Do LDS Prophets Really Talk To God?

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Mormon_Cultist said:
If I called myself a pope, would you accept me as such?
the question is essentially the same.
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If I called myself the President of the U.S. does it make me the president? Would you accept me as the president based merely on a verbal claim? So no, my question posed to you, essentially is NOT the same.
 
This series of questions directly pertaining to prophets has yet to be answered by any LDS posters. I will post it on this thread too, as it is pertinent to the topic.

To any Mormon on here who wishes to answer (I posted it on another thread as well, but it remains unanswered) - I think it fits with the general idea of this thread, and will really help to anchor all these discussions of Mormonism on a firmer foundation instead of an endless stream of dodges and circular arguments…Now:

You accept that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, and all that followed from him. Now, what are the specific reasons why you do not accept the following the prophets who also claim divine revelation? What are your criteria for not accepting them?
  1. Mohammed and the Qur’an
    -Why is he not credible? The Qur’an claims to be the truth in its very pages, just as your scriptures do. Why are they not true? How do we know that Mohammed is not God’s final messenger to mankind?
  2. Ellen G. White
    -Why is she not credible?> She too claims that she had visions of God and heaven, and even the end of the world. She started her own movement, the Seventh-Day Adventists. Why are they wrong, and how do you know? Why are you not a member of the SDA church that claims to be the remnant church of Christ on earth?
  3. Herbert W. Armstrong
    -Started the Worldwide Church of God movement and claimed to be a prophet, indeed, a kind of latter-day Elijah. Why are his prophecies wrong? Why is the Church of God movement not the true church? Why are you not a believer in Armstrong’s prophecies and teachings?
  4. George Fox
    -Founded the Quaker movement. How do you know that his mystical experiences were erroneous? Why are you not a Quaker?
  5. Charles Taze Russell
    -Started the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Claimed to be a mouthpiece for Christ. Why are you not JW, as they decried the doctrine of the Trinity as well, and claimed to be the true church too? On what grounds do you reject Russell and his movement?
  6. Emanuel Swedenborg
    Esoteric visionary, theologian, and mystic who claimed all sorts of new teachings. Why is he not credible? Why are you not a member of the Swedenborgian church? Are his visions false, and if so, how do you know?
Also, what do you think of the LDS groups that split from the main church? Why do you not follow any of their teachings, as some of them have prophets still claiming to speak to God, apostles, and the like. Why are they not credible, specifically? What criteria do you use to evaluate why they are not correct and your church is?
 
Mormon_Cultist said:
If I called myself a pope, would you accept me as such?
the question is essentially the same.
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Ah…so you are a picker and chooser of folks who claim to have visits from God. What makes her story less believable than Joseph’s 9 versions?
 
TexanKnight said:
Ah…so you are a picker and chooser of folks who claim to have visits from God. What makes her story less believable than Joseph’s 9 versions?
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Exactly! I guess he has the ability to determine who truly is and who truly is NOT a prophet?
 
…and still waiting for an answer to my series of questions. Still - not one LDS member has actually even remotely attempted to answer the questions I just posted above on this thread and on others dealing with prophets.

I’d accept almost any answer, at least it would be something that would help the discussion move along.
 
Mormon_Cultist said:
If I show you a ball, and tell you its a cube, has the object itself been changed? I am clearly talking about the object itself, but by saying its a cube I am wrong. The object is still a ball, and there isn’t some other object created just to fit the description I gave.
If there is an object in a box, and one of us postulates it to be a ball, the other a cube, there is still only one object, and it is still only either a ball or a cube; one of us is wrong.
Its an extreme simplification, granted, but I find it odd when you talk about a ‘different God’ or ‘different Christ’ when all that is different is the beliefs and opinions we hold about Him.
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It’s all a matter of perspective and interpretation. But, when all is said and done, one of us is still wrong according to the true definition of those terms. The trick is in figuring out which one of us really understands the truth, that a ball is spherical and a cube is perfectly square on all sides.
Mormon_Cultist said:
I understand the belief you hold, but I don’t find it logical that God simply changes His method of communication with men on Earth.
While I agree that prophecy of the future coming of Jesus Christ was no longer necessary after the time of His birth (obviously); this was never the only role filled by prophets of God. It was ever their job also to warn people of God’s word, and interpret His will to them and how it applied to them in their day, despite having been given to peoples of a previous time. This role of a prophet is still relevant and necessary today; I would argue more necessary today than at any time throughout the whole of history. It is also relevant to note that during Christ’s mortal ministry “He gave some… prophets”. Odd that He should assign an obsolete and outdated calling to individuals, if it was not necessary or even useful any more, no?
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What LDS wish to ignore is that the roles of those men of faith in the Old Testament, including those of the prophets as well as the priesthood, are all fulfilled in the Catholic Church, which is the Mystical Body of Christ. She is the only one that has full Authority that was given to Her by Jesus Christ when He gave Peter the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. The Church still holds all of those keys, whether anyone chooses to believe it, or not. She will never relinquish them to anyone except Jesus Christ, when He returns at the end of time. It’s Her sole responsibility to guard the true Faith that Jesus established in His New Covenant, and to guide all of Her members to Jesus through the help of the Holy Spirit, Who will always remain faithful to Her. If the LDS didn’t ignore it, then their house of cards that was built on a foundation of sand would completely fall apart, and the need for any kind of ‘restoration’ would be seen for what it really is, just a lot of smoke and mirrors.
 
Chris-WA said:
That is an odd reason for leaving a church. I could certainly undertand if you could not accept certain doctrines of Catholicism, but leaving simply because that was the faith you were raised in as a child makes no sense. There are millions of Mormon children who were raised LDS. Obviously you wouldn’t think they should leave Mormonism simply because they had no choice that their parents raised them Mormon? Is there more to the story than that?
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So you believe it is odd for me to make my own choice, which I should have been allowed in Catholicism and was not as a child?

Further, I being in Catholicism laid a foundation, it was never solid due to parents – nonetheless I had to make my own choice, regardless of my parents.
 
ChrisB103 said:
We all make claims. Claims are, by definition, the assertion of something as fact. You claim Joseph Smith is a prophet. I claim that Jesus Christ was the last and greatest prophet, the very Word of God that was begotten by God before all ages. My intention is not to insult your beliefs (especially not by implying things through the semantics of the word “claim”), so I am sorry if you have perceived my intentions in this light. My intention is to discuss my belief and the beliefs of others in order to see what makes sense and what does not.

It is your choice to remain set in your beliefs, regardless of any evidence that is presented to you. However, you must understand that you do so in contradiction to the objective truths available in Christian history (such as the utter lack of evidence for the Great Apostasy) and the objective evidence surrounding the history of the LDS faith and its prophets.

At the end of all of our lives, we will be judged based on how we lived this life based on the gifts that God has given us. I pray that we would all follow God to the best of our ability, for God is truth itself.
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That is your understanding of how one comes to the truth — obviously clear distinctions in Catholicism and Mormonism.

I would hope that my views would stir real interest in my church’s believes versus “what some claim we believe”. I could do similar things against Catholicism – I will not because first of it disrespectful and I submit those who choose to be loyal to it.

I continue to pray for better days among some who obviously hate my church, for reasons known to them.
 
Chris-WA said:
Just curious, what is the most recent case of an LDS prophet claiming a public revelation?
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Oh you mean you don’t know? Well they have a “DIVINE UTTERANCE” every 4-years. Then they “vote” on it. 👍
 
CourtAdvocate said:
That is your understanding of how one comes to the truth — obviously clear distinctions in Catholicism and Mormonism.

I would hope that my views would stir real interest in my church’s believes versus “what some claim we believe”. I could do similar things against Catholicism – I will not because first of it disrespectful and I submit those who choose to be loyal to it.

I continue to pray for better days among some who obviously hate my church, for reasons known to them.
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What some claim? How about we stick to the actual facts. The only aspect I find interesting is how a lie became the truth in minds of so many.

Which is… The study of a Criminal who traveled the USA fleecing souls out of hard earned cash, a so called prophet who “behind a curtain placed a stone under his hat and gave revised scripture verse” which no-one seen him actually do, can’t be proven, nor is there one shred of Historic evidence vs Archaeology of Horse’s and Cattle in America in the 4-AD to substanciate anything claimed by Joes Smith. In fact its so far fetched its actually perposterous. In truth a Treasure Hunter, is all Joe Smith was. And he found his treasure in his own revised edition of History and Scripture. Not really a mystery, all known facts.

The when he tired of his wife, he suggested on open marriage/polygamy. Wow, what a story this guy is. I find it simply amazing one could in all seriousness even promote this, let alone on the Apostolic Church forum such as CAF. Bold I’ll give you that.

Re-wrote scripture, so badly he completely lost the meaning of Turn the Other Cheek by Christ. The careful examination of historic history with Joe Smith from CT to his Death is in Court records and all known, and YOU should actually read it. Prophets are not killed commiting a felony. They are Martryed for their faith. Perhaps a thread on “exactly” was martrydom is? Seems LDS/Mormons have the concept misinterpreted.

All the Court documents are available and you can start with NY! Since you use the title of “CourtAdvocate” it would be an interesting and easy read for you I imagine. 🤷

How one comes to the truth? By precise knowledge of History which IMHO is seriously “lacking” in the LDS following. Never mind Contextual Scripture, and Archaeology/Geography. Truth is a result of Knowledge not fabricated history which leads some to believe they found the Holy Spirit because some how they “feel” good. People “feel” good leaving Rock and Roll and Death Metal concerts, I doubt they found the Holy Spirit at one through.

Umm over “here” in Catholicism we actually have dated history, scriptural context/content, thus Oral/Written tradition which dates to the Apostles. What you have is good story for the gullible… course thats IMHO. And this “is” being polite. The Bible you read, the CC wrote, and its based on the Oral Tradition from Christs 3-year ministry till the Oral Tradition was placed in Scripture then Bible.

You state “I can do the same with Catholicism” well instead of playing games here, pick a topic you find fault with in Catholicism, post it and lets stop being “vague” and talking about nothing, and what one “could” do? Whatever comes off the top of your head, and YOU feel most comfortable with…we can proceed from “that point”.

If fact I suggest we should start “exactly” at the point here if are to resolve any falsehoods which definately exist! So let us set out to see “exactly” where. I think you have a Great idea:shrug:

The first falsehood perhaps is the Catholic Church Apostasy your church “promotes” how about we start there? I would just love to hear that story laid out step by step.
 
Mormon_Cultist said:
If I show you a ball, and tell you its a cube, has the object itself been changed?
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Absolutely not, and a perfect example is Joe Smith of ball trying to be a cube, the criminal who became a prophet, in the minds of those who who use vague Bible verse and invented history which holds no water under scutiny.

Exactly how is that necessary or useful since theres no factual proof to any of it? In fact its very much contrary to what one would like to “pretend” it is. 👍

All an interesting story like Joe Smith, but the truth is…thats all it is, a story!
 
Mormon_Cultist said:
I understand the belief you hold, but I don’t find it logical that God simply changes His method of communication with men on Earth.
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Christ’s Incarnation was a monumental change in His method of communication with men on Earth.
 
Mormon_Cultist said:
If I show you a ball, and tell you its a cube, has the object itself been changed? I am clearly talking about the object itself, but by saying its a cube I am wrong. The object is still a ball, and there isn’t some other object created just to fit the description I gave.
If there is an object in a box, and one of us postulates it to be a ball, the other a cube, there is still only one object, and it is still only either a ball or a cube; one of us is wrong.
Its an extreme simplification, granted, but I find it odd when you talk about a ‘different God’ or ‘different Christ’ when all that is different is the beliefs and opinions we hold about Him.
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Not quite the same thing. Lets change this to people, instead of cubes and balls.

If you and I are talking about Bill, I ask you, do you know Bill?
You respond, “Oh, yes, sure I know Bill. He lives over on Elm Street”
Then I say: “No he lives over on Cherry Drive and has two sons and two daughters”
Then you say: “No,he has three sons and is a computer programmer”
Then I say: “No he is a car salesman. Hmm, must be a different Bill”

This makes a lot more sense than cubes and balls.
 
…and still waiting for an LDS response to my series of questions on prophets.🤷
 
Well if Mormons are calling cubes balls or vice versa…then what they are using is Absolute Relativism to determine the Truth, which is objective.

Mormons are not using the disciplines of metaphysical science…which is the study of reality.

The created world is constantly changing. Science makes a discovery on a subject, only in time makes a new discovery on the same subject…and on and on and on.

The only one constant we have in this world is God…the Unmoved Cause, the Unmoved Mover. All all of the created universe has its own essence and condition, a ‘truth’ about its reality of what it is.

If I take my finger and move it around a ball, I am experiencing a curved angle. If I take my finger and move it around a cube, first, my eye is seeing a different shape that has 4 distinct angles, and I can take my senses that feel touch, and also determine that the cube is different in shape than a ball. So in essence, by sight and touch with several different senses, I can experience a different reality.

But objectively, there is a ball and there is a cube.

It is like a study I heard on Catholic radio about how people in modern times think in relativism…and what Pope Benedict called today is the world’s greatest evil – is the tyranny of relativism.

You see 4 oranges and 2 apples and a banana on the table…the Objectivist sees 4 oranges, 2 apples and a banana on the table, the oranges are colored orange and round, the apples are red and oblong, and the banana is yellow and more spherical and oblong…

A relativist says…well it seems to me…note: it feels to me…burning in the bosom?..that I am seeing 3 oranges with 1 red one, and two apples, one seeming orange and the other purple, and then I am seeing a green tube of a banana…

You must realize that Sacred Scripture is speaking of human life, real events, of One God, Creator, not polytheism and subsequent vagaries…and that could be the reason why Mormons are continually taking things out of context or believing in that which is not true and contradicts Christ and His purpose to us.
 
A true prophet never contradicts the former, but there is a continual revelation of truth from God …and a true prophet always is speaking for God in what is His will…to lead people back to Him…and former events all connecting to the present.
 
Mormons should study Catholic spiritual discernment of spirits, to be able to determine what is a true spirit and that from the devil.
 
KathleenGee said:
A true prophet never contradicts the former, but there is a continual revelation of truth from God …and a true prophet always is speaking for God in what is His will…to lead people back to Him…and former events all connecting to the present.
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This is the basis in the Church. Truth is there are gifted individuals out here, if they contradict Scripture or Oral tradition they automatically become looked at in a skeptical view.

Seers, Visionaries, nothing new here. They exist and have a very long time. Just off the top of my head St Faustina comes to mind. The children at Fatima also.
 
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