Do LDS openly acknowledge that their religion teaches the belief of multiple gods?

[scipio337]

Scipio,
You had used a word that was a put-down of women. It has to do with treating women as objects, as a possession. It came from your own mind, or you repeated what others have told you. I wasn’t saying you “hate women”. I was saying you used a word that has a connotation that either a marriage to one woman or to two women (in eternity, after this life) makes them a possession. I hope you understand that the LDS strongly disagree with that idea, as do I. Women are equal partners in the divinely-given institution of marriage. God had a plan in giving that relationship to humankind, and giving humankind family relationships.

Sorry, but I’m not one to call a duck a frog, and then convince myself is so.

Dictionary.com defines it as:

“A group of women sexual partners for one man”.

Was I wrong in that characterization? I think not. “Plural marriage” was, in fact, polygyny. Why wasn’t a women’s right to marry multiple men in God’s plan?

It never ceases to amaze me when I see LDS defend the indefensible: “It was corrent for that time”, regarding polygyny, the treatment of blacks, etc. It’s implicit in your “God had a plan in giving that relationship to humankind” justification.

 

[ParkerD]

To the general reader:

To get back on topic and relate to the previously discussed issue, here are some thoughts:

God ordained marriage as a divine institution. Procreation was a part of that in this life, but only a part and not the most important part. Consider women who, through no fault of their own, are unable to have birth children. Is that a punishment by God? No. Does that make them any less of a treasured child of God, with a divine purpose for their life including for their marriage? No. Adam received Eve as an “help meet” and an equal, one whom he was to “cleave unto.” Any word or connotation that relates to women as only for procreation or for the pleasure of a male, is a put-down of women and a put-down of the divine institution of marriage.

God ordained families as a divine institution also. Within families, parents learn far more lessons about unselfishness, about encouraging and allowing individuality while at the same time defining boundaries while children learn about consequences of their own choices and actions, than through any other relationship they will have. The couple also learn far more about unselfishness and communication through their marriage than through any other relationship outside of marriage.

What direction does marriage point, if lived within the divinely appointed way it was designed? It points straight towards heaven, toward revering and worshipping God as Heavenly Father and toward helping some of His children (the children born or adopted in a family setting) learn their own lessons of how to love Him and to worship Him and make good choices.

Parents are able to learn about unconditional love, while allowing the choices of their children and not forcing every decision to be made. God had so many purposes in instituting the family setting as the most important organization on earth where His spirit children can learn about the kind of love He has. This life is a progression for spirits who chose to come to this earth, not a pass/fail system that God created out of nothing in order to glorify Himself.

 

[scipio337]

Bravo on the subject change and obfuscation. Are you defending polygyny as something that doesn’t objectify women?

I don’t think I’m alone in the assesment that the practice of plural marriage did just that.

 

[zerinus]

As I originally stated, I know nothing of the LDS beliefs. Now these are just my opinions and I do not intend any disrespect. In the spirit of gaining knowledge of another religion, I hope I was respectful in my questioning.

I came with a question that listed what a LDS would consider as offensive and anti-LDS. Of all the sites that are maintained by ex-LDS the list was fairly consistent in their specific claims as to what LDS believes. Even though I found them to be alarming and farfetched, I still wanted to know if they were true or not. There was an initial knee jerk reaction to the list I provided, and I can understand. I went to the official LDS and Mormon sites and found something very different with a few points confirming the ex-LDS claims, such as baptism of the dead by proxy. A few of the answers were obviously dismissive and explained as “I can’t talk about that” or the like. I was satisfied with what was explained to me and was done with it.

Then this post hit me between the eyes, “bring those who qualify through gaining the full promised blessings of the Savior’s grace, to a position of being like the Savior in perfect love and in omniscience and omnipotence so they can share in that same joy“ and “Heavenly Father is not jealous or worried about “losing power or authority” by granting His power and authority and omnipotence to other spirits who prove themselves by virtue of their choices and their actions and desires” WHAT IN THE WORLD IS GOING ON HERE, Are you saying that a person can attain the same omnipotence as God?

Omnipotence –noun

1. the quality or state of being omnipotent.
2. (initial capital letter ) GOD.

omnipotent - adj.
Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful.

1. One having unlimited power or authority: the bureaucratic omnipotents.
2. Omnipotent God. Used with the.

Who are these people that can qualify? LDS? Are you saying that someone can come to be a God? Are you saying that God the Father can grant godship to others who prove themselves worthy?

I am floored by this post. These are your words and beliefs as a LDS. I am starting to wonder now if the ex-LDS have really have put out there what LDS really believe.

I am at a loss here, just blown away. Everything that I had came to understand, though limited about the LDS faith, has now been undone. May God have mercy on you. WOW

That passage by ParkerD does not accurately portray LDS doctrine of deification. Mormons do indeed believe that men can become gods, and hence there are many gods. And if you think that that is strange or unique to Mormonism, you are very much mistaken. That is what early Christians believed, and to this day it is an essential part of Eastern Orthodox theology. It is called theosis. If you Google for theosis, you will soon get the idea. It even gets a mention in Catholic theology, although it is not such a big thing in Catholicism as it is in the Orthodoxy. Here is a quote from the Catholic Catechism:

The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”: “For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.” (460)

This topic has been discussed in many threads on CAF, including this thread. Parker’s post made it sound like deification means we become gods by supplanting or becoming independent to God the Father or the Son. That is not what deification means in Mormonism. Deification is the theological definition of salvation. Deification = salvation. We become deified to by grace, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, and will forever remain subordinate and subservient to them, and continue to worship them as our God. Deification does not mean that we become independent of God the Father and the Son, and “set up on our own” as it were. That is not what it means. We become deified to be saved. Salvation means deification. And believe it or not, that is what the early Christians believed. It is a big subject, and many books have been written on it. I have written a couple of articles in Blog on this subject that you can read here and here.

 

[ParkerD]

To the general reader:

To get back on topic and relate to the previously discussed issue, here are some thoughts:

God ordained marriage as a divine institution. Procreation was a part of that in this life, but only a part and not the most important part. Consider women who, through no fault of their own, are unable to have birth children. Is that a punishment by God? No. Does that make them any less of a treasured child of God, with a divine purpose for their life including for their marriage? No. Adam received Eve as an “help meet” and an equal, one whom he was to “cleave unto.” Any word or connotation that relates to women as only for procreation or for the pleasure of a male, is a put-down of women and a put-down of the divine institution of marriage.

God ordained families as a divine institution also. Within families, parents learn far more lessons about unselfishness, about encouraging and allowing individuality while at the same time defining boundaries while children learn about consequences of their own choices and actions, than through any other relationship they will have. The couple also learn far more about unselfishness and communication through their marriage than through any other relationship outside of marriage.

What direction does marriage point, if lived within the divinely appointed way it was designed? It points straight towards heaven, toward revering and worshipping God as Heavenly Father and toward helping some of His children (the children born or adopted in a family setting) learn their own lessons of how to love Him and to worship Him and make good choices.

Parents are able to learn about unconditional love, while allowing the choices of their children and not forcing every decision to be made. God had so many purposes in instituting the family setting as the most important organization on earth where His spirit children can learn about the kind of love He has. This life is a progression for spirits who chose to come to this earth, not a pass/fail system that God created out of nothing in order to glorify Himself.

To the general reader:

I have been asked about the practice of plural marriage. I know about marriage to one wife, whom I love dearly with tremendous appreciation for both what I have learned from her and what I have received through our relationship and her kindness toward me, as well as deep love and gratitude for our children.

I know how I would have viewed plural marriage if I had been asked to practice that as part of an Abrahamic test of faith. I would have had the same view of marriage as I do now. But I can’t speak for the women or the men who lived by that limited practice, nor have I studied the subject because I have moved on from history and live in the present and the future, with its present and future challenges. God knows what is best for His children, and does what is best for them.

Here we are, living in the world He has given us for the present and the future to live in and grow in and have stewardship as His children. Marriage is a divinely given part of that stewardship, and it heads in the direction of learning more about His ways and His attributes.

 

[PaulDupre]

To the general reader:

If you have followed and been interested at all in the words “great city” in the Book of Mormon and want to get an idea of a population count related to those “cities”, then here is the word search for “tens of thousands” from the books of Alma, Helaman, or 3 Nephi:

Alma 56: 28
28 And also there were sent two thousand men unto us from the land of Zarahemla. And thus we were prepared with ten thousand men, and provisions for them, and also for their wives and their children.
Alma 60: 22
22 Yea, will ye sit in idleness while ye are surrounded with thousands of those, yea, and tens of thousands, who do also sit in idleness, while there are thousands round about in the borders of the land who are falling by the sword, yea, wounded and bleeding?

3 Ne. 3: 22
22 And it came to pass in the *seventeenth year, in the latter end of the year, the proclamation of Lachoneus had gone forth throughout all the face of the land, and they had taken their horses, and their chariots, and their cattle, and all their flocks, and their herds, and their grain, and all their substance, and did march forth by thousands and by tens of thousands, until they had all gone forth to the place which had been appointed that they should gather themselves together, to defend themselves against their enemies.

Please note also that Alma 60:22 contains a letter written by an army leader, Captain Moroni, to the government leader at Zarahemla where their government is centered, and that city has other cities that are within a proximity that is generally called the “land of Zarahemla”. Moroni writes about “tens of thousands” in the general “land of Zarahemla” which is comprised of several cities.

Those numbers do not refer to the populations of the cities, but rather to the number of soldiers fielded by the cities. Tens of thousands of soldiers implies many more tens of thousands of civilian men, women and children.

 

[ParkerD]

That passage by ParkerD does not accurately portray LDS doctrine of deification. Mormons do indeed believe that men can become gods, and hence there are many gods. And if you think that that is strange or unique to Mormonism, you are very much mistaken. That is what early Christians believed, and to this day it is an essential part of Eastern Orthodox theology. It is called theosis. If you Google for theosis, you will soon get the idea. It even gets a mention in Catholic theology, although it is not such a big thing in Catholicism as it is in the Orthodoxy. Here is a quote from the Catholic Catechism:

The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”: “For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.” (460)

This topic has been discussed in many threads on CAF, including this thread. Parker’s post made it sound like deification means we become gods by supplanting or becoming independent to God the Father or the Son. That is not what deification means in Mormonism. Deification is the theological definition of salvation. Deification = salvation. We become deified to by grace, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, and will forever remain subordinate and subservient to them, and continue to worship them as our God. Deification does not mean that we become independent of God the Father and the Son, and “set up on our own” as it were. That is not what it means. We become deified to be saved. Salvation means deification. And believe it or not, that is what the early Christians believed. It is a big subject, and many books have been written on it. I have written a couple of articles in Blog on this subject that you can read here and here.

Zerinus,
Thanks for clarifying. I appreciate all your additional insights, and I suppose if it came across that I was talking about “supplanting” then it needed to be clarified, since I totally agree with all you have written here. I appreciate your blog items on this topic also. Thanks!

 

[PaulDupre]

Just curious. Have you ever read “No man knows my history” by Fawn Brodie? She was a historian and niece of Pres. David O McKay? She had unfettered access to much of the early historical recorders of the church that others did not have.

Fascinating read.

I would recommend it to anyone.

Funny, but all the Mormons I have known consider “No Man Knows My History” to be an anti-Mormon book because it tells the (sometimes ugly) truth about Joseph Smith. Of course anyone who does that is villified by the Mormons.

But Fawn Brodie is better known for her biography of Thomas Jefferson. I read it a number of years ago, and it is possibly the best biography I have ever read.

 

[wmscott]

WM Scott,
Peace to you also. The truths I wrote about are straight from the Bible. Joseph Smith taught using the Bible, but that is neither here not there with respect to what John wrote and Paul wrote and the Savior taught. Those verses are in the Bible for all to see and read and think about.

Have a good day.

With all due respect, Yes, what you have posted is in the Bible, but as you stated “Joseph Smith taught using the Bible, but that is neither here nor there”, however this is precisely the point is it not? You are assuming that he infallible interpreted the Sacred Scriptures.

LDS say that God and Christ appeared to only him, somewhere in the woods in New York if I am not mistaken. Yet the LDS would have me believe that both God and Christ in all their glory appeared to J.S. alone, with no witnesses, and told him that for the last 1800 years or so Christians were abandoned by God and just waiting for J.S. to come along a set things right again.

This is contrary to Sacred Scripture and according to Sacred Scripture

Matthew16:18 says “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Therefore, in some way you are saying that for 1800 years the gates of hell did prevail against the Church.

In Luke 1:31-32 it says “He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob forever. 33 And of his kingdom there shall be no end.” Here again your assertions of J.S. being instructed to restore the Church 1800 years later is contrary to Sacred Scriptures.

The historical realities of Sacred Scripture is that there were boat loads of witnesses regarding Christ, and his presence here on earth both as a man and as a God. There was no one individual secluded somewhere in the woods, or desert in this case, coming forth with the concept of Christ and Christianity.

Ever hear the Satan, the great deceiver “masquerades as an angel of light”
You might want to consider 2 Corinthians 11:3-4, 13-15.

3 But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts may be corrupted from a sincere (and pure) commitment to Christ. 4 For if someone comes and preaches another Jesus than the one we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it well enough.

13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, who masquerade as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan masquerades as an angel of light. 15 So it is not strange that his ministers also masquerade as ministers of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

 

[zerinus]

I am sorry and I mean no disrespect, but I feel that you and the LDS faith have totally perverted the Sacred Scriptures. There is no way that anyone other than God can be omnipotent. It unsettles me to think that folks believe that they can become gods, equal to Christ, not a chance in all of eternity.

Deification does not mean that we will become “equal with Him” in that sense. He will always remain our Savior and Redeemer, and we will remain subordinate to Him, and continue to worship Him as our God. But we will share in His divinity. It is the same doctrine that is taught by Paul here:

Romans 8:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Joint-heirs means that we will inherit what He inherits, which means His divinity. That is the only thing He inherits that is worth inheriting. What else do you think He inherits, money in the bank? He inherits form the Father His Father’s divinity, which he shares with those whom he has saved and redeemed.

 

[joann1957]

**History tells us Joseph Smith was proven a false prophet many times over. How can any Mormon believe such falsehoods, when it defies every historic and anthropological kind of evidence. Not only does scientific evidence refute any kind of Book Of Mormon civilization, it give concrete evidence of a totally different civilization in its place. **

Jo Ann

 

[wmscott]

That passage by ParkerD does not accurately portray LDS doctrine of deification. Mormons do indeed believe that men can become gods, and hence there are many gods. And if you think that that is strange or unique to Mormonism, you are very much mistaken. That is what early Christians believed, and to this day it is an essential part of Eastern Orthodox theology. It is called theosis. If you Google for theosis, you will soon get the idea. It even gets a mention in Catholic theology, although it is not such a big thing in Catholicism as it is in the Orthodoxy. Here is a quote from the Catholic Catechism:

The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”: “For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.” (460) Can you direct me to where this is found in Sacred Scripture

This topic has been discussed in many threads on CAF, including this thread. Parker’s post made it sound like deification means we become gods by supplanting or becoming independent to God the Father or the Son. That is not what deification means in Mormonism. Deification is the theological definition of salvation. Deification = salvation. We become deified to by grace, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, and will forever remain subordinate and subservient to them, and continue to worship them as our God. Deification does not mean that we become independent of God the Father and the Son, and “set up on our own” as it were. That is not what it means. We become deified to be saved. Salvation means deification. And believe it or not, that is what the early Christians believed. It is a big subject, and many books have been written on it. I have written a couple of articles in Blog on this subject that you can read here and here.

 

[Marie5890]

**History tells us Joseph Smith was proven a false prophet many times over. How can any Mormon believe such falsehoods, when it defies every historic and anthropological kind of evidence. Not only does scientific evidence refute any kind of Book Of Mormon civilization, it give concrete evidence of a totally different civilization in its place. **

Jo Ann

I wonder that but I expect the Mormon apologists and leadership have altered or de-emphasied much of what I was taught when I was LDS.

Not sure how they deal with the mDNA science etc etc.

 

[zerinus]

With all due respect, Yes, what you have posted is in the Bible, but as you stated “Joseph Smith taught using the Bible, but that is neither here nor there”, however this is precisely the point is it not? You are assuming that he infallible interpreted the Sacred Scriptures.

LDS say that God and Christ appeared to only him, somewhere in the woods in New York if I am not mistaken. Yet the LDS would have me believe that both God and Christ in all their glory appeared to J.S. alone, with no witnesses, and told him that for the last 1800 years or so Christians were abandoned by God and just waiting for J.S. to come along a set things right again.

This is contrary to Sacred Scripture and according to Sacred Scripture

Matthew16:18 says “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Therefore, in some way you are saying that for 1800 years the gates of hell did prevail against the Church.

In Luke 1:31-32 it says “He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob forever. 33 And of his kingdom there shall be no end.” Here again your assertions of J.S. being instructed to restore the Church 1800 years later is contrary to Sacred Scriptures.

The historical realities of Sacred Scripture is that there were boat loads of witnesses regarding Christ, and his presence here on earth both as a man and as a God. There was no one individual secluded somewhere in the woods, or desert in this case, coming forth with the concept of Christ and Christianity.

Ever hear the Satan, the great deceiver “masquerades as an angel of light”
You might want to consider 2 Corinthians 11:3-4, 13-15.

3 But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts may be corrupted from a sincere (and pure) commitment to Christ. 4 For if someone comes and preaches another Jesus than the one we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it well enough.

13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, who masquerade as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan masquerades as an angel of light. 15 So it is not strange that his ministers also masquerade as ministers of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

Joseph Smith received his First Vision (where the Father and the Son appeared to him) when he was an obscure 14 year old boy wanting to know which church was right. That is not the point at which God commanded him to start the Church. That came many years later. When the time came for the Church to be organized, there were many divine manifestations and angelic visits which were witnessed by others. As for the Apostasy of the early Church, that is a different story that requires a different discussion. Let’s talk about one thing at a time, if you are serious about discussing Mormonism.

 

[wmscott]

Deification does not mean that we will become “equal with Him” in that sense. He will always remain our Savior and Redeemer, and we will remain subordinate to Him, and continue to worship Him as our God. But we will share in His divinity. It is the same doctrine that is taught by Paul here:

Romans 8:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Joint-heirs means that we will inherit what He inherits, which means His divinity. That is the only thing He inherits that is worth inheriting. What else do you think He inherits, money in the bank? He inherits form the Father His Father’s divinity, which he shares with those whom he has saved and redeemed.

Are you saying you become a devine entity when you die?

 

[wmscott]

Joseph Smith received his First Vision (where the Father and the Son appeared to him) when he was an obscure 14 year old boy wanting to know which church was right. That is not the point at which God commanded him to start the Church. That came many years later. When the time came for the Church to be organized, there were many divine manifestations and angelic visits which were witnessed by others. As for the Apostasy of the early Church, that is a different story that requires a different discussion. Let’s talk about one thing at a time, if you are serious about discussing Mormonism.

I think I have been serious up to this point, do you see any indications to the contrary?

 

[wmscott]

I wonder that but I expect the Mormon apologists and leadership have altered or de-emphasied much of what I was taught when I was LDS.

Not sure how they deal with the mDNA science etc etc.

Marie you were on the inside of LDS, am I missing something here or is LDS something other than a Christian religion. Just curious.

 

[zerinus]

Can you direct me to where this is found in Sacred Scripture

That was a quote from the Catholic Catechism my friend. I gave you the reference number for it. It was also quoted and discussed in that thread on CAF that I had linked to. You simply do not know the theology of your own religion.

 

[wmscott]

That was a quote from the Catholic Catechism my friend. I gave you the reference number for it. It was also quoted and discussed in that thread on CAF that I had linked to. You simply do not know the theology of your own religion.

Thanks I will look it up.

 

[zerinus]

Are you saying you become a devine entity when you die?

We become deified when we become saved in the celestial kingdom of God. That comes after the resurrection of the dead.