Do "liberal" Catholics really think this way?

[AlanFromWichita]

I just read somewhere about liberal Catholics who basically think they can just do anything because they don’t take sin seriously.

I’ve been called a “liberal Catholic,” and seen what seems to go on this board for “liberal Catholic,” and really the shoe doesn’t fit as well as one might think.

For myself, I do question things and if that makes me a liberal in someone’s eyes, so be it. But I question things based on whether they make sense or whether they fit with what else I know to be true. There are times when I just can’t buy some the Church’s teachings, although I’m not opposed to learning more and perhaps changing my mind. And when that happens my knowledge is strengthened because questioning something and then learning the Full Truth of the matter, is far better than settling for an imperfect explanation that doesn’t make sense to me just because I was told that’s what it was and I intend to be obedient.

But it isn’t out of convenience and utility. That would be, if it’s something I care to do then I’m not going to let the Church stand in my way so I will disregard certain teachings.

My objections are not self-serving. If I don’t believe something, it has nothing to do with my desire for it to be wrong.

Calling Catholics who have been called “liberal” or who share “liberal” views with those who have, do you really question the Church because you just don’t want to subject yourself to any sort of authority, or are they honest questions that may or may not represent your “personal preference?” Do you question teachings because they honestly don’t make sense, or because you’re just trying to get away with or excuse something?

One example: I’ve been called “liberal” for saying the voting for an ostensibly pro-life candidate does not necessarily = saving babies. I say that because I have experience at being and hanging around conservative pro-life politicians, not because I have any desire to justify a candidate I want to vote for.

And do you really not take sin seriously? Some think that if you reject that something is a sin, you don’t take sin seriously. Logically that makes no sense to me – if you didn’t take sin seriously then why bother questioning it, why not just wave it off?

So what is it? Are we liberal because we like to apply critical thinking instead of being lemmings, or are we liberal because we just plain refuse to let the Church tell us what to do?

Alan

 

[Cider]

Like if it’s something I care to do then I’m not going to let the Church stand in my way so I will disregard certain teachings.

My objections are not self-serving. If I don’t believe something, it has nothing to do with my desire for it to be wrong.

These two statements seem to conflict.

Choosing to ignore church teaching because you desire to do it anyway is self serving. It’s serving self and personal whims over the what the church teaches as right and wrong.

 

[Justicia_et_Pax]

I just read somewhere about liberal Catholics who basically think they can just do anything because they don’t take sin seriously.

I’ve been called a “liberal Catholic,” and seen what seems to go on this board for “liberal Catholic,” and really the shoe doesn’t fit as well as one might think.

For myself, I do question things and if that makes me a liberal in someone’s eyes, so be it. But I question things based on whether they make sense or whether they fit with what else I know to be true. There are times when I just can’t buy some the Church’s teachings, although I’m not opposed to learning more and perhaps changing my mind. And when that happens my knowledge is strengthened because questioning something and then learning the Full Truth of the matter, is far better than settling for an imperfect explanation that doesn’t make sense to me just because I was told that’s what it was and I intend to be obedient.

But it isn’t out of convenience and utility. That would be, if it’s something I care to do then I’m not going to let the Church stand in my way so I will disregard certain teachings.

My objections are not self-serving. If I don’t believe something, it has nothing to do with my desire for it to be wrong.

Calling Catholics who have been called “liberal” or who share “liberal” views with those who have, do you really question the Church because you just don’t want to subject yourself to any sort of authority, or are they honest questions that may or may not represent your “personal preference?” Do you question teachings because they honestly don’t make sense, or because you’re just trying to get away with or excuse something?

One example: I’ve been called “liberal” for saying the voting for an ostensibly pro-life candidate does not necessarily = saving babies. I say that because I have experience at being and hanging around conservative pro-life politicians, not because I have any desire to justify a candidate I want to vote for.

And do you really not take sin seriously? Some think that if you reject that something is a sin, you don’t take sin seriously. Logically that makes no sense to me – if you didn’t take sin seriously then why bother questioning it, why not just wave it off?

So what is it? Are we liberal because we like to apply critical thinking instead of being lemmings, or are we liberal because we just plain refuse to let the Church tell us what to do?

Alan

Nice post, as always, Alan. I for one am a mixed bag. I do not like to be a sheep and do what I’m told just because I am “supposed” to. Equally though, a lot of the Church’s teachings don’t make sense to me. Where I feel there is conflicting information or conflicting ideas about something, then I try and submit to Church authority and pray for better understanding. If I can’t understand the Church’s line on something at all, though, I simply cannot force myself to follow it.

I try to be as good a Catholic as I can be but I simply do not come from a type of background that many of my fellow CAF posters seem to come from. I had no idea things like novenas even existed until I started posting on CAF. So I am clear that I have a lot to learn. I am in no rush, however, to amend myself, for I intend to understand everything as fully as I can before believing it.

All this said, I am a confirmation catechist in the parish attached to my old school. This is a role I take very seriously indeed. I always present Church teaching rather than (or at the very least, alongside) my own views and try to stick to Church teaching whenever answering questions, as best as I know it

 

[WildCatholic]

One example: I’ve been called “liberal” for saying the voting for an ostensibly pro-life candidate does not necessarily = saving babies. I say that because I have experience at being and hanging around conservative pro-life politicians, not because I have any desire to justify a candidate I want to vote for.

Alan

I’ll admit this is frustrating. Now if you use this to justify voting for a Pro Choice candidate, then you are wrong. However, if you are simply asking whether a pro life candidate is genuine then that is not being a liberal, it is following your beliefs.

I’ll use an example in my home state. Last year we had a bill that would deny prenatal care to illegal immigrants. Our Staunchly conservative and pro life governor supported this, using the whole argument that citizens shouldn’t have to pay for noncitzens and their prenatal care.

Of course a number of tea partiers (including a few catholics) agreed. However we had some good legislators, including conservatives who argued that if we are truly pro life, we should provide prenatal care to everyone who needs it, regardless of their citizenship status.

Now because I agreed with the church, and the view that everyone who needs it should get prenatal care, I got called a liberal by my friends, some of whom still practice catholicism.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

These two statements seem to conflict.

Choosing to ignore church teaching because you desire to do it anyway is self serving. It’s serving self and personal whims over the what the church teaches as right and wrong.

Yes, they were intended to conflict. The first was what I think people think of “liberal” and the second is what I really believe. Maybe I didn’t make that clear from the way I worded it?

Alan

 

[CradleJourney]

I just read somewhere about liberal Catholics who basically think they can just do anything because they don’t take sin seriously.

Calling Catholics who have been called “liberal” or who share “liberal” views with those who have, do you really question the Church because you just don’t want to subject yourself to any sort of authority, or are they honest questions that may or may not represent your “personal preference?” Do you question teachings because they honestly don’t make sense, or because you’re just trying to get away with or excuse something?

Alan

I’ve never had the experience of being called “liberal” - or any other type of Catholic for that matter. I have, do and probably will continue to question the Church on a variety of teachings. When I was younger, I simply disagreed and went on my way … and all the way out the door (so one could call me a “lapsed” Catholic at that point). But God in His awesome grace and mercy called me home.

During this time I struggled mightily with issues I disagreed with. Let me tell you, it was a rather intense fight with me telling God that the Catholic Church did not want me, could not want me, and I could not reconcile myself with all she taught. God basically gave me a raspberry and told me to get back in the pews. Long story short, I came back. Pouting, fussing, complaining and defiant as any child - but also like a child I did what God told me to do.

Fast forward approximately 15 years. I am no longer having my tantrums.
Some issues I have come to realize are beyond my ability to fully comprehend (such as transubstantiation) and I placed in the “I believe Lord, help my unbelief” category.
Some issues I have fully research, read Church documents, studied the Bible and have come to realize that the Church is entirely right and I was entirely wrong. What I once opposed, now I fully advocate.
Some issues I continue to struggle with and continue to disagree. I am open to learning more, open to having my opinion changed, and continually struggle to fully understand why the Church says what it does. But for now I simply cannot accept some teachings.

And for me, I believe that is okay. My user name reflects my personal theology on this if you will … I am on a journey, from cradle to grave. I am not who I once was, nor yet who I will become. I can only offer to God what I am right now. For those who would tell me I am not an acceptable Catholic because I disobey in this or that, I can only say I am following God’s will that I remain in the Church.

Trust me, my life - emotional, spiritual, intellectual, even physical - would be much easier if I could just leave and go join a different denomination. But I think I am a better person with the struggle - I wish I could simply accept everything at face value and go merrily along my way. But I can’t. I am who I am and simply cannot accept some things without understanding. So I go to confession, I seek priestly advice, I learn, I read, I research, I do what my conscience allows, I suffer from slights of those Catholics who are better than I am, and I wait. God isn’t done with me yet.

CJ

 

[TEPO]

In my opinion, someone might be called “liberal” after they’ve been given two or three reasons why the Church teaches or leans a certain way -but the person either cannot understand it, or simply chooses to reject the reasoning for some unknown reason.

But I don’t like categorizing Catholics personally. I just view the Church as a diverse group with various talents -all working our way towards a common goal.

 

[cradlecatholic5]

But I don’t like categorizing Catholics personally. I just view the Church as a diverse group with various talents -all working our way towards a common goal.

:thumbsup::clapping:

 

[Monte_RCMS]

So-called “liberal Catholics” come at me and after me all the time.

I don’t even know why they even bother using the word “Catholic”.

They have basically formed their own church.

The tenets of their “faith”:

*A universal God. Everybody goes to Heaven … Jesus was just a nice guy. No rules.

The Bible = women shaving their heads. Sleep-in on Sunday morning. Political correctness is all; abortion is just one of those icky things we don’t talk about. We don’t need priests; they have too many “issues”.*

Sorry for going on and on like this, but their feral neo-pagan philosophy kinda gets to ya after a while.

But then I listen to an inspiring preacher … Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen, for one. [Thanks be to God for YouTube!!] And a little light appears. Or, I go on some bus trip to some shrine place and there is a local parish priest who walks in The Light and … he anoints my head and my hands. Or, an old and tired & worn confessor who finds the one sentence in an infinity of possible choices that lift me up. Or a new young guy who is FULL of fire and The Spirit … like Michael Voris or Jimmy Akin.

 

[JM3]

John 14:15 - If you love me, keep my commandments.

How do you get “study my commandments and keep the ones you agree with and disregard the ones you don’t agree with” from this?

 

[Eric09]

The Bible = women shaving their heads.

…Huh? I don’t understand.

 

[ChibiViolet]

There are different contexts for the word liberal. In many ways I am liberal, but when it comes to what counts most, I am a conservative. This, however, has less to do with context and more to do with people making quick judgments, or so I think (it can be hard to tell.)

Anyway, I hope you’ve been doing LOTS of research on your questions and have been seeking out valid Catholic sources such as the CCC and Catholic Encyclopedia. I used to have a bunch of questions and so question–and worse than question, certain Catholic teachings–but then I looked up answers to my questions and now everything makes sense to me as far as Church teaching (that I know about) goes.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

…Huh? I don’t understand.

***Quote:
Originally Posted by Monte RCMS
The Bible = women shaving their heads.
…Huh? I don’t understand.

---

Seriously … do a Google search [lots of hits] … it is a real biggie for neo-pagans who choose to attack the Bible.

 

[Lochias]

Nice post, as always, Alan. I for one am a mixed bag. I do not like to be a sheep and do what I’m told just because I am “supposed” to.

Do you honestly think the Church makes doctrine and dogma “just because”, and that you’re “just supposed” to follow it?

Equally though, a lot of the Church’s teachings don’t make sense to me. Where I feel there is conflicting information or conflicting ideas about something, then I try and submit to Church authority and pray for better understanding. If I can’t understand the Church’s line on something at all, though, I simply cannot force myself to follow it.

Do you think that, just because you don’t currently understand a Church rule, you shouldn’t follow it? Why do you call yourself Catholic at all, if you’re unwilling to give yourself the time, patience, prayer and spiritual fortitude to continue to study what you don’t understand? Have you actually gone to all lengths to understand what seems to you to be nonsensical?

I try to be as good a Catholic as I can be but I simply do not come from a type of background that many of my fellow CAF posters seem to come from. I had no idea things like novenas even existed until I started posting on CAF. So I am clear that I have a lot to learn. I am in no rush, however, to amend myself, for I intend to understand everything as fully as I can before believing it.

Do you truly think that everything in life is meant to be fully understood? Didn’t that sort of thinking get Adam and Eve into hot water in the first place?

All this said, I am a confirmation catechist in the parish attached to my old school. This is a role I take very seriously indeed. I always present Church teaching rather than (or at the very least, alongside) my own views and try to stick to Church teaching whenever answering questions, as best as I know it

Admirable. Catechism classes really aren’t the place to air your doubts, however.

 

[Justicia_et_Pax]

Do you honestly think the Church makes doctrine and dogma “just because”, and that you’re “just supposed” to follow it?

I think you’re just taking offence unnecessarily. Or maybe my wording was poor. I do believe the Church takes a lot of time, effort and prayer in coming up with doctrine and dogma. I don’t think the Church says stuff for kicks. That said, it DOES seem to be the attitude on here (though of course that’s not necessarily entirely representative of the Church) that you have to believe and shut up. There is little room on this forum for questioning, which I like to do if I don’t currently agree with or understand something. So yes, if this forum is representative of the Church, it does seem that you’re “just supposed” to follow it unquestioningly.

Do you think that, just because you don’t currently understand a Church rule, you shouldn’t follow it? Why do you call yourself Catholic at all, if you’re unwilling to give yourself the time, patience, prayer and spiritual fortitude to continue to study what you don’t understand? Have you actually gone to all lengths to understand what seems to you to be nonsensical?

Why do you presume I have not thought, prayed and studied? Of course I have! I have many questions though and too little time. My health is another barrier. So I have to take the slow road with learning and reconciling Church teaching to myself.

As I believe I have already stated, I cannot force myself to believe something that I do not understand. I follow where I can but where I really do not believe, it is impossible for me to follow. I keep praying though for understanding and guidance though and am gradually going through my questions with my spiritual director

Do you truly think that everything in life is meant to be fully understood? Didn’t that sort of thinking get Adam and Eve into hot water in the first place?

I don’t believe everything in life is meant to be fully understood but I do believe doctrine has to be understood at SOME level in order to follow it wholeheartedly

Admirable. Catechism classes really aren’t the place to air your doubts, however.

There has not yet been a situation in which I have aired doubts. I was merely thinking of hypothetical situations where it might be useful to present multiple points of view, whilst always emphasising Church teaching and putting that first

 

[HillbillyHermit]

I guess in some ways I’m a liberal Catholic. I can’t stand how secular and Church society has to use labels, but it doesn’t look like they are going away any time soon.

Anyway, there are things I don’t understand or agree with, even after doing some reading on the subjects. I usually just leave 'em for later and pray that God will get through my thick skull, and try not to knowingly do anything rebellious to Church teachings.

And do you really not take sin seriously? Some think that if you reject that something is a sin, you don’t take sin seriously. Logically that makes no sense to me – if you didn’t take sin seriously then why bother questioning it, why not just wave it off?

People who really know me would say I take sin too seriously. I think it comes from having a strict father who dished out some strong punishments for breaking the rules. (Which most of the time my mother got me a “reduced sentence” for. Probably the reason for my strong devotion to Mary.) So now, even at 41, when I mess up I automatically think I’ve fallen from the state of grace before even taking time to determine the level of sinfulness.

So what is it? Are we liberal because we like to apply critical thinking instead of being lemmings, or are we liberal because we just plain refuse to let the Church tell us what to do?

In my limited-Church-educated opinion, if that’s liberal, so be it! We have freedom of conscience, which I know needs to be formed…so to me that means we finite, creatures wrestle with things from time to time. And in my limited reading about some of the Saints I have yet to read about one being born that way. They had to change their hearts and minds…and growth usually requires effort.

:tiphat:

 

[Chantal25]

Adam and Eve questioned God about the forbidden fruit, look what happened to all of us, we were borne with the original sin except for the Virgin Mary.

Maybe instead of using external resource to have your question answered, you could turn within and pray.

No offense but all the sub division of the Catholic faith started with people not agreeing with the Catholic church or bible and came up with their own Christian version.

I took that path also and didn’t resonate with some stories from the bible etc…but today more then ever, i know that the Pope are always guided by the Holy Spirit and i trust them fully and the Catholic bible is to be trusted.

Blessings and love!

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Why do you call yourself Catholic at all, if you’re unwilling to give yourself the time, patience, prayer and spiritual fortitude to continue to study what you don’t understand?

Please forgive my use of this question as an example. If a person is baptized Catholic, then no matter what they are or aren’t willing to do, to call herself Catholic is Truth, according to the Church, and calling herself a non-Catholic would then be a lie.

So to even suggest that she call herself anything other than Catholic, based on behavior, is against Church teachings. I know you were only asking and didn’t specifically call her a non-Catholic, but the implication is that one who isn’t sufficiently zealous cannot correctly call themselves Catholic.

Admirable. Catechism classes really aren’t the place to air your doubts, however.

Why not? I can’t think of a better time to ask questions, than when I’m in a class where they are teaching the answers to such questions. What would be a better time and place?

Alan

 

[Holly3278]

I used to consider myself to be a liberal Christian. I have never considered myself to be a liberal Catholic though except for one time and that was for a very temporary time. I regret having done so. That said, the reasons why I did this was because I wanted to commit sins that the Church said were sins. I wanted to excuse my own sinful behavior. Believe me, I am not proud of this. Indeed I deeply regret my sinful actions. I have confessed them in Confession too. But I say this because I believe some people do identify as liberal simply because doing so makes them feel less guilty about sinning. I am not saying that this is true of all liberals though.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I used to consider myself to be a liberal Christian. I have never considered myself to be a liberal Catholic though except for one time and that was for a very temporary time. I regret having done so. That said, the reasons why I did this was because I wanted to commit sins that the Church said were sins. I wanted to excuse my own sinful behavior. Believe me, I am not proud of this. Indeed I deeply regret my sinful actions. I have confessed them in Confession too. But I say this because I believe some people do identify as liberal simply because doing so makes them feel less guilty about sinning. I am not saying that this is true of all liberals though.

Aha! So what you’re saying, is the stereotype I painted at the beginning – of a “liberal” Catholic who is so to excuse your own behavior – actually did apply to you! So it isn’t always “just” a stereotype!

I appreciate your coming forth with this information, because it helps me understand both people who call others “liberals” and the people they are referring to.

Thanks again for your post. :tiphat:

Alan