Do liturgical details really matter that much?

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Beno

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I found myself trying to defend liturgical rubrics to a person belonging to a church that has a very charismatic priest who also takes quite a few liturgical liberties. The person I spoke with said in effect, “it’s still the Mass and as long as more people are joining the church and coming to Mass, then there is nothing wrong with the priest bending the rules. After all, they’re just details and not that important anyway”. (Examples of his rule bending: no genuflections at all to the tabernacle or bows to the altar, omitting the Gloria, no bow to the Eucharist immediately following the words of consecration, red altar cloth on Good Friday, omitted the Lamb of God, EMHC’s cleanse the vessels after Communion, a seated reading of the many Intercessory Prayers during Veneration of the Cross on Good Friday, no kneeling at all by anyone during Mass (they do have cushions), etc.)
Am I over-sensitive to liturgy done correctly, or do the details really matter? What are some reasons why liturgy done correctly is not only highly valued but is also mandated in official liturgical texts?
 
Here is a cut from the CCC, but I added the red, so you could see what I had in mind.
1123 "The purpose of the sacraments is to sanctify men, to build up the Body of Christ and, finally, to give worship to God. Because they are signs they also instruct. They not only presuppose faith, but by words and objects they also nourish, strengthen, and express it. That is why they are called ‘sacraments of faith.’"44
1124 The Church’s faith precedes the faith of the believer who is invited to adhere to it. When the Church celebrates the sacraments, she confesses the faith received from the apostles - whence the ancient saying: *lex orandi, lex credendi *(or: legem credendi lex statuat supplicandi, according to Prosper of Aquitaine [5th cent.]).45 The law of prayer is the law of faith: the Church believes as she prays. Liturgy is a constitutive element of the holy and living Tradition.46
1125 For this reason no sacramental rite may be modified or manipulated at the will of the minister or the community. Even the supreme authority in the Church may not change the liturgy arbitrarily, but only in the obedience of faith and with religious respect for the mystery of the liturgy.
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Your question brought this section of the Catechism straight to my mind.
 
Beno said:
I found myself trying to defend liturgical rubrics to a person belonging to a church that has a very charismatic priest who also takes quite a few liturgical liberties. The person I spoke with said in effect, “it’s still the Mass and as long as more people are joining the church and coming to Mass, then there is nothing wrong with the priest bending the rules. After all, they’re just details and not that important anyway”. (Examples of his rule bending: no genuflections at all to the tabernacle or bows to the altar, omitting the Gloria, no bow to the Eucharist immediately following the words of consecration, red altar cloth on Good Friday, omitted the Lamb of God, EMHC’s cleanse the vessels after Communion, a seated reading of the many Intercessory Prayers during Veneration of the Cross on Good Friday, no kneeling at all by anyone during Mass (they do have cushions), etc.)
Am I over-sensitive to liturgy done correctly, or do the details really matter? What are some reasons why liturgy done correctly is not only highly valued but is also mandated in official liturgical texts?
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What kind of church? Did someone there start their own “church”?
Are these “liberties” or Abuses?
Liturgical Abuses should be reported in the Catholic Church.

I can’t say I know much but this is clearly wrong.
 
Beno said:
I found myself trying to defend liturgical rubrics to a person belonging to a church that has a very charismatic priest who also takes quite a few liturgical liberties. The person I spoke with said in effect, “it’s still the Mass and as long as more people are joining the church and coming to Mass, then there is nothing wrong with the priest bending the rules. After all, they’re just details and not that important anyway”. (Examples of his rule bending: no genuflections at all to the tabernacle or bows to the altar, omitting the Gloria, no bow to the Eucharist immediately following the words of consecration, red altar cloth on Good Friday, omitted the Lamb of God, EMHC’s cleanse the vessels after Communion, a seated reading of the many Intercessory Prayers during Veneration of the Cross on Good Friday, no kneeling at all by anyone during Mass (they do have cushions), etc.)
Am I over-sensitive to liturgy done correctly, or do the details really matter? What are some reasons why liturgy done correctly is not only highly valued but is also mandated in official liturgical texts?
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Christ pretty much laid out the rationale:

“He who is faithful in a very little is faithful also in much; and he who is dishonest in a very little is dishonest also in much.
If then you have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will entrust to you the true riches?”

It has certainly been my own experience that where there are liturgical abuses there are also larger abuses and rejections of the faith.
 
Beno said:
After all, they’re just details and not that important anyway".
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I’ve heard this one before. :mad: Details not that important? If Michealangelo didn’t bother with details, what would the Sistine Chapel look like?

Love is in the details. It is only when we pay attention to everything, including the details that we create a work of art.

What sort of worship is the Mass if the priest does not reverently attend to all the details?
 
VociMike said:
Christ pretty much laid out the rationale:

“He who is faithful in a very little is faithful also in much; and he who is dishonest in a very little is dishonest also in much.
If then you have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will entrust to you the true riches?”

It has certainly been my own experience that where there are liturgical abuses there are also larger abuses and rejections of the faith.
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Ditto. These so called small abuses are the very elements that comprise worship, praise, love and reverence to Our Lord. Without them what have you got?
 
VociMike said:
Christ pretty much laid out the rationale:

“He who is faithful in a very little is faithful also in much; and he who is dishonest in a very little is dishonest also in much.
If then you have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will entrust to you the true riches?”

It has certainly been my own experience that where there are liturgical abuses there are also larger abuses and rejections of the faith.
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VociMike hit the nail on the head here.

Also, going back in time, liturgical details were VERY important. i.e. Don’t touch the Ark of the covenant. Or the Jewish high priests having a rope tied around their leg so if they “screwed up” in the holy of holies, the other priests could pull out the dead body.

We worship God the way he wants, not the way we want, even if it draws larger crowds.
 
The person I spoke with said in effect, “it’s still the Mass and as long as more people are joining the church and coming to Mass, then there is nothing wrong with the priest bending the rules. After all, they’re just details and not that important anyway”.
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Well, I wonder how this person would feel if his doctor, dentist, banker, auto mechanic, etc., etc., felt the same way and “bent the rules” on all the little details. Would he still feel that the rules are “not that important”?

I don’t know about your friend, but I want my priest to follow the rules just as much as I want my dentist to autoclave the tools he uses in my mouth, instead of giving them a swish in soapy water. I want my priest to follow the rubrics of the mass just as much as I want my banker to properly handle my money.

A priest who abuses the mass by not following proper liturgical norms is just as wrong as an auto mechanic who doesn’t bother to use the right parts on your car. Why a priest should be given a pass but not the auto mechanic is beyond me. :confused:

Everyone should strive to do their job properly and well, and that includes priests celebrating the mass.
 
Beno said:
Am I over-sensitive to liturgy done correctly, or do the details really matter? What are some reasons why liturgy done correctly is not only highly valued but is also mandated in official liturgical texts?
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You are right to be upset by this. Liturgical abuses are a problem. The nature of liturgy- the beauty of liturgy- is that it follows the rules. Beauty and creativity can be found while still keeping within the rules- many great artists, architects, and composers have made beautiful works of art- while staying well within the boundries of their chosen style. Liturgy is an art form that involves all other art forms- and it isn’t abstract art. The liturgy is beautiful because of the rules- so yes, the rules are important- and you should be as upset when a priest breaks the rules as you would be if someone played around with a work of art or musical composition at a time when they should have been serious about it.

However…as I have said many times…do not let yourself get so concerned about the rules that you forget what they are about. Do not be so concerned about how the liturgy is done that you forget to pray, or that you fail to show charity to others. The rules are important- but they should be followed every time. We should not think about them- we shouldn’t have to think about them. We should be able to go to Mass, assuming everything will be done correctly.
 
kms123 said:
What kind of church? Did someone there start their own “church”?
Are these “liberties” or Abuses?
Liturgical Abuses should be reported in the Catholic Church.

I can’t say I know much but this is clearly wrong.
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Oh the Church is definitely Catholic. God bless everyone one of our priests but every now and then there seem to be a few that choose to do things their own way and are not held accountable. As an example, a previous Bishop put out a letter demanding that every Catholic Church in this Diocese have kneelers and that they be used. I have no idea why this priest refuses to at least have his congregation use the cushions that are available. I hate to say it, but I think the priest holds some sort of sway in terms of either monetary income or rising membership and so is allowed to get away with what he does. It could also be that members of his parish love him and everything he does so much so that no one has reported the priest’s liturgical “liberties” to the Bishop.
 
The word catholic means universal. The reason for the rubrics is because all the masses should be the same as we are a universal church. The mass also joins Jesus in His sacrifice on the cross.

Also, there is the question of obedience. We have an obligation to be obedient to the teachings and the leadership of the church. If this priest is changing the mass however he wants, he is not obedient to the magesterium.

Finally, the mass belongs to the universal church not to any one priest. He has no right to make these changes.
 
tcraig said:
Well, I wonder how this person would feel if his doctor, dentist, banker, auto mechanic, etc., etc., felt the same way and “bent the rules” on all the little details. Would he still feel that the rules are “not that important”?

I don’t know about your friend, but I want my priest to follow the rules just as much as I want my dentist to autoclave the tools he uses in my mouth, instead of giving them a swish in soapy water. I want my priest to follow the rubrics of the mass just as much as I want my banker to properly handle my money.
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I don’t think the rubrics of the mass should be changed, but consider this:
I don’t want my dentist, banker, doctor or auto mechanic to use
“following the rules” as an excuse for not doing the right thing and thinking for themselves, either.
In my profession I can loose my job, my license, kill someone or go to jail if I blindly follow orders rather than stopping to think if something doesn’t look right, even if it means my higher ups are mad at me for the inconvience. The bottom line is doing the right thing, not blindly following orders or culturally based man made precepts. Anything man made is fallable.
I have a problem/ personal weakness with blind obedience to that which is fallable.
 
VAC said:
Liturgical abuses lead to rejection of the faith how??
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The Church has understood from ancient times lex orandi, lex credendi (the law of prayer is the law of belief).

As a hypothetical example, irreverent treatment of the consecration of the Eucharist, and of the Eucharist itself, would surely be inclined to reduce belief in the Real Presence.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lex_orandi%2C_lex_credendi

Here is what (former) Cardinal Ratzinger had to say on the matter:

I am convinced that the crisis in the Church that we are experiencing today is to a large extent due to the disintegration of the liturgy, which at times has even come to be conceived of etsi Deus non daretur: in that it is a matter of indifference whether or not God exists and whether or not He speaks to us and hears us. But when the community of faith, the world-wide unity of the Church and her history, and the mystery of the living Christ are no longer visible in the liturgy, where else, then, is the Church to become visible in her spiritual essence? Then the community is celebrating only itself, an activity that is utterly fruitless. And, because the ecclesial community cannot have its origin from itself but emerges as a unity only from the Lord, through faith, such circumstances will inexorably result in a disintegration into sectarian parties of all kinds - partisan opposition within a Church tearing herself apart. This is why we need a new Liturgical Movement, which will call to life the real heritage of the Second Vatican Council. Milestones: Memoirs 1927-1977 (SF, CA: Ignatius), p. 149.
 
I agree that the liturgical details really matter a lot for the reasons given by previous posters. Still, I think there can be exceptions. For instance, it is my understanding (perhaps I am wrong) that the homily should be based upon or address the bible readings during that Mass. Generally I strongly agree with this. But at the Sunday mass immediately following 9/11, only the readings were addressed and except for a brief “pray for them” nothing was said about this event. I left Mass saddened and with a feeling of not receiving much comfort or perspective on the horrible events that were touching us all. Others I have spoken with had the same sense of having our spiritual needs at that moment ignored. Prudential judgements in special situations need to be made even at the risk of deviating from some liturgical prescription.
 
VAC said:
I don’t think the rubrics of the mass should be changed, but consider this:
I don’t want my dentist, banker, doctor or auto mechanic to use
“following the rules” as an excuse for not doing the right thing and thinking for themselves, either.
In my profession I can loose my job, my license, kill someone or go to jail if I blindly follow orders rather than stopping to think if something doesn’t look right, even if it means my higher ups are mad at me for the inconvience. The bottom line is doing the right thing, not blindly following orders or culturally based man made precepts. Anything man made is fallable.
I have a problem/ personal weakness with blind obedience to that which is fallable.
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I’m not sure how a priest correctly following the rubrics of the mass results in him not being able to think for himself.

It is true that we should not blindly follow orders, if they go against faith or morals, but that certainly doesn’t apply to a priest celebrating the mass correctly.
 
tcraig said:
I’m not sure how a priest correctly following the rubrics of the mass results in him not being able to think for himself.
It is true that we should not blindly follow orders, if they go against faith or morals, but that certainly doesn’t apply to a priest celebrating the mass correctly.
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My post was more directed at your comments about wanting professionals you do buisness with to only follow rules vs. thinking for themselves. (Sorry if I wasn’t clear.)
If what they were doing were something a monkey could do by just following instructions, there would be no reason to use them. You could just read the instructions and fix your own car or teeth.

I don’t think a priest should change the rubrics of the mass, and I cringe when I read some of these posts where this is done.
 
VAC said:
My post was more directed at your comments about wanting professionals you do buisness with to only follow rules vs. thinking for themselves. (Sorry if I wasn’t clear.)
If what they were doing were something a monkey could do by just following instructions, there would be no reason to use them. You could just read the instructions and fix your own car or teeth.

I don’t think a priest should change the rubrics of the mass, and I cringe when I read some of these posts where this is done.
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Okay, I understand you now. 🙂

I used the example I did because it amazes me how so many people seem to brush off liturgical abuses (i.e. not following “the rules”) yet they would be quite upset if a bank played fast and loose with the rules regarding their deposit.

Rules/instructions/guidelines/rubrics are put in place for a reason, and should not be lightly dismissed. That doesn’t mean that one can’t or shouldn’t use their best judgement (think for themselves) in an emergency or highly unusual situation, but for the most part they should be followed.
 
tcraig said:
Okay, I understand you now. 🙂

Rules/instructions/guidelines/rubrics are put in place for a reason, and should not be lightly dismissed. That doesn’t mean that one can’t or shouldn’t use their best judgement (think for themselves) in an emergency or highly unusual situation, but for the most part they should be followed.
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I suppose most masses do not occur under emergencies or highly unusual situations, but keep reading, I bet someone will come up with some:D
 
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