass on to the young people of the new millennium."
Stephen168
New member
I agree, but to answer the OP’s question it seems:
One mormon denies it.
One admits it
One denies it, because they have the three-in-one god head like Christians
One admits it, but wants to insist Christians also believe in more than one god.
Seems like they are all over the map on this.
A
AdrianP
Guest
Even if it is written in OLD TESTAMENTS, LIKE IN THEIR FACE, they cannot comprehend it.
Who is the Shield of Abraham?
Genesis 15
1Some time after these events, this word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision: “Fear not, Abram! I am your shield; I will make your reward very great.”
Who is Word of the Lord?
"John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.
6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.**
10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[d] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ " 16From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,[e][f]who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.
John the Baptist Denies Being the Christ
19Now this was John’s testimony when the Jews of Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was. 20He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, “I am not the Christ.[g]”
21They asked him, “Then who are you? Are you Elijah?”
He said, “I am not.”
“Are you the Prophet?”
He answered, “No.”
22Finally they said, “Who are you? Give us an answer to take back to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?”
23John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, "I am the voice of one calling in the desert, ‘Make straight the way for the Lord.’ "[h]
24Now some Pharisees who had been sent 25questioned him, “Why then do you baptize if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?”
26"I baptize with* water," John replied, “but among you stands one you do not know. 27He is the one who comes after me, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.”
28This all happened at Bethany on the other side of the Jordan, where John was baptizing.
Jesus the Lamb of God
29The next day John saw **Jesus ***coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ 31I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.” "
If they would see that Shield of Abraham is Jesus they will stop fighting Christianity and start joining the Orthodox Church.**
Who is the Shield of Abraham?
Genesis 15
1Some time after these events, this word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision: “Fear not, Abram! I am your shield; I will make your reward very great.”
Who is Word of the Lord?
"John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.
6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.**
10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[d] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ " 16From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,[e][f]who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.
John the Baptist Denies Being the Christ
19Now this was John’s testimony when the Jews of Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was. 20He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, “I am not the Christ.[g]”
21They asked him, “Then who are you? Are you Elijah?”
He said, “I am not.”
“Are you the Prophet?”
He answered, “No.”
22Finally they said, “Who are you? Give us an answer to take back to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?”
23John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, "I am the voice of one calling in the desert, ‘Make straight the way for the Lord.’ "[h]
24Now some Pharisees who had been sent 25questioned him, “Why then do you baptize if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?”
26"I baptize with* water," John replied, “but among you stands one you do not know. 27He is the one who comes after me, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.”
28This all happened at Bethany on the other side of the Jordan, where John was baptizing.
Jesus the Lamb of God
29The next day John saw **Jesus ***coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ 31I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.” "
If they would see that Shield of Abraham is Jesus they will stop fighting Christianity and start joining the Orthodox Church.**
D
dianaiad
Guest
I just read Parker’s explaination of 1 and 3…and I can’t but agree with him on them. I also agree with his instant dismissal of an ex-Mormon pretending to be LDS for the purpose of slamming us.
See, here’s the thing from ME. I have this rule that I never, ever break, and it is because of just the sort of thing you are running into; there is no ex-member of ANY faith that will present his old faith in a fair, true or objective manner. If he could do that, he wouldn’t be an 'ex-member." Of ANY faith. This goes for ex-Mormons, ex-Catholics, ex-whatever. If they could be fair and unbiased, they would still be believers. Something went wrong, either with the faith or with the member, and either way the member has NO reason to present his old faith in a truthful, must less positive, way.
The only thing we don’t know about the stuff ex’s and anti’s say is exactly where and how bad the lying is going to be.
Now if you get all your information from the MEMBERS of a faith, you know that they will also be biased; they’d better be; after all, if they did NOT think that their faith was the one, the true, the salvific solution to everything, they shouldn’t be members. They should go look for the faith that they CAN think this of.
So you know the bias. You know the direction it goes…but more importantly, you know that members aren’t going to lie to you about what they believe. They may couch it in terms that they think will make it more acceptable to you, but they won’t lie–they know that if they do, those lies will come back to bite them. Now, they will give you what THEY believe, and that might not march completely with official doctrine (I can’t tell you how many Catholics I"ve run into that do this to me) but that doesn’t matter. Religious faith is very personal, and whether their beliefs run a bit sideways to official belief, it’s still their beliefs–and come a lot closer to the reality of official whatever-it-is than something an anti- will tell you.
And ex-members who go out of their way to write publications and websites purporting to tell you what their old faith REALLY believes are anti’s, every one. Especially when their sites are put up to ‘correct’ what the official sites of the church they left claim.
My suggestion to you, and it is a very strong one, is to go to lds.org. Look up ‘basic beliefs.’ …explore them a little, and BELIEVE them. That is, believe that what is said there is really, truely, what we really, truely, do believe. I promise.
Now, as to your #6, which Parker got too impatient to deal with…and thank you, Parker for doing such a good job with 1 and 3…
We reserve to our temples that pageantry and deep symbolism that as Catholics you are very used to in the Mass. Just as about everything you see, do, sing and experience during the Mass has many levels of spiritual meaning, so does everything we do, see and experience in the Temple. Yes, there are handshakes. We wear liturgical clothing. We have set ceremonies. Everything we do is pretty much the same thing we did the last time, and every time we go we learn something new from the experience. Sound familiar to you?
The closest thing I can possibly come up with for a comparison is…for us, going to the Temple would be like a priest celebrating the mass; there isn’t a ‘congregation’ as such; we are all celebrants. I admit, that’s a pretty bad analogy, so don’t take it very far, but it’s as close as I can come to the FEELING of it, I think. And yes, having been to a Mass and having attended the Temple, the ceremonies are not even close to comparible–except for that feeling of deep symbolism and involvement one gets in those symbols. Both are deeply, richly, intensely, symbolic ritualistic events.
And yes, we do proxy work for the dead, so that they may, IF they so choose, accept the gospel of Jesus Christ as we believe it to be. We believe that it is absolutely and ultimately their choice, however.
D
dianaiad
Guest
We probably are, in terms of rhetoric and actual words. …but I did my own counting and didn’t come up with the same group you did.
As for me, who cares what they call us…if that’s what we actually are, technically–as long as we are correct?
It’s like the “Mormons are/are not Christian” thing. In case you haven’t noticed, I’m rather a stickler for precise language, which is why I have finally come down on the idea that Mormons are henotheists leaning over the monotheist fence, Orthodox Christians are polytheists calling themselves monotheists but not really coming all THAT close, Jews and Muslims really ARE monotheists, and Hindus are polytheists, henotheists and monotheists, depending on who (or Who) they are talking about at the time.
And Mormons are Christians, as are all who put Jesus of Nazareth, called Christ, at the center of their faith–no matter how many people think they’re nuts.
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Interesting. I did a quick Wiki check (the usual disclaimers and guffaws apply):We probably are, in terms of rhetoric and actual words. …but I did my own counting and didn’t come up with the same group you did.
As for me, who cares what they call us…if that’s what we actually are, technically–as long as we are correct?
It’s like the “Mormons are/are not Christian” thing. In case you haven’t noticed, I’m rather a stickler for precise language, which is why I have finally come down on the idea that Mormons are henotheists leaning over the monotheist fence, Orthodox Christians are polytheists calling themselves monotheists but not really coming all THAT close, Jews and Muslims really ARE monotheists, and Hindus are polytheists, henotheists and monotheists, depending on who (or Who) they are talking about at the time.
And Mormons are Christians, as are all who put Jesus of Nazareth, called Christ, at the center of their faith–no matter how many people think they’re nuts.
Henotheism (Greek εἷς θεός heis theos “one god”) is a term coined by Max Müller, to mean worshiping a single god while accepting the existence or possible existence of other deities.%between%
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (colloquially known as the LDS Church or Mormon church) considers the members of the Christian Godhead as three distinct beings, where God the Father is supreme, yet all three beings are defined collectively as “God”. The Church teaches the worship of one god, which belief is most easily described as worshiping God the Father through the conduit of the Son, Jesus Christ, as led by the Holy Ghost. Whereas other Christians speak of “One God in Three Persons”, LDS scripture speaks instead of three persons in one god. See the Book of Mormon’s Mosiah 15:4 (“they are one God”), and LDS interpretation of John 17:11[10] (Jesus asks the Father in prayer that his disciples “may be one, as we are”).
Jehovah’s Witnesses are viewed as henotheistic because they worship the god Jehovah while viewing Satan as a lesser god. Satan in particular is referred to as “god of this system of things”, that is, the invisible spirit having control over governments and other institutions of the secular and religious world, a position he has held since Adam and Eve’s defection in Eden, with its implicit change of allegiance from God (Jehovah) to Satan. Jesus is referenced as sitting at the right hand of God, assisting in all acts of Creation aside from his own, hence his status as “only begotten” (cf. John 1:14, 18). It should be noted that no “god” aside from Jehovah is an appropriate object of worship for Jehovah’s Witnesses. Jesus alone is accepted as an intercessor between God and man, but even he is not worshiped as such. Thus, the belief system may more appropriately be described as monolatristic rather than henotheistic, though both appellations would likely be disputed by adherents.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Whoa…are you saying that someone who has left the Mormon Church cannot faithfully represent the true teaching of the LDS, and then turn around and make a convincing case against it based upon his or her new beliefs?
Again, are former members of the Church not able to quote or reproduce photocopies of Church documents to prove that the Apostles in Utah have said THIS or THAT in the past even when newer Church documents have expunged these passages?
That seems a bit of a stretch, Dianaiad.
Just out of curiosity, is there any reference to or representation of a Protestant or Catholic clergyman in any of your ceremonies?
Dianaiad-
Your posts are always thoughtful and I appreciate learning from them…
Are you saying that you are baptized for these dead people but they have a choice as to whether they accept this baptism or not?
W
wmscott
Guest
Thanks for the response and explanations, what I am having trouble with is if my brother and sister were baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit (Trinitarian baptism), why was there a need for another baptism? I do not understand the concept of a second baptism and by proxy for the dead. Thanks for your patience.
W
wmscott
Guest
Thanks for the articles of faith. Just an observation, it would make research a little easier if mormon.org would make the articles visible without having to have someone call on you. However, I do thank you for posting them.
W
wmscott
Guest
Thanks for taking the time to respond, although I am still clueless of LDS beliefs, I have been able to learn a few new things today. I would like to ask another question, I have heard that not anyone can walk into an LDS service at a temple. I am not sure if this is phrased correct. I am wondering if there are services that are closed or forbidden to outsiders, if so what is the reasons? Thanks
J
Jerusha
Guest
The most important reason is because they consider them to be sacred. Secondary to this is the fact that this would expose them to ridicule, because many of the temple ceremonies are bizarre. However, ask the google god, and make up your own mind on this. 
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