Do LDS Prophets Really Talk To God?

[TexanKnight]

No TexanKnight,

If you or Katherine left it at, “Here’s a quote from a previous leader” then we could have a civil discussion on whether it was an honext quote and what it may have meant.

That might be possible if your doctrine did not change more often than some folks change underwear. The problem is, you claim things mean something when many of us know better.

The problem comes from your insistence that the prooftexted quote, not from our scriptures, must be core LDS doctrine. When I discuss RCC theology, I only reference official sources of doctrine

Not true. They come from things your prophets have said and BY CLAIMED it was doctrine. Sorry, but we know better.

There is great irony between LDS and RCC
RCC Critics always insist the POPE is fallible, when Catholics say he is infallible
LDS critics always insist the President/Prophet is infallible, when we say he isn’t

I love it when you compare a prop[het to a non-prophet. It is an admission that you do not have real prophets.[/COLOR]

.

 

[KathleenGee]

I am referring back to the thread…Theosis Contrasted with Exaltation…back in November 2011…and it is like starting to happen again…

 

[zaffiroborant]

Just curious, what is the most recent case of an LDS prophet claiming a public revelation?

Well Chris-WA from the silence on your question I can only conclude that although the LDS believe in continuing revelation, they don’t actually receive any… Sad, waiting and hoping for something that never comes, it’s sort of like being a Cubs fan.

 

[ParkerD]

Just curious, what is the most recent case of an LDS prophet claiming a public revelation?

Chris-WA,

The humor was fun, but the real picture is quite different than your post shows as to the expectation about “public revelation”.

Peter, Paul, James (the brother of the Lord) and John show through their epistles and through Luke’s description in Acts, that they weren’t presenting “cases of public revelation” in the sense that it was “something new”, except in the case of changing the law of circumcision and taking the gospel to the Gentiles.

Luke in fact chided that the Athenians were wanting to hear “some new thing” (Acts 17:21).

A prophet testifies of the reality of the living Messiah, Jesus Christ, as noted by John in Revelation 19:10. A prophet also reiterates the truths of the gospel, as did Peter, Paul, James and John.

So Latter-day Saints don’t sit around wondering when they will hear “some new thing” or “some new revelation”. Nor do they expect that one will be announced as a “claim” of “public revelation”. But they do heed the counsel of a prophet in ways that strengthen their own family, or help the youth of the church to be strengthened in living the gospel by teaching youth leaders. The Latter-day Saint prophet gives reinforcement, mostly, and inspired emphasis of key teachings that are going to be important in the months and years to follow, so this is why there is an emphasis on “following the living prophet” for members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 

[zaffiroborant]

The Latter-day Saint prophet gives reinforcement, mostly, and inspired** emphasis of key teachings that are going to be important in the months and years to follow**, so this is why there is an emphasis on “following the living prophet” for members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Of course you have examples of this “emphasis of key teachings that are going to be important in the months and years to follow” to prove your point right? I’d like to see them, thanks.

 

[RubyT]

lol…yes…I meant NOT to bash

Glad you clarified this.

 

[RubyT]

See Fulton Sheen quote below this says it all.

 

[1voice]

Chris-WA,

The humor was fun, but the real picture is quite different than your post shows as to the expectation about “public revelation”.

Peter, Paul, James (the brother of the Lord) and John show through their epistles and through Luke’s description in Acts, that they weren’t presenting “cases of public revelation” in the sense that it was “something new”, except in the case of changing the law of circumcision and taking the gospel to the Gentiles.

Luke in fact chided that the Athenians were wanting to hear “some new thing” (Acts 17:21).

A prophet testifies of the reality of the living Messiah, Jesus Christ, as noted by John in Revelation 19:10. A prophet also reiterates the truths of the gospel, as did Peter, Paul, James and John.

So Latter-day Saints don’t sit around wondering when they will hear “some new thing” or “some new revelation”. Nor do they expect that one will be announced as a “claim” of “public revelation”. But they do heed the counsel of a prophet in ways that strengthen their own family, or help the youth of the church to be strengthened in living the gospel by teaching youth leaders. The Latter-day Saint prophet gives reinforcement, mostly, and inspired emphasis of key teachings that are going to be important in the months and years to follow, so this is why there is an emphasis on “following the living prophet” for members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

An LDS prophet … does nothing out of the ordinary then?

 

[1voice]

LDS critics always insist the President/Prophet is infallible, when we say he isn’t

LDS prophecy is fallible ?

 

[ParkerD]

Of course you have examples of this "emphasis of key teachings that are going to be important in the months and years to follow" to prove your point right? I’d like to see them, thanks.

Zaffiroborant,

Here are a few from the past ten years:

–an emphasis on having a positive attitude and outlook, and on being grateful to God for the blessings one receives daily in their life.

–an emphasis to youth and young adults on gaining as much education as is possible, including realizing that continuing to learn in one’s chosen field is important.

–an emphasis on avoiding debt and paying off credit card debt, and on being prepared for adverse economic times (which adverse economic times have happened).

–an emphasis on daily prayer and frequent scripture study individually and as a family.

–an emphasis on visiting widows and shut-ins, and on planning and carrying out community service activities.

–an emphasis on having loving, supportive relationships within families and on “putting on the whole armor of God” to resist temptations that are on the air waves and on the internet.

 

[Jerusha]

Parker, that advice, coming from the head of your church, is good common sense. However, what about the core problems that generate anti-Mormon sentiment, such as avoiding adversarial relationships with non-believers, refraining from gossip and judgmental attitudes, and treating all people equally? I don’t see those there.

 

[TexanKnight]

Chris-WA,

The humor was fun, but the real picture is quite different than your post shows as to the expectation about “public revelation”.

Peter, Paul, James (the brother of the Lord) and John show through their epistles and through Luke’s description in Acts, that they weren’t presenting “cases of public revelation” in the sense that it was “something new”, except in the case of changing the law of circumcision and taking the gospel to the Gentiles.

Luke in fact chided that the Athenians were wanting to hear “some new thing” (Acts 17:21).

A prophet testifies of the reality of the living Messiah, Jesus Christ, as noted by John in Revelation 19:10. A prophet also reiterates the truths of the gospel, as did Peter, Paul, James and John.

So Latter-day Saints don’t sit around wondering when they will hear “some new thing” or “some new revelation”. Nor do they expect that one will be announced as a “claim” of “public revelation”. But they do heed the counsel of a prophet in ways that strengthen their own family, or help the youth of the church to be strengthened in living the gospel by teaching youth leaders. The Latter-day Saint prophet gives reinforcement, mostly, and inspired emphasis of key teachings that are going to be important in the months and years to follow, so this is why there is an emphasis on “following the living prophet” for members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The only “new” revelations have been to change old revelations that were going to financially cripple the LDS Church. The LDS god is a lot more worried about finances than the True God.

Come Home, Parker

 

[ParkerD]

Parker, that advice, coming from the head of your church, is good common sense. However, what about the core problems that generate anti-Mormon sentiment, such as avoiding adversarial relationships with non-believers, refraining from gossip and judgmental attitudes, and treating all people equally? I don’t see those there.

Jerusha,

Such things as “avoiding adversarial relationships with non-believers, refraining from gossip and judgmental attitudes, and treating all people equally” have certainly been emphasized, and I thought about listing religious tolerance and respect but I was aware that
1–the Pope’s New Year message included these kinds of attributes (which I appreciated and I wish his message was being assimilated), so I thought I should differentiate into other areas.
2–it becomes a “revolving door” type of conversation on this forum, I’ve noticed.

Here is a good Ensign article that has references on that topic:

lds.org/ensign/2000/08/a-latter-day-saint-perspective-on-muhammad?lang=eng&query=religious+respect+tolerance

There have been other emphases on these attributes. Let me know if you would like more sources and I’ll look for them in recent talks by the latter-day prophet in General Conferences.

 

[GaryTaylor]

THE CEREMONY AT THE VEIL OF THE TEMPLE:

The end of the endowment ceremony comes when the veil of the temple is uncovered and each member of the company is presented individually at the veil to be examined and passed through into the Celestial Room, representing the Celestial Kingdom.

The veil is a large white cloth, hanging from the ceiling and reaching to the floor, separating the room where the previous ceremonies have taken place from the Celestial Room. It represents the separation between the mortal state and the heavenly state, and thus "passing through the veil" is meant to be symbolic of leaving this existence and passing into the presence of God, as represented by the Celestial Room. Until the patrons are ready to "be presented at the Veil," the Veil is covered with a heavy drape, on a drawstring, similar to a large window drape.

The Veil is actually not a single piece of cloth, but consists of numerous duplicate sections a few feet wide. This allows numerous patrons to be presented at the veil simultaneously so that the entire company can pass quickly through the Veil. 

Each section of the veil has the same symbols cut into it (only larger) as are in the garment worn by each patron. These marks are the Mark of the Square, the Mark of the Compass (one over each nipple in the garment, at shoulder height in the veil), the Navel Mark and the Knee Mark. The former two are simple right angles; the latter two are simple straight slits. Each section of the veil is separated from the next by a small post, from which hangs a small mallet.

Each patron is presented by a temple worker at one of the segments of the veil. Other workers, representing "the Lord," stands unseen on the other side of the veil. The worker standing with the patron taps three times with the mallet, and the following dialogue occurs.

LORD: What is wanted?
WORKER: Adam [Eve], having been true and faithful in all things, desires further light and knowledge, by conversing with the Lord, through the Veil [for and in behalf of N. N., who is dead].
LORD: Present him [her] at the Veil, and his [her] request shall be granted.
(The Lord reaches his hand through the veil and gives the First Token of the Aaronic Priesthood through the opening.)
LORD: What is that?
PATRON: The First Token of the Aaronic Priesthood.
LORD: Has it a name?
PATRON: It has.
LORD: Will you give it to me?
PATRON: I will, through the Veil. (The patron gives the New Name).
The Lord continues similarly, through the other tokens, until the last one, for which the patron has not received the name:

(The Lord gives the Second Token of the Melchizedek Priesthood.)
LORD: What is that?
PATRON: The Second Token of the Melchizedek Priesthood, the Patriarchal Grip, or Sure sign of the Nail.
LORD: Has it a name?
PATRON: It has.
LORD: Will you give it to me?
PATRON: I cannot. I have not yet received it. For this purpose I have come to converse with the Lord through the Veil.
LORD: You shall receive it upon the Five Points of Fellowship through the Veil.

The Lord and the patron, still holding the grip, embrace upon the Five points of Fellowship by placing their left arms through the marks of the compass and square, which are cut through the Veil. The patron’s left arm goes through the mark of the compass, and the Lord’s left arm goes through the mark of the square. The Five Points of Fellowship are: 1) inside of right foot by the side of right foot, 2) knee to knee, 3) breast to breast, 4) hand to back, and 5) mouth to ear.

One of the major changes made in 1990 was the elimination of the "Five Points of Fellowship," probably because many women objected that they felt uncomfortable embracing "The Lord" so intimately.

LORD: This is the name of the Token–“Health in the navel, marrow in the bones, strength in the loins and in the sinews, power in the Priesthood be upon me, and upon my posterity through all generations of time, and throughout all eternity.”

(The Lord then asks the patron to give him the name of the token. If the patron has difficulty remembering it correctly, the temple worker will prompt him.)

(The Lord and patron break the ceremonial embrace, and the temple worker gives another three taps with the mallet.)
LORD: What is wanted?
WORKER: Adam, having conversed with the Lord through the Veil, desires now to enter his presence.
LORD: Let him enter.

(The Veil is now parted and the Lord takes the patron by the right hand, and pulls him gently through the Veil into the Celestial Room.)

The endowment ceremony ends for each patron as he or she passes through the veil. If a man and woman are being married that day, the man goes through the veil first, and then assumes the role of the Lord to bring his bride through the veil.
There is no ritual performed in the Celestial room, which is generally a very large and elaborately furnished sitting room, with sofas, chairs, tables, art work, chandeliers and carpeting. Patrons may rest briefly, relax, visit (in subdued voices) with others. Praying is discouraged. Patrons may also go directly to the locker rooms from the Celestial Room and then leave, or they may have scheduled sealings, which are performed in small Sealing Rooms which open off the Celestial Room. If couples are being married, their wedding party gathers in the Celestial Room to wait for a sealing room to become available.

Course this is after the prior rooms of the Ceremony where the Free Mason handshakes occur etc. You can see photos etc, read…

MORMON TEMPLES AND TEMPLE RITUALS
by Richard Packham.

They do wait for that “Divine Utterance” every four years though don’t they ParkerD?

The article may vary slightly in time with words and ritual, though “not much” since I just heard the exact same story from a fellow who left the LDS church.

Prayers are with you:thumbsup:

 

[zaffiroborant]

Zaffiroborant,

Here are a few from the past ten years:

–an emphasis on having a positive attitude and outlook, and on being grateful to God for the blessings one receives daily in their life.

–an emphasis to youth and young adults on gaining as much education as is possible, including realizing that continuing to learn in one’s chosen field is important.

–an emphasis on avoiding debt and paying off credit card debt, and on being prepared for adverse economic times (which adverse economic times have happened).

–an emphasis on daily prayer and frequent scripture study individually and as a family.

–an emphasis on visiting widows and shut-ins, and on planning and carrying out community service activities.

–an emphasis on having loving, supportive relationships within families and on “putting on the whole armor of God” to resist temptations that are on the air waves and on the internet.

An LDS prophet … does nothing out of the ordinary then?

Yes nothing out of the ordinary, same counsel one finds in churches everywhere.

 

[TexanKnight]

Jerusha,

Such things as “avoiding adversarial relationships with non-believers, refraining from gossip and judgmental attitudes, and treating all people equally” have certainly been emphasized, and I thought about listing religious tolerance and respect but I was aware that
1–the Pope’s New Year message included these kinds of attributes (which I appreciated and I wish his message was being assimilated), so I thought I should differentiate into other areas.
2–it becomes a “revolving door” type of conversation on this forum, I’ve noticed.

Here is a good Ensign article that has references on that topic:

lds.org/ensign/2000/08/a-latter-day-saint-perspective-on-muhammad?lang=eng&query=religious+respect+tolerance

There have been other emphases on these attributes. Let me know if you would like more sources and I’ll look for them in recent talks by the latter-day prophet in General Conferences.

Gee…it took a prophet to think of those things?

 

[ParkerD]

Yes nothing out of the ordinary, same counsel one finds in churches everywhere.

That was my point–that if people are looking for “some new thing”, then they should look elsewhere than for the teachings of a prophet of God. A prophet of God reinforces Biblical teachings, and then the members, if they listen and heed, have the teachings go deeply into their heart and soul and they live by the teachings.

 

[TexanKnight]

That was my point–that if people are looking for “some new thing”, then they should look elsewhere than for the teachings of a prophet of God. A prophet of God reinforces Biblical teachings, and then the members, if they listen and heed, have the teachings go deeply into their heart and soul and they live by the teachings.

Ah…so polygamy was reinforcing what Jesus taught? Denying blacks the Priesthood was reinforcing what Jesus taught? Perhaps you should show me in the NT where Jesus taught those things

 

[ParkerD]

Ah…so polygamy was reinforcing what Jesus taught? Denying blacks the Priesthood was reinforcing what Jesus taught? Perhaps you should show me in the NT where Jesus taught those things

TexanKnight,

I had already pointed out that there were two major changes that are explained in Acts, that were revealed to Peter and taught by Paul: removing the law of circumcision, and taking the gospel to the Gentiles which meant accepting them into full fellowship as “fellow citizens with the saints”.

So to say that prophets reinforce Biblical teachings is not to say that there is no such thing as changes in what God asks His covenant followers to do. That precedent is shown in both the Old Testament and the New Testament. It is a Biblical precedent that is clear and unmistakable.

The priesthood was withheld from the Gentiles during Old Testament times. That is part of the Bible.

Abraham had more than one wife, as did David, as did Jacob. That is part of the Bible. Jesus didn’t condemn Abraham, nor did Paul, who used him as an example of faithfulness.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints doesn’t drop the Old Testament. It is pertinent in many significant ways, and there are still unfulfilled prophecies within the Old Testament that will yet be fulfilled.

 

[TexanKnight]

TexanKnight,

I had already pointed out that there were two major changes that are explained in Acts, that were revealed to Peter and taught by Paul: removing the law of circumcision, and taking the gospel to the Gentiles which meant accepting them into full fellowship as “fellow citizens with the saints”.

So to say that prophets reinforce Biblical teachings is not to say that there is no such thing as changes in what God asks His covenant followers to do. That precedent is shown in both the Old Testament and the New Testament. It is a Biblical precedent that is clear and unmistakable.

The priesthood was withheld from the Gentiles during Old Testament times. That is part of the Bible.

Abraham had more than one wife, as did David, as did Jacob. That is part of the Bible. Jesus didn’t condemn Abraham, nor did Paul, who used him as an example of faithfulness.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints doesn’t drop the Old Testament. It is pertinent in many significant ways, and there are still unfulfilled prophecies within the Old Testament that will yet be fulfilled.

Ah…the old “Old Testament folks did it 6000 years ago, so why not us” argument.

Tell me, did Joseph follow EVERYTHING they did in the OT, or just the ones that allowed Joseph to marry other people’s wives?

And YOU are the one who said the revelations only reinformned the NT. So, again, since you dodged the question…so polygamy was reinforcing what Jesus taught? Denying blacks the Priesthood was reinforcing what Jesus taught? Perhaps you should show me in the NT where Jesus taught those things