Do LDS Prophets Really Talk To God?

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But this is 2012, not 1850, and there is such a thing as progress for a group and for individuals as the world gets ready for the Second Coming of Christ.
Hi Parker - Sorry I have not responded to your earlier post. I will do so and I hope your daughters are doing well.

Is this what you would call “progress”?
It seems the church is responding to the falling numbers by having to tell the truth about the less than savory facts of Mormon history that younger members can study about online.
How are they going to address some of the more “sensitive issues”?
Why was it hidden in the first place?
Only 5 million practicing Mormons…wow…that must be concerning.

(edited for length;bold mine)

Special Report: Mormonism besieged by the modern age

By Peter Henderson and Kristina Cooke

Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:10am EST

SALT LAKE CITY, Utah - A religious studies class late last year at Utah State University in Logan, Utah, was unusual for two reasons. The small group of students, faculty and faithful there to hear Mormon Elder Marlin Jensen were openly troubled about the future of their church, asking hard questions. And Jensen was uncharacteristically frank in acknowledging their concerns.

Did the leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints know that members are "leaving in droves?" a woman asked.

“We are aware,” said Jensen, according to a tape recording of his unscripted remarks. “And I’m speaking of the 15 men that are above me in the hierarchy of the church. They really do know and they really care,” he said.

“My own daughter,” he then added, “has come to me and said, ‘Dad, why didn’t you ever tell me that Joseph Smith was a polygamist?’” For the younger generation, Jensen acknowledged, “Everything’s out there for them to consume if they want to Google it.” The manuals used to teach the young church doctrine, meanwhile, are "severely outdated."
These are tumultuous times for the faith founded by Joseph Smith in 1830, and the rumbling began even before church member Mitt Romney’s presidential bid put the Latter-Day Saints in the spotlight.

Jensen, the church’s official historian, would not provide any figures on the rate of defections, but he told Reuters that attrition has accelerated in the last five or 10 years, reflecting greater secularization of society. Many religions have been suffering similarly, he noted, arguing that Mormonism has never been more vibrant.

“I think we are at a time of challenge, but it isn’t apocalyptic,” he said.

The LDS church claims 14 million members worldwide – optimistically including nearly every person baptized. But census data from some foreign countries targeted by clean-cut young missionaries show that the retention rate for their converts is as low as 25 percent. In the U.S., only about half of Mormons are active members of the church, said Washington State University emeritus sociologist Armand Mauss, a leading researcher on Mormons.

Sociologists estimate there are as few as 5 million active members worldwide.

In Africa and Latin America, however, Jensen said that interest in the LDS was so strong that the church has cut back baptisms in order to better care for new members.

THE RESCUE

With defections rising, the church has launched a program to stanch its losses. The head of the church, President Thomas Monson, who is considered a living prophet, has called the campaign “The Rescue” and made it his signature initiative, according to Jensen. The effort includes a new package of materials for pastors and for teaching Mormon youth that address some of the more sensitive aspects of church doctrine. “If they are not revolutionary, they are at least going to be a breath of fresh air across the church,” Jensen told the Utah class.

Not since a famous troublespot in Mormon history, the 1837 failure of a church bank in Kirtland, Ohio, have so many left the church, Jensen said.

“Maybe since Kirtland, we’ve never had a period of - I’ll call it apostasy, like we’re having now,” he told the group in Logan.

Then he outlined how the church was using the technologies that had loosened its grip on the flock to reverse this trend.

“The church has a very progressive research and information division, with tremendous public opinion surveyors,” he said. Among other steps, it has hired an expert in search-engine optimization to raise the profile of the church’s own views in a web search.

Researchers note a rising tide of questions from church members about the gospel according to Joseph Smith’s The Book of Mormon, the best known of the Latter-day Saints’ scriptures. Over the years, church literature has largely glossed over some of the more controversial aspects of its history, such as the polygamy practiced by Smith and Brigham Young, who led the Mormons to Utah.

Moreover, church leaders have taught that the Book of Mormon is a historical document – not a parable – so the faithful are startled to find articles on the internet using science to contradict it.

The church is particularly concerned, however, about its younger members – the ones who are asked to dedicate two years of their life to spreading the Mormon gospel.

“It’s a different generation,” Elder Jensen told the group in Logan. “There’s no sense kidding ourselves, we just need to be very upfront with them and tell them what we know and give answers to what we have and call on their faith like we all do for things we don’t understand.”
 
I think it would help the Mormon Church to admit their doctrines change, their language of presenting themselves change, that yes they did look at the Catholic Church up to 1997 or so as the *(-%-@)://;//####!@@! and that Joseph Smith did practice polygamy and polyandry, made up stuff, had a charlatan past, etc, etc…and its foundation does not have witness of such events happening, and that they are drawing closer to Christianity and finding now common ground with us, as they themselves are finding.

Admitting past mistakes and positions…the Mormons now have to trust us to forgive and we all become more united.

And…who knows Gov Romney might pick a Catholic Pro Life Candidate for his running mate!
 
Well, this is what really happened today. The TV show announced that they were going to interview someone who was invited to join the Romney campaign, implying he could be asked to run as Vice President. The Governor told the campaign he did want to help them out

When I saw the Virginia Governor come on, he looked and talked and smiled alot like Mormons do…so I thought he was a Mormon and he said he was very happy with what he was doing as governor. So I thought…are we going to have a Mormon presidential team!!!.

So I checked him out and found out he is Pro Life in practice…and ----- he is a Roman Catholic! Judging by appearances…in how I perceive them as Mormons…on the outside he looks like a Mormon with his suit, his smile, his expression, his attitude…and…he promotes Pro Life as any good Catholic would…He looks like he could work with Romney vs Santorum…I support Santorum…but this was news to me…we will see…let’s pray for right people!
 
I think it would help the Mormon Church to admit their doctrines change, their language of presenting themselves change, that yes they did look at the Catholic Church up to 1997 or so as the *(-%-@)://;//####!@@! and that Joseph Smith did practice polygamy and polyandry, made up stuff, had a charlatan past, etc, etc…and its foundation does not have witness of such events happening, and that they are drawing closer to Christianity and finding now common ground with us, as they themselves are finding.

Admitting past mistakes and positions…the Mormons now have to trust us to forgive and we all become more united.

And…who knows Gov Romney might pick a Catholic Pro Life Candidate for his running mate!
I don’t think the Mormons could stand being “unpopular” like the Catholics are.

As stated in the above article:
“The church has a very progressive research and information division, with tremendous public opinion surveyors,” he said. Among other steps, it has hired an expert in search-engine optimization to raise the profile of the church’s own views in a web search.

Public opinion surveyors? Do prophets really need them?
Is doing what Christ commanded always popular or dependent upon public opinion?

Mormons would have to really be ready to stick their necks out and not change due to public opinion polls.
 
Lax…so true! You can only go so far if your religion is based on man and people’s opinion…

I am beginning to see that who may be of great help to the Mormons is Mary…as revealed by the Catholic Church…her role, her sanctity, her maternal presence and care that continues through today…Her immaculate heart…our refuge in these hard times…that are affecting the faith and well being of all people.
 
I don’t think the Mormons could stand being “unpopular” like the Catholics are.

As stated in the above article:
“The church has a very progressive research and information division, with tremendous public opinion surveyors,” he said. Among other steps, it has hired an expert in search-engine optimization to raise the profile of the church’s own views in a web search.

Public opinion surveyors? Do prophets really need them?
Is doing what Christ commanded always popular or dependent upon public opinion?

Mormons would have to really be ready to stick their necks out and not change due to public opinion polls.
Lax16,

I think perhaps you misunderstood, or that the writer misunderstood about the use of “public opinion surveys” and “search-engine optimization”.

With regard to the latter, this website must have done some “search-engine optimization” of its own, because if one does a Google search, it often has an article that appears on the first page or the second page if the search has to do with subjects covered here. (That’s what “search-engine optimization” means. It is done by linkages within a website–the more linkages, the higher the “order” of appearance from a Google search.) So for the church to do that so that when someone types in some key words, articles about Latter-day Saint beliefs come up on the first page of options that are written by Latter-day Saints rather than by those with their own strong agendas, makes good sense. This would make sense to a computer programmer that they would do that for many good reasons.

“Public opinion surveys” have to do with figuring out what the public perception is, so that for example if the public only thinks of the word “polygamy” when they see the word “Mormon”, there can be at least good attempts to try and dispel continuing misconceptions.
 
update:

It was announced on January 10, 2012, that Elder Steven E. Snow, currently serving in the Presidency of the Seventy will succeed Jensen as Church Historian and Recorder later this year, that Snow would be released from the Presidency of the Seventy, and that Jensen would be granted Emeritus status in October 2012.[31]

Wow - that didn’t take long did it?
He met with students at Utah State University at the end of 2011 and was let go January of 2012…I guess he said way too much.

I think the LDS Church Historian let the cat(s) out of the bag:
  1. Membership is decreasing and not going gangbusters as earlier suggested by LDS church
  2. Even the LDS Church Historian didn’t tell his own children that Joseph Smith was a polygamist
  3. Young people are doing their own research and coming up with all the dirt that non-members already know
  4. LDS Church has hired public opinion surveyors to try to turn their image around
  5. LDS Church relies on pubic opinion surveyors, not their prophet, to make future decisions
Thank you Marlin Jensen, LDS Church Historian, for your honesty!!!

Back to the OP - If LDS prophets really talk to God why would they need to hire public opinion surveyors?
 
Hi Parker - Sorry I have not responded to your earlier post. I will do so and I hope your daughters are doing well.

Is this what you would call “progress”?
It seems the church is responding to the falling numbers by having to tell the truth about the less than savory facts of Mormon history that younger members can study about online.
How are they going to address some of the more “sensitive issues”?
Why was it hidden in the first place?
Only 5 million practicing Mormons…wow…that must be concerning.

(edited for length;bold mine)

Special Report: Mormonism besieged by the modern age

By Peter Henderson and Kristina Cooke

Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:10am EST

SALT LAKE CITY, Utah - A religious studies class late last year at Utah State University in Logan, Utah, was unusual for two reasons. The small group of students, faculty and faithful there to hear Mormon Elder Marlin Jensen were openly troubled about the future of their church, asking hard questions. And Jensen was uncharacteristically frank in acknowledging their concerns.

Did the leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints know that members are "leaving in droves?" a woman asked.

“We are aware,” said Jensen, according to a tape recording of his unscripted remarks. “And I’m speaking of the 15 men that are above me in the hierarchy of the church. They really do know and they really care,” he said.


“I think we are at a time of challenge, but it isn’t apocalyptic,” he said.

The LDS church claims 14 million members worldwide – optimistically including nearly every person baptized. But census data from some foreign countries targeted by clean-cut young missionaries show that the retention rate for their converts is as low as 25 percent. In the U.S., only about half of Mormons are active members of the church…

Sociologists estimate there are as few as 5 million active members worldwide.


THE RESCUE

… The head of the church, President Thomas Monson, who is considered a living prophet, has called the campaign “The Rescue” and made it his signature initiative, according to Jensen. The effort includes a new package of materials for pastors and for teaching Mormon youth that address some of the more sensitive aspects of church doctrine. “If they are not revolutionary, they are at least going to be a breath of fresh air across the church,” Jensen told the Utah class.


Then he outlined how the church was using the technologies that had loosened its grip on the flock to reverse this trend.


Researchers note a rising tide of questions from church members about the gospel according to Joseph Smith’s The Book of Mormon, the best known of the Latter-day Saints’ scriptures. Over the years, church literature has largely glossed over some of the more controversial aspects of its history, such as the polygamy practiced by Smith and Brigham Young, who led the Mormons to Utah.

Moreover, church leaders have taught that the Book of Mormon is a historical document – not a parable – so the faithful are startled to find articles on the internet using science to contradict it.

The church is particularly concerned, however, about its younger members – the ones who are asked to dedicate two years of their life to spreading the Mormon gospel.

“It’s a different generation,” Elder Jensen told the group in Logan. “There’s no sense kidding ourselves, we just need to be very upfront with them and tell them what we know and give answers to what we have and call on their faith like we all do for things we don’t understand.”
Lax16,

Yes, I would call it “progress”.

I personally would expect about a 25% eventual convert retention rate (meaning the convert stays active such that they attend the temple and continue to stay active or come back if they end up in a period of inactivity). This is what one comes up with statistically from the parable of the sower (from those where the seed actually sprouts), and from the parable of the ten virgins (ten somewhat valiant members of the church starting out with testimonies, but five don’t have reserve oil for their lamps because of whatever personal uncertainties they have). It is also paralleled in the Book of Mormon where members partaking of the fruit of the tree of life, when they don’t hold fast to the word of God continually and instead look at those mocking their beliefs and feel ashamed of them and go off on some other road.

Even the “internet sifter” is paralleled in the Book of Mormon, where a group of once-members become those appointed to stand on “towers” giving out their own public messages (broadcasting them) to both try and dissuade “seekers” and to try and dissuade “members” (who are weak in their faith). So it becomes no surprise that these kinds of things are happening in our world today, as prophetically seen by the prophet Mormon as he decided what to include in compiling the Book of Mormon from the many years of records he selected to include as most pertinent to our day.

The Old Testament also prophesied of this happening, in Malachi 3:17-18. John the Baptist saw that one of the Savior’s major missions is to “thoroughly purge his floor” (Matthew 3:12), and thoroughly means that He is going to be absolutely thorough.

But the leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, though knowing the prophecies about that sifting and purging process, would seek to not lose one soul and would seek out those who have been “lost” or who stray, just as the Savior taught to do–because that is part of the Savior’s work also, and only He knows what is really going on deep down in the heart of any person, whether an LDS member or any other person in the world.
 
Lax16,

I think perhaps you misunderstood, or that the writer misunderstood about the use of “public opinion surveys” and “search-engine optimization”.
Hi Parker - who is the “writer” that misunderstood about the use of public opinion surveyors? (not surveys)
The talk led by the LDS Church Historian was recorded - there is no reason to suppose a mis-translation.
With regard to the latter, this website must have done some “search-engine optimization” of its own, because if one does a Google search, it often has an article that appears on the first page or the second page if the search has to do with subjects covered here. (That’s what “search-engine optimization” means. It is done by linkages within a website–the more linkages, the higher the “order” of appearance from a Google search.) So for the church to do that so that when someone types in some key words, articles about Latter-day Saint beliefs come up on the first page of options that are written by Latter-day Saints rather than by those with their own strong agendas, makes good sense. This would make sense to a computer programmer that they would do that for many good reasons.
This website is not run by the Vatican. It would be a different story if it was.
I know the Catholic Church does not run on public opinion surveys just by listening to the news. It never has and She has survived and thrived by the bloodshed of Her martyrs who never caved in.
“Public opinion surveys” have to do with figuring out what the public perception is, so that for example if the public only thinks of the word “polygamy” when they see the word “Mormon”, there can be at least good attempts to try and dispel continuing misconceptions.
I don’t think that is what the (soon to be ex) LDS Church Historian meant at all - he is very clear that things need to be changed in order to keep the young people interested because they are finding out **the truth about the early history of the Mormon church **and they are running for the door.
Honestly Parker, this is the most honest assessment of the LDS church by a person in a high position I have ever read. I am not surprised he was let go - this story is all over the internet.
 
update:

It was announced on January 10, 2012, that Elder Steven E. Snow, currently serving in the Presidency of the Seventy will succeed Jensen as Church Historian and Recorder later this year, that Snow would be released from the Presidency of the Seventy, and that Jensen would be granted Emeritus status in October 2012.[31]

Wow - that didn’t take long did it?
He met with students at Utah State University at the end of 2011 and was let go January of 2012…I guess he said way too much.

I think the LDS Church Historian let the cat(s) out of the bag:
  1. Membership is decreasing and not going gangbusters as earlier suggested by LDS church
  2. Even the LDS Church Historian didn’t tell his own children that Joseph Smith was a polygamist
  3. Young people are doing their own research and coming up with all the dirt that non-members already know
  4. LDS Church has hired public opinion surveyors to try to turn their image around
  5. LDS Church relies on pubic opinion surveyors, not their prophet, to make future decisions
Thank you Marlin Jensen, LDS Church Historian, for your honesty!!!

Back to the OP - If LDS prophets really talk to God why would they need to hire public opinion surveyors?
Hi, again, Lax16,

Whatever source you read, didn’t let you know evidently, that “Seventies” who are serving under the inspired call of the prophet and serve with the Council of the Twelve Apostles in various assignments throughout the world, are given an “emeritus” status at age 70 where they no longer have the active assignments full-time, although some are asked to be a temple president thereafter. So it is an age thing, in that Elder Jensen will be age 70 on May 18, as he was born on May 18, 1942. This was an expected change in that he was going to be the age where he would be given “emeritus” status, as happens every year for those Seventies who turn age 70.
 
…he is very clear that things need to be changed in order to keep the young people interested because they are finding out **the truth about the early history of the Mormon church **and they are running for the door.
Honestly Parker, this is the most honest assessment of the LDS church by a person in a high position I have ever read. I am not surprised he was let go - this story is all over the internet.
Lax16,

It’s to be expected that “this story is all over the internet”. That’s just what I had previously noted about the sifting process–even though it is an obvious, known practice that an age 70 “Seventy” will be given emeritus status during their 70th year of age.

As far as “young people”, I should know about that from the inside, and I do.

My ward has perhaps three young men who aren’t on missions but are of age to be so, but they aren’t “running for the door”–they are in college. Our youth retention rate is probably 90% in my ward, perhaps 80% in my stake. Davis High School has perhaps the largest seminary attendance in the church (also a very large enrollment in the high school), and they are not “running for the door”. My daughters and sons have many great friends who are serving or have served missions, and are doing well in their activity and their testimony of the gospel. You might re-read my longer post, if you didn’t since you were writing a response to the shorter one.

Peace to you and all, and thanks for asking about my daughters, whose progress is slow but patience is needed in their kinds of cases.🙂
 
Hi, again, Lax16,

Whatever source you read, didn’t let you know evidently, that “Seventies” who are serving under the inspired call of the prophet and serve with the Council of the Twelve Apostles in various assignments throughout the world, are given an “emeritus” status at age 70 where they no longer have the active assignments full-time, although some are asked to be a temple president thereafter. So it is an age thing, in that Elder Jensen will be age 70 on May 18, as he was born on May 18, 1942. This was an expected change in that he was going to be the age where he would be given “emeritus” status, as happens every year for those Seventies who turn age 70.
No Parker. I found more but this should do.

BH Roberts was historian until his death.

And this one too:

Personal details
Born George Homer DurhamFebruary 4, 1911(1911-02-04)
Parowan, Utah, United States
Died January 10, 1985(1985-01-10) (aged 73)
Salt Lake City, Utah, United States
George Homer Durham (February 4, 1911 – January 10, 1985) was an American academic administrator and was a general authority of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) from 1977 until his death.

… Shortly afterward, he was made managing director of the LDS Church Historical Department over Church Historian Leonard J. Arrington.[1] In October 1981, Durham became a member of the Presidency of the Seventy and would remain in that position until his death. **From 1982 to his death Durham was the church’s seventeenth **Church Historian and Recorder. He was succeeded in this position by Dean L. Larson.
 
Lax16,

It’s to be expected that “this story is all over the internet”. That’s just what I had previously noted about the sifting process–even though it is an obvious, known practice that an age 70 “Seventy” will be given emeritus status during their 70th year of age.
Not usually the case.
As far as “young people”, I should know about that from the inside, and I do.
My ward has perhaps three young men who aren’t on missions but are of age to be so, but they aren’t “running for the door”–they are in college. Our youth retention rate is probably 90% in my ward, perhaps 80% in my stake. Davis High School has perhaps the largest seminary attendance in the church (also a very large enrollment in the high school), and they are not “running for the door”. My daughters and sons have many great friends who are serving or have served missions, and are doing well in their activity and their testimony of the gospel. You might re-read my longer post, if you didn’t since you were writing a response to the shorter one.
You live in Utah County I believe, right? You should have large numbers of church attendees. Salt Lake County is another story…
Peace to you and all, and thanks for asking about my daughters, whose progress is slow but patience is needed in their kinds of cases.🙂
I will keep your family in my prayers!🙂
 
No Parker. I found more but this should do.

BH Roberts was historian until his death.

And this one too:

Personal details
Born George Homer DurhamFebruary 4, 1911(1911-02-04)
Parowan, Utah, United States
Died January 10, 1985(1985-01-10) (aged 73)
Salt Lake City, Utah, United States
George Homer Durham (February 4, 1911 – January 10, 1985) was an American academic administrator and was a general authority of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) from 1977 until his death.

… Shortly afterward, he was made managing director of the LDS Church Historical Department over Church Historian Leonard J. Arrington.[1] In October 1981, Durham became a member of the Presidency of the Seventy and would remain in that position until his death. **From 1982 to his death Durham was the church’s seventeenth **Church Historian and Recorder. He was succeeded in this position by Dean L. Larson.
Lax16,

I didn’t post that it has always been the “age 70 emeritus” situation, but this has been done since the early 1990’s if I recall correctly when it was announced as the general policy that was going to be taken. If you need me to find the General Conference session and announcement about that, let me know and I’ll attempt to find it–which may take a few minutes of “search engine” looking up.🙂
 
Not usually the case.

You live in Utah County I believe, right? You should have large numbers of church attendees. Salt Lake County is another story…

I will keep your family in my prayers!🙂
Lax16,

Again, please let me know if you need me to find the announcement about that policy about age 70.

Davis High School is in Davis County, and I do realize that Salt Lake County would have a different story, although I have a wonderful niece and nephew who live in Draper and are doing well, the nephew on a mission and the niece about to graduate from college–both active members.👍

Lax 16,

I had time to edit this with a link to the “emeritus” policy, which doesn’t say an age but it has been predictable that age 70 is the usual age for the policy. I have a good friend locally here whose father was a Seventy and is now “emeritus” (age 70) and is now the St. George Temple president.

The link:

lds.org/general-conference/1989/10/the-sustaining-of-church-officers?lang=eng&query=emeritus+status+authorities+(collection%3a%22general-conference%22
 
Lax16,

Again, please let me know if you need me to find the announcement about that policy about age 70.

Davis High School is in Davis County, and I do realize that Salt Lake County would have a different story, although I have a wonderful niece and nephew who live in Draper and are doing well, the nephew on a mission and the niece about to graduate from college–both active members.👍
Parker - I understand that the retirement at age 70 is a recent development. I do believe his comments had much to do with the Mormon church sticking to it in this situation.

Well, you know Parker, Draper is almost Utah County and is considered a little too close to the Mormon Curtain for most non-members.😉

If I didn’t read the article I would believe all is well in Mormonland but I now know that the current leadership is aware of the problem and attempting to “rescue” the situation. Is that why his book is entitled “To the Rescue”?
 
I don’t think the Mormons could stand being “unpopular” like the Catholics are.

As stated in the above article:
“The church has a very progressive research and information division, with tremendous public opinion surveyors,” he said. Among other steps, it has hired an expert in search-engine optimization to raise the profile of the church’s own views in a web search.

Public opinion surveyors? Do prophets really need them?
Is doing what Christ commanded always popular or dependent upon public opinion?

Mormons would have to really be ready to stick their necks out and not change due to public opinion polls.
And then after all the surveys, their advertising company Bonneville International can hook up with the search engine optimizer to deliver emotional advertising. Described by Bonneville thus:
Our unique strength is the ability to touch the hearts and minds of our audiences, evoking first feeling, then thought and, finally, action. We call this uniquely powerful brand of creative "HeartSell"® - strategic emotional advertising that stimulates response.
The above quote can be read in context here but I have a feeling you won’t be able to find it for very long unless it’s cached somewhere. Their web-site is under construction now.
 
Using search engines in an attempt to continue to hide truth, gambling people will not scroll a couple of inches down and choose another link. Kind of silly if you think about it. 🙂
 
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